Mastery

[Ty_Bomber]

There's a difference between a noob and a new guy. I was new to this once. But I didn't bark a every talented smith on his site to give me an online apprenticeship for free either. I lurked, I read, I googled if necessary. This is a DO IT YOURSELF HOBBY. There's more than enough information on here to build your sabers. You dont HAVE to ask, it's a waste of EVERYONE'S time (including yours) to ask. All you have to do is READ. You're going to do it anyway, why not do the research first? Every question I've ever had was answered before I ever opened my mouth. That's not to say that I won't have questions in the future, but I know that when that day comes, I'll get good advice because it's a good question, and i DID MY RESEARCH FIRST. Demanding the experienced people on these forums to write a 12 step program for you on a site that already contains the relevant information and then calling them patronizing, rude, whatever, is like walking into a library and asking the LIBRARIAN to tell you how to build a house. It makes you seem lazy, rude, and ignorant.

As for the responses to my original comment, go read the rules and regulations. No necroposting. Also, don't claim all the smiths are patronizing because I made a friendly (if snarky) comment about not necroposting because they have nothing to do with me. I'm no smith, I'm just a learner, like most of the people here. I'm nothing but grateful for the information theyve shared with all of us, and they deserve our respect. I you have problems with the rules and regulations, you shouldn't have checked the little box that says "I agree to the terms of use."

Rant over.

[TuxedoCartman]

There's a difference between a noob and a new guy. I was new to this once. But I didn't bark a every talented smith on his site to give me an online apprenticeship for free either. I lurked, I read, I googled if necessary. This is a DO IT YOURSELF HOBBY. There's more than enough information on here to build your sabers. You dont HAVE to ask, it's a waste of EVERYONE'S time (including yours) to ask. All you have to do is READ. You're going to do it anyway, why not do the research first? Every question I've ever had was answered before I ever opened my mouth. That's not to say that I won't have questions in the future, but I know that when that day comes, I'll get good advice because it's a good question, and i DID MY RESEARCH FIRST. Demanding the experienced people on these forums to write a 12 step program for you on a site that already contains the relevant information and then calling them patronizing, rude, whatever, is like walking into a library and asking the LIBRARIAN to tell you how to build a house. It makes you seem lazy, rude, and ignorant.

As for the responses to my original comment, go read the rules and regulations. No necroposting. Also, don't claim all the smiths are patronizing because I made a friendly (if snarky) comment about not necroposting because they have nothing to do with me. I'm no smith, I'm just a learner, like most of the people here. I'm nothing but grateful for the information theyve shared with all of us, and they deserve our respect. I you have problems with the rules and regulations, you shouldn't have checked the little box that says "I agree to the terms of use."

Rant over.

<applauds>

[psab keel]

I would have assumed that my last statement would have summed up how I felt about this hobby and the saber building community. I've seen some newcomers who entered this place and blown us away with their ingenuity and imagination, and I've seen some veterans who ran their mouths about how great they were and yet their skills don't back up their claims. The point is that arrogance runs both ways.

Veterans have to temper their experience with patience for the enthusiasm from new members. New members have to temper their enthusiasm with the experience from veterans. Make sense? As has been stated though, this is a do it yourself hobby and there is no excuse for a new member to expect to be spoon fed from those that have the know how.

I wasn't stating my length of involvement in the hobby as a means to brag about it. I simply have confidence in my abilities because of years of experience. There's a difference. I don't consider myself a master builder, nor would I be self centered enough to think that my work is the best that has ever been made. But if I debunk a concept that is presented from a new member because I've tried it and it doesn't work, I'm simply trying to save that member's time and energy (and in some cases money.) If I ask a new member to read or use the search function to answer a question that has been answered ad nauseum.... you get the point.

All that veterans really are asking for from new comers is that they show some initiative. If this forum (or any other saber building forum) was as unwelcoming to newcomers as some claim, then these sites wouldn't have the amount of users that they do and would have died out years ago.

[Ty_Bomber]

Just to clarify, Zekk, I wasn't trying to jump down your throat or target you specifically. My original comment was meant to be just jesting, but it doesn't always translate in text. Sorry if I didn't come across as very friendly. I know your comments were innocent enough. Just trying to clarify the rules (which should be followed) but not be too serious about it.

