n00b filtering

[Tyhm]

I've been told repeatedly to Move this discussion; perhaps here is a safe place? Apparently I offend by discussing it in Shop threads and Newbie threads, though I feel it has a bearing on both.

We all hate n00bs, yes? Obnoxious little twerps who don't read the simplest instructions, register for the forums, and yak our ear off about how they want someone to make them a really cool yoda light saber, only they want theirs with a bright red metallic grip like Iron Man's armor, and the blade should be, I don't know, purple. And they don't want to solder anything themselves, and they don't want to learn Ohm's law, and they don't own any power tools, and they don't want to spend very much money.

So let's get rid of them.

There are of course two ways to get rid of n00bs: Filtering and Matriculation. Matriculation is always the favorite: Turn n00bs into Newbies, then into Novices, then into fully functioning members of the community. But some n00bs aren't interested in doing things properly, and those ones we would just as soon have them pay Tim for a bunch of crap they don't need and leave.

How should this be done?

[tangent]While I yield to all of your experience in ALL manners technical, I might humbly suggest that, as a n00b myself, I might have a useful perspective on this issue. I recently undertook the ordeal of trying to figure out what I need and how much it will cost to make what I want; with no small amount of gracious help from Causa, Rhyen Skytracker, and even Strydur himself (with some added encouragement by Sunrider), I've concluded that I need to save about $87 just to light my rig the way I want...but as thankful as I am, it should not have come to that. Perhaps I am merely a very defective n00b, the sort that ought to be filtered away from the community; perhaps I will become a contributing member someday, it is not for me to say - but I am here now, posting and possibly annoying you, so I am neither filtered nor matriculated, and this is a problem that could be resolved![/tangent]

Step 1: Filtering.
Some n00bs don't want to learn how to solder, or what Ohm's law is, or the difference between Seoul or Luxeon IIIs or Rebel Stars; they just want their light saber to be awesome, and preferably cheap.
I say we give them what they want and get them on their way. The kits are a good start, but don't go far enough: n00bs are still encouraged to come here and annoy us with ceaseless searchless questions on "Why would I want a buckpuck, what size resistor do I need?" And I'm sorry, but "Check the resistor diagram" is a bit dated; what exactly is a K2 LED, and why are they still listed?
My humble suggestion is to make the kits more comprehensive. If you want a red LED kit, here's the best one, it costs this much, comes with twist caps so you don't even have to solder. If you want a green LED kit, this one's cheaper, this one's more efficient, take it and leave, don't bother the forumites. The smaller heat sink included so you won't come crying when it burns out. Either they have to get the right buckpuck and lens for their LED, or there's a bulletpoint explanation of the pros and cons right next to the dropdown box.
If any n00b bothers registering when they have so simple a solution presented before them, there's probably no help for them. But I can't fault those of us that come here when the shop practically screams "Go ask the forum what the difference is"

Step 2: Matriculation

This one's pretty simple; replace the link on the main page that goes to the "What kind of light saber do you want?" tutorial with the "Just make it already n00bs!" tutorial. Seriously, if you dump people in the index of a forum that suggests making an EL saber I don't think you can be surprised when they wind up confused...
If they can make their first saber from step by step "Buy this one, buy this one" instructions, they can go on to bigger and better things. (Although even that tutorial could use some fine tuning in terms of mA and LED choices; has the inventory changed since it was written? I'll go there next...)

My apologies for taking up your time. If you are annoyed, consider me as a slime that oozed into your dining room; you can be upset that I'm here, or you can follow my trail to the pipe that brought me here and do something about that. I'd much sooner none of us had to contend with n00bs, myself included...

[Shadar Al'Niende]

I have been reading your posts lately regarding this subject. The following is all I have to say on the matter:

I was a "newb" when approaching this site (the store is what i found first.) I hit the "Please visit the Forums with over 2,500 members and 139,000 posts on how to build sabers" link and ended up on these forums.

I had plenty of questions, ALL OF WHICH WERE ANSWERED BY MY INITIAL SEARCHING. I read the Start Here section. (which seemed to me to be the sensible place to start) I read through the different sub-boards starting with New to the saber scene? Start Here After all, i was new right? I read through all of those threads, started at the top and worked my way down.

That pretty much answered most of my questions, but the ones that it didn't i started browsing through the forums for. When i came here, i had 0 electronics experience besides maybe installing ram in my motherboard. I had never soldered, did not own a soldering iron, drill and tap, drill, dremel, mulitmeter...etc etc etc (all of which i currently own) I had no clue about led technology, what a resistor was used for (besides maybe to resist something?) or the difference between a latching and momentary switch.

Not once have i been flamed for a stupid n00b question (although maybe i should have been a little slower to ask before searching at times) and NOT ONCE did i find it difficult to find the answers i was looking for. I came here and strove to better the hobby not simply entrench myself in selfish, childish behaviors. I did not come here to simply obtain a single solitary saber that i had someone build for me. that is not what this forum is for.

THIS IS A DO IT YOURSELF FORUM, A FORUM TO LEARN HOW TO CONSTRUCT YOUR OWN LIGHTSABERS. THIS IS CLEARLY A HOBBY SITE FOR THOSE WHO WISH TO BUILD CUSTOM SABERS AS A HOBBY.

