Favourite Star Wars quotes...

[Sunrider]

"Don't you call me a mindless philosopher, you overweight glob of grease!" "I've just about had enough of you. Go that way! You'll be malfunctioning within a day, you near-sighted scrap pile!"

[Triskale Dagin]

And how could we forget:

"Threepio, you tell that slimy piece of worm-ridden filth he'll get no such pleasure from us! Right?"

[Luke-SkyMarcher]

To argue the meaning of such subjective terms is like trying to fill a basket with water. It will not carry far. Even mathematical calculations can be denied by people who deny science. As history is written by the conquerors and not the conquered a simple majority is needed to turn true to false. Obi wan's statement, from a certain point of view points out the subjective nature of opinion. This is about as true a statement as one can make, as we can see right here.

Of course people's opinions depend on their point of view. That's pretty much true by definition.

It's important to realize, though, that what is actually true does not.

You said, "Even mathematical calculations can be denied by people who deny science." Of course, anyone can deny anything they want to, but that doesn't mean that what they deny is actually false, or even that their denial is based on logical or reasonable thinking. Sometimes people deny things simply because they find them inconvenient and don't want to deal with them, like the alcoholic who refuses to acknowledge that he's addicted.

You say "a simple majority is all that is needed to turn true to false." Suppose we got everyone to vote that we could defy gravity at will, or turn the sky green on a whim, or even that the earth ought to be flat. Even if we got a strong majority, do you really expect that you would be able to levitate, or turn the sky green, or that the earth would conform and become flat? The majority can be wrong.

As to the writing of history, if what is recorded/reported is false, then those who read it will be believing falsehood. Just because they think it is true doesn't make it actually true.


What I'm trying to stress here is that there can be a huge difference between opinion/what people think is true, and that which is actually true.

Opinion naturally varies from person to person. Actual truth is the same, no matter what we think of it. And not only is it impossible to prove otherwise, it is impossible to even say otherwise without contradicting yourself.


Sorry for the thread hijack.

[Sunrider]

Darth Vader: "So, you have accepted the truth?"
Luke: "I've accepted the truth you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father."
Darth Vader: "That name no longer has any meaning for me."
Luke: "It is the name of your true self. You've only forgotten. I know there is good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. That is why you couldn't destroy me. That's why you won't bring me to your Emperor now."

True or false; Anakin, evil is he?

Black & white question this is. Yet black and white answer there is not. With most things true this is, or all, on ones point of view it depends. Hmmm

[Eco]

I'll save the thread!

Vader's quotes
"Impressive... Most impressive..."

"Your skills are now complete."

"It is too late, for me, son."

That last one was done so well! Even now it still sounds incredibly sad.

AOTC quotes:

[Jango to Boba in Mando'a] "Yue, Boba, uuh det sohie."
(I spelled that phonetically, I'm sure it doesn't match the script or Mando'a spelling.)

ESB
Chewbacca laughs
"Laugh it up Fuzzball!"
I just love Chewie's laugh! XD

"What about Luke?"
"shyyriiwook"
"What!? A Jedi!? I'm out of it for a little while and suddenly everybody has delusions of grandeur!"


I forgot my favorite line of Vaders!
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!"

[Luke-SkyMarcher]

True or false; Anakin, evil is he?

Let us examine this question. Why is it hard to give a straight answer? Because of the ambiguity of what, exactly, you are referring to by the word "Anakin."

First, consider the person in question. When he was born, his mother named him "Anakin." He was a slave. He was "rescued" by Qui-gon's bet. He became a jedi. He later turned to the dark side, and in doing so had his name changed to "Darth Vader."

Now despite these changes in "occupation" if you will, or even in name, the same person exists. He has the same body, the same memories, a continuous uninterrupted experience of life, etc.

The actual truth is, in turning to the dark side, this person has become evil.

Now consider the question, "Is Anakin evil."
If "Anakin" is defined as "This person before his name was changed to 'Darth Vader,'" the answer is, of course not.
If "Anakin" is defined as "This person's real name, no matter what he's called now," then yes, once he turned to the dark side, he is evil.

Notice that the actual truth is the same regardless: This person has turned to the dark side, and is evil.
The truth is solid.

What differs is what, exactly, one refers to as "Anakin." It is still opinion/personal preference that varies, not the actual fact. Expressing the same facts in different words does not change those facts. No matter how you say it, the fact remains that this person was good before he joined the dark side, and evil after.


It is crucial to be able to distinguish between fact and opinion.
For example, suppose a friend repaints their house a new color. The neighbor on one side thinks it's an improvement. The neighbor on the other side thinks it looks worse. But no matter what they think of it, the fact is still absolutely the same, for all people in all circumstances, that our friend's house is a different color now than it was before. (Yes, it is even true for the blind/colorblind: just because they don't know it or can't recognize it doesn't change the fact.)

And it is still absolutely true, for all people in all circumstances, that one of our friend's neighbors thinks the house looks better with the new color, and the other neighbor thinks it looks worse.

No matter how you express it, or even if you deny it, the truth remains the same, if you agree with it or not, if you like it or not, even if you know it or not. It is still impossible to have it otherwise.