[Lucien Kane]

I think we forget that this is first and foremost a business, so anyone who hairflips out of here is a customer that Tim is losing to me that is disrespectful to Tim, and not conducive to a business environment. As someone who has been a shift manager at a grocery store, I know the importance of smiling and gritting your teeth when a customer is being difficult. If you do things right, that customer can still be ticked at you, and still give you there money, but you have to be nice even when they are being difficult. I know I wouldn't tolerate people coming into my business and trashing my customers or making them feel unwelcome... Why is this okay online?

I'm sorry, I am attempting to be as tactful as possible, so understand that I am attempting to disagree without being disagreeable, but the question what does dueling have to do with building sabers? Really? What is the blade in your saber made out of? My blades are made out of polycarbonate.... This material is made to take a beating, lets face it, these sabers are made for dueling, so I don't see how dueling isn't relevant. The Staged combat for fan films and sparring side for us martial artists is what draws many of us to the saber world.

As far as using the search function I am not the most computer savvy, but I do know how to type in the question I want answered. I have searched out many of my dumb questions here, and there are so many threads I rarely find what I'm looking for. Mind is you this is after searching through over 10 pages of threads, this site is not small. So I can see why there are a lot of repeat questions. I don't understand why it is so hard to just answer them nicely. I have taught martial arts, I also work as a Jr. High leader at the Church I go to... All I do is answer the same questions over and over again, so maybe it just doesn't make sense to me for that reason.

Here's the issue, what makes us think people are hostile with new people who are ignorant to building sabers... which I count myself among those ranks.

1. It isn't okay to question the status quo. If something gets asked too much, it becomes a taboo subject, that is not to be mentioned.

2. The multiple threads complaining about noobs. I feel I tread on thin ice on a few different forums, and it always seems to come down to the fact that you just shouldn't ask questions.

3. This clique-y atmosphere perpetuated by a few different saber communities. This community uses this sound card exclusively, while this one won't touch any technology made by these other guys. It's so sad, I see a lot of things I like from many different sites, and I feel like I get looked at sideways when I post my parksaber somewhere. It's like we can't handle anything new coming around because it isn't made by that guy that we always use.

I think the main thing we forget is that this is all thanks to George Lucas, he knows about the various saber businesses out there and he lets us do our thing! He could issue a cease and desist anytime he wanted, but he lets us play in his galaxy. I honestly hope he doesn't read some of the stuff that goes on on some of these sites because I think he'd put a stop to the whole saber thing. It may be ridiculous, but I sometimes worry about this.

Once again, when it comes to building sabers I am an ignorant noob. I have a ton of stupid questions, and if I didn't know several really polite and nice sabersmiths I would never have started my first scratch build. So I apologize if any of my post sounds stand offish, but from a purely business perspective I can't believe some of the things that are said to potential customers.

[psab keel]

Lucien, you are correct in pointing out that this is a business, but you also have to understand that no one on the forums (at least to my knowledge) is an employee of Tim. Because of this fact alone no one here is being paid to post answers to peoples questions. Posting anything in the forums is voluntary.

You're addressing several different subjects here:

1. There is nothing wrong with questioning things, but if the question has been asked repeatedly and the answer is in a thread that has been highlighted, then we encourage our new members to read through those threads to learn. Nothing wrong with suggesting a person do some research.

2. I'm not aware of "newb trashing threads" and I certainly wouldn't want to be a part of it because there is no need for that. I think what many of us express is a frustration with newcomers who feel entitled to be given answers when they could find them through time spent reading and learning. If you still can't find an answer for your questions then PM someone, or start a new thread explaining where you've searched and what you are looking for, and more often than not you'll get the answers you're looking for. A lot of times veterans of the forums will send a reply with a direct link to where you can read the answer to your question, or the thread where it can be found in. If a student doesn't do their homework, how can a teacher expect their students to grow? Make sense? Same principle applies. Veterans have the experience to back up their claims but have no obligation to have to sit down and teach someone everything they know just because someone demands it. If a newcomer shows initiative then we are more than happy to help, but that means the new guy/ gal has to show that they've put a bit of effort into it.

3. Many alliances have been made and been broken in the saber community over the years. That is an entirely different topic altogether. For the purposes of this forum though, I'd say that following the rules of this forum (number one: to NOT post any outside sources for parts or sabers which would take away from TCSS's business) will help tremendously.

It's not the intent of any of the forum members, or any member of the saber community to make new comers feel unwelcome. But again, the point comes down to new members who come into our community and feel entitled to be spoon fed. That is why older members get frustrated with new ones when they expect things. Show us respect by showing that you've researched for answers, and if you can't find it, then we will respectfully help you as best we can.