That being said, we are happy in this community to assist those who only want to build themselves one saber, or upgrade an existing one. But we WILL not spoon feed or coddle those who do not want to think for themselves or whine about how hard things are. If you do not like it? There are plenty of other forums out there which will suit your needs better than this one.

I love building lightsabers. It is a hobby and a passion for me. I love helping others develop a love for this hobby/passion as well. I do not however, love listening to people whine about how difficult something is because they do not possess the fortitude or character to follow something through to the end despite its level of difficulty.

I am not some special case or someone who magically was intelligent enough to figure things out and got lucky by not getting flamed. I am your average, somewhat intelligent human male who generally thinks twice before doing something, and knows how to logically asses and solve a problem. ANYONE CAN BE SUCCESSFUL HERE.

We do not need a "plan" for how to deal with n00bs. If someone is not willing to contribute to this community in a positive, constructive and creative manner, IMO they do not deserve the time i would waste to "filter" them. When people such as this show up, they are ignored, or scorned, and eventually leave. [/rant]

[Tyhm]

That's nice.

[cardcollector]

Why don't you tell us how you really feel about N00bs.

[Tyhm]

In a perfect world we wouldn't have any. Some people attack the cause, others attack the effect. So it goes. I assume I'm on course regarding the common goals here? We would rather have the n00bs streak on past without bothering us? If we're more concerned about n00bs showing up to our cons with knockoff kit-sabers I can understand the hostility, but barring that, what's the big deal if it means money flowing into the community?

[Lord Maul]

For the most part, I agree with Shadar. This is a DIY forum, not a spoon feeding site.

Per the idea to change the first thread in new to the saber scene... I would say no to that. Here's my logic. Say you are writing a very large essay on something. You go into it with one idea most of the time, but often you are proven wrong by research. You have to spend a while researching the entire expanse of the topic, not just one narrow aspect. True knowledge of something comes from knowing all aspects of it (light side and dark side type deal).

If we put a link that says in effect, "here is a way to build a saber, you don't have to learn ANYTHING else at all, just follow these steps," then the n00bs won't learn anything. Having that thread be the first thing that they read will actually make them more prone to asking dumb questions later on.

This is not to say that I think that LDM's thread is a bad thing, I personally like it. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be the first thing they read. You have to get some background on the basics of a subject before you jump in. If you just go in following a tutorial for a very specific type of saber, you will stumble later on.

Maybe I'm off my rocker, it has happened before. It's just how I think about it. I am the one who continually updates those new to the saber scene threads, so I know that they are VERY informative and give great basics on nearly every aspect of saber building. If you read all of those threads and retain the knowledge the second you join, you will be better off than if you just follow a checklist thread.

[Tyhm]

Very well, I stand corrected. I had felt that the idea was to get sabers into hands and money into the coffers at all costs; I can respect a community that values personal growth and technical learning over a quick and easy "Here's your saber" marketplace.

Besides, it works way better for flavor; you're not a Jedi until you've made your own lightsaber.
___

That said: I'm not here to make a lightsaber, I'm here because this is the premier source for parts and, blasphemy though it may be, I wanna make a beam katana for cosplay. So should we be trying to funnel everyone that gets referred here into the tao of buckpuck, or should we be filtering out all but the most serious Jedi?

For that matter, why have a tutorial at all if we're not interested in making it easier on people?

[Lord Maul]

Tutorials are there to show people how to do basic wiring. Pictures are always helpful for stuff like that. We do want to help people, just not spoon feed them. There is a fine line between the two.

[Count Malik]

Tutorials are there to show people how to do basic wiring. Pictures are always helpful for stuff like that. We do want to help people, just not spoon feed them. There is a fine line between the two.

Pefictly said! On a personal note... we all start somewhere... 3 years ago i also wonderd into this place seeing hilt sections and wired star looking things (latter i would find out that those are the LEDs xD) i was confused... but i may have within my first build, the first few months of joining asked about 3-6 questions total but i had to do my homework (apart from highschool home work, im 15 yrs old) which included alot of reading and printing! lol Now there is alot to read ,in which is all very important... But its not impossible and there is always new things you will learn throughout this hobby... point beaing im 15 years old and ive built all my own sabers (except 1) including a CF (Crystal Focus) lightsaber... all this was accoplished through ALL reading... it takes dedication, but tell me one hobby that doesn't!?

[Tyhm]

Yes, and given my background in electronics I get it, I feel quite confident in my own ability to make whatever it is I like, given sufficient funds. I can also program the Commodore 64/128 using nothing but the 600 page technical manual that was packaged with it. It's a hardcore way to do things, but it's not an easy way to do things.
If you guys don't wanna make it easy for newbies to get in, spend their money, and get out, that's fine by me; but if you ever decide you DO want to make it easier, adding descriptions to the shop items and filling in the dimensions would be a good start. "This is a 700mA resistor. It goes with the ____ LED. It wastes a lot of energy relative to the other options. It can be replaced with the buckpuck (700mA), the variable driver, or [possibly?] the soundcard, depending on what features you like." It'd be Easier than saying "Rebel star LED. Available in blue and green" for a novice to follow, but that doesn't seem to be the goal, so never mind.

I wonder why we don't go the other way. A light saber is made up of a power crystal, a focusing crystal (which determines blade length and color), and hilt, isn't it? If we want to make it an ordeal and keep the headcount down, why not obfuscate the hell out of it? -_-