[Novastar]

@ Luke Sky-Marcher:

http://www.philosophyforum.com/philo...html#post42097

I believe most everyone should "re-think" the definitions (and their interpretations) of what is "fact", what is "truth"... and the differences (if any) between the two.

Further... even though this thread was/is about SW quotes and things about fact/truth are coming up...

...AND the fact (????, heheh) that Star Wars is just a bunch of films...

...it seems pretty clear that the entire POINT of the "Anakin/Vader/whatever" character is to show that:

Yes--redemption can be found by anyone...
At the most oddest of moments...
In one's darkest hours...
And even when it seems that there is nothing left but badness & evil...
Like a star to the unlit midnight sky...
It can light a soul's brazier aflame.

The fact that Vader/Anakin "removes his mask of evil" before he dies a mortal death... would verify that--yes--there still IS/WAS a sense of good/righteousness left in him...

However small...
However untimely--as in "too little, too late, bub!"

SO... in summation, Skymarcher:

I fully disagree with you. Your "facts" and "truths" (even in this fantasy-based SW world)... are inaccurate.

I also believe that a human is defined by their ACTIONS (whether as a "character in a story"... or a true, living man like you or me or your neighbor with the painted house).

And a human can't be summed up in a black & white box stamped "evil" or "good". The world is not so black & white, I'm afraid.

In terms of SW "facts":

* Anakin turned to the dark-side at one point = FACT
* Anakin was once part of the light-side = FACT
* I was once 25 years old = FACT
* Anakin watched his mother die = FACT
* Anakin is evil, was evil, or is good, was good = BELIEVE

When you attach emotional qualities to facts... they tend to get distorted... as you have a MIXTURE of fact + fiction/believe. For example:

* Anakin became forever evil by turning to the dark-side at one point = MIXTURE
* Anakin's life was in turmoil when he discovered his mother and had to watch her die = MIXTURE
* When I was 25 years old, I was in better physical shape than I am now = MIXTURE
* I painted my house green and it uplifted me, giving me a fresh outlook on the entire house = MIXTURE

Hmm.

Anyhow.

[Luke-SkyMarcher]

On rethinking definitions/interpretations of truth/fact, the "fact" still stands: Truth, in the traditional sense, must exist.

If you say "Truth does not exist," you are saying that it is true that truth does not exist, defeating your own argument.

If you say, "The only things which are true are mathematics and self-evident statements," you are again defeating your own argument because that statement is neither self-evident nor mathematical.

If you say "Reality exists outside of us, but it is impossible for us to know anything about it for sure," you are still defeating your own argument because you are claiming to know for sure that you cannot know for sure...

Is the skeptic skeptical about his skepticism?

No matter how you disguise it, disbelief in the truth always becomes self-refuting. Unless perhaps you come down to it and say, "I don't want to believe truth exists because that would be inconvenient for me." But then it's based on emotion, not fact/logic.

Now as far as I can tell from your post, Novastar, you "fully disagree" with my analysis of Anakin because Anakin turned back to the light side.
Now, of course, if you consider him at the end of his life, rather than, say, in the middle of ESB, then you could say that he was not evil, but had done/experienced great evil in his life. That is, of course, the other factor which would have to be considered in asking such a question: at what time in his life are you referring to? Yes, redemption definitely occurs.

Also, you mentioned that people can't be categorized as "good" or "evil," though you don't seem to give any reason, except that people should be judged by their actions, and presumably no person has "entirely" evil actions or "entirely" good actions (Even Hitler did not do evil with every action, and even Mother Theresa did not do good with every action - right?). And yet we still recognize Hitler as evil and Mother Theresa as good. Perhaps it depends not on their actions, per se, but on the way they were most inclined to act, and therefore the way they acted more often.
For example. A starship captain makes an error, endangering the crew and the mission. Anakin the Jedi Knight would be most inclined to do what was necessary to save the crew and the mission. Darth Vader the Sith would be most inclined to strangle the one who made the error. Hence why we would be most inclined to call "Anakin" good and "Darth Vader" evil. The fact that they are, indeed, the same person at different times of life does not change that.

Now on another point you brought up. Putting emotion in the mix does not make a statement somewhere between true and false.
"* I painted my house green and it uplifted me, giving me a fresh outlook on the entire house = MIXTURE"
If someone went around telling people that painting your house green made you depressed, you would think "that's not true, it uplifted me, not depressed me." Of course, not everyone will feel the same emotion upon viewing your newly painted house, but the fact that you feel uplifted does not change. It would still be absolutely true.

If, on the other hand, you said, "The paint on my house is uplifting to people," Then it would be a mixture; some people may find it uplifting, others may not. But it is still true that those who do, do, and those who don't, don't. Those who are in between, are in between. But there's nothing ambiguous about it to the individual.

[Sunrider]

Control control you must learn control.

Use the force Luke, let go Luke.






Life is as delicate as a drop of dew balancing on a blade of grass, yet it exists.

[Tenric Starkindler]

............................Sorry for the thread hijack.

SOOoooo very late to say that.
Though I do find the argument interesting. The difference between subjective and objective truth has fueled not only many an discussion, but many a battle (or war) as well.