[TuxedoCartman]

I'm sorry, I am attempting to be as tactful as possible, so understand that I am attempting to disagree without being disagreeable, but the question what does dueling have to do with building sabers? Really? What is the blade in your saber made out of? My blades are made out of polycarbonate.... This material is made to take a beating, lets face it, these sabers are made for dueling, so I don't see how dueling isn't relevant. The Staged combat for fan films and sparring side for us martial artists is what draws many of us to the saber world.

Crafting a saber that can withstand the rigors of dueling is very relevant to this board. Your ability and prowess at dueling has no relevancy at all. Do you see the difference? This is a board to assist people in BUILDING things. Just because you're a good driver doesn't mean I want you disassembling and reassembling my engine, to use an automotive analogy.

As far as using the search function I am not the most computer savvy, but I do know how to type in the question I want answered. I have searched out many of my dumb questions here, and there are so many threads I rarely find what I'm looking for. Mind is you this is after searching through over 10 pages of threads, this site is not small. So I can see why there are a lot of repeat questions. I don't understand why it is so hard to just answer them nicely. I have taught martial arts, I also work as a Jr. High leader at the Church I go to... All I do is answer the same questions over and over again, so maybe it just doesn't make sense to me for that reason.

You're almost there. Seriously, you're within spitting distance of getting my point. Now, ask yourself... WHY is it so hard to find answers on this board? Why are there so many threads to have to sift through? Read what I wrote just two pages back on this same thread, about how noobs treat the forums as a chat-room.

Do you see? Do you get it now? It's not all about individual respect; it's the fact that every time they ask the same questions over and over again, it clutters the forum up even further, making it more difficult for not just veterans but beginners especially to find the answers they need. Your analogy of working as a greeter at a church would only be apt if the questions that people peppered you with over and over again actually piled up around the door, making it difficult for anyone to get in. The forums wouldn't be littered with repeat questions IF noobs took the time to properly read, rather than jumping on and throwing out a worn-out question they EXPECT an answer to. Do you get it? If I'm looking for one particular answer regarding resistors on accent LEDs, I don't want to have to wade through 1,500 threads all telling noobs they don't need a resistor for the main LED on a PC. Now noobs aren't just wasting the time of veterans by refusing to do research, they're wasting my time (and the time of anyone half-way responsible) as well.

THIS is why reading is encouraged, and noobs who show no inclination towards even trying to do so are not looked well upon by others here (though it's still a far cry from saying they're "mistreated" or "attacked". The restraint shown here is astounding, in my opinion). Like psab keel said before me, suggesting someone do a bit of research is hardly an attack. If you feel that that someone telling you to read a bit more is being mean, then friend... you've got bigger problems in life than not getting a saber to work right.

As for losing business? Personally, I think I'd be more afraid of potential builders looking at a cluttered mess of a forum, thinking "There is no way I could build something like that. Oh well..." and leaving, than I would be over losing the long-term business of someone without the attention span necessary to read a single page worth of directions, or even take the time to read the descriptions of items in the store. I'm sorry if it's harsh to say, but if a customer is too stupid to figure out what a blade retention screw is used for, then they won't be exactly be wiring up any Petit Croutons anytime soon.

(Side note of no relevance really to the main topic at hand: actually, George Lucas would love nothing more than to shut down the fan prop sites. However, so long as businesses don't use trademarked terms [e.g. Star Wars, lightsaber, etc...] he can't do a thing about it. Ever notice that's why Parks Sabers doesn't have names attached to clearly identifiable movie replica sabers? That's also why this is The Custom SABER Shop, not The Custom Lightsaber Shop. Go talk with some of the older 501st guys about the headaches they've gotten from Lucas over the years trying to shut down anyone who built Stormtrooper armor to sell; they've borne the brunt of Lucas's legal department more than anyone else for a long time.)

[ARKM]

I think some of you are missing a couple of points.

1. When a person asks a question that has already been answered in several other threads by making a new thread for their question, the damage has already been done. The redundant thread has already been created. Therefore no matter how you reply to the "noob" or whether or not you reply at all is irrelevant. The thread is now there and will always be there. People are gonna reply in different ways but nothing will stop that thread from being there and being the clutter that it is. You might want to keep that in mind when choosing how to reply to it.

2. When you reply to a "noob" question, there are different ways to go about it. In fact there are several different ways to say the same exact thing and some of those ways can be rude and/or insulting where other ways can be polite and constructive.

I have seen rude, insulting, polite and contructive replies to questions here and on other forums. Being rude or insulting is not helpful, it's "bashing" and is basically a way for the person who is doing said bashing, to vent his/her frustration on the "noob" in question. If you are that frustrated with the question being asked that the only reply you can give is rude or insulting, how about not replying at all? It doesn't matter if I know the answer and am not a participant in the thread, when people are rude and insulting to people just asking questions, it upsets me. There's really no call for it and it will get you nowhere even though you may think otherwise. If one is compelled to reply, all one has to do, in a polite/constructive way, is explain to the person who asked the question that they need to read the stickies and use the Search function. That's it. You don't even have to spoon feed them any links. Just be nice about how you go about replying to the question. It's really not that hard. If you are upset at the noobness or lazyness of the question, cuss them out, out loud or in your head and then reply nicely, lol.

[Invisas1979]

Funny how life is swings and roundabouts.

I remember this thread when I was new to the forum and felt like I feel now. Being talked to in a way which seems like you're being talked down to is not nice; that said after reading the amount of threads which begin, I've searched but I can't find, help please, I'm a newb/noob etc etc etc I understand why people get annoyed.

I also understand why people with Grand Master blah blah blah or Darth whatever are not welcomed as avidly as they might be otherwise; especially when it's backed up by "can someone help me find a 3w led in the shop, i've searched everywhere on the forum" and doh, it's in the shop not the forum, sorry...... you get my point.

As for bashing, I was bashed a lot at school, verbally physically and mentally. It made me who I am today, without it I hate to think how I might have turned out. I'd probably cry if anyone ever had a go at me, be that verbally or physically. Personally if you ask a question which you can find the answers to, it's out of sheer laziness and there is nothing worse for someone who has slogged his guts out to create a thread which might give you that information. So suck it up and stop being so lazy.

After being on this site for a few years, I've asked a stupid question or three and I learnt from the answers, even if I did get the hump with some of the answers.

I don't look at this site as often as I used to but I can tell you this, it seems that new threads are started more often which cover old ground. That bores me to death so I stop looking.

I see less and less fresh ideas, new sabers and designs than I did a year ago. Is this the economic climate or are people posting less; if so why?

I have done some saber making and consider myself very much a noob even if I'm not new to the forum. I understand why the olde guard and other saber smiths get the hump, it's because they've forgotten more about making sabers than most of us know and they deserve some respect for that.

In regards to being a Jedi or Sith, if you wanna be one or act out a role fair play, join the Rebel Legion or 501st and help out. But this forum is about sabers and everything involved in designing them and making them. I wanna hear more about that.

Everyone has an ego, there are those who keep it in check, those who like to have their ego's massaged and those who simply let theirs run riot. The last ones are the ones who like starting inflamatory conversation and they don't last long around here.

Get talking about sabers, otherwise "move along, there's nothing to see here"

[Lucien Kane]

Believe it or not I do understand why people who have been doing this would get irritated with the same old questions over and over again. Once again, I was a Marine, so I went through the same cycle of getting new guys and having to teach them the same thing over and over again. I did it though, and no the questions don't pile up as they do on a forum, but even so. I wanted to know how well a covertec clip stays on your belt through rigorous activity, because I carry my saber on a daily basis, and I ride a motorcycle and I work with Jr. High kids, so the last thing I want is X saber flying off my belt either while running or while riding my bike. I searched through ten pages and could not find a thread that answered my question. Now that is not to say there weren't a ton of threads about covertecs and to me that wasn't a bad thing. While looking through I found out a lot about covertecs that I didn't know. For instance I didn't know that Tim's covertec wheel would fit tightly only to sabers with a certain OD, I wouldn't have even known to ask those questions if they weren't covered in one of the covertec threads. Now is that so bad? that there are a variety of answers? I understand why people would get frustrated to an entitled brat coming on and asking questions, and I have seen that before, but even then I have seen entitled people handled in such a way that wasn't mean, and that showed them how to navigate the site in a manner that would be beneficial to all.

ARKM really hit the nail on the head here, so I don't have anything else to say on the matter. Everyone who has disagreed with my thoughts on the matter has done so in a mostly tactful way, and I do appreciate that.