Mastery

[TuxedoCartman]

I think this poor horse has been beaten to death for the second time in three years... LOL. I am in agreement with Lucien on one thing at least: everybody here... despite a very, VERY touchy topic... has remained remarkably civil throughout the whole argument. And that is part of why I love this community so much. It wasn't rhetoric earlier, when I said this was perhaps the most civil and well-behaved forum I've ever visited.

I have just one thing I'd like to address before signing off on this topic for good...

I don't look at this site as often as I used to but I can tell you this, it seems that new threads are started more often which cover old ground. That bores me to death so I stop looking.

THIS is my biggest fear for this site, and probably why I was arguing as heatedly as I was in this discussion. I'm new to this hobby (very new) and don't want to miss out on learning from and sharing with some truly great craftsmen, who no longer come around because they are either bored, or annoyed, or unappreciated, or just frustrated with the overall atmosphere anymore. I've not been on this board long, but just reading back through threads, it does seem like there are fewer useful posts, and more and more... well, clutter, for lack of a better word... these days. I've seen it happen on other forums, and it would kill me to see it here.

With that said, may the force be with us all.

[psab keel]

Well, I am so happy to see that everyone has really kept their cool given the sensitive nature of the topic at hand.

Lucien, if more newcomers show the kind of patience that you have to listen to us old timers we'll all do just fine. And if I didn't say so before, I'm glad you could join us here! : )

As for not posting as much lately (at least in my case) it has more to do with a busy schedule and the fact that given my finances I haven't been able to build sabers in a long time. I finally also have space now to build so hopefully that will be changing soon!

I think I've said just about all I can without repeating myself. Get building! : )

[FenderBender]

I will say, that a LOT of the "Old Guarde" doesn't come around very much for that exact reason. Most of us get tired of seeing the same old "what's a blade holder for" or "I have a new idea for the black blade, someone try it and let me know" threads. We've all devoted lots of time in creating threads that are 'stickyed' for beginners to read through and get the basic info and sometimes advanced info they need. I don't know where the "heat" is coming from as most of us just don't reply anymore. That's kinda sad, I got my feet wet here and always thought of this place as "home". Now, I log on, read a bit and sign off. If I see someone who truly shows that they've done their homework, and they need help or advice or heck just encouragement, I stop and give it. It's not about protection of my business or secrets or whatever, honestly, I have more business than I can handle and that's the case for most of us. I have been trying to give business away for the last 6 months. I can't even get to all my emails as we get 30-50 a day. Why would I try and keep people out of the saber market at that point? We need more, quality smiths, doing this for people, not the other way around. What I find, is that most of the people who complain about how they're treated, spend most of their time in the chatbox, haven't built a single thing, and most haven't even ordered anything yet. But....they waste tons of time playing grabass in the chatbox, starting the useless threads listed above, and generally don't contribute to the site, community, or the progression of the hobby. I have only ever "had it out" with one member, and when I think back on it I ask myself if I would do it again and my answer is "twice as hard", the little bastard deserved it. I know it's pretty much the same for my compatriots, there isn't a campaign out there to harass noobs.

[TuxedoCartman]

Well, FenderBender, I can't speak for anyone else here, but personally I've greatly appreciated your contributions and help on this forum, especially the spoon-feeding you provided on the LED Engin thread.

Thank you!

[Invisas1979]

Believe it or not I do understand why people who have been doing this would get irritated with the same old questions over and over again. Once again, I was a Marine, so I went through the same cycle of getting new guys and having to teach them the same thing over and over again. I did it though, and no the questions don't pile up as they do on a forum, but even so. I wanted to know how well a covertec clip stays on your belt through rigorous activity, because I carry my saber on a daily basis, and I ride a motorcycle and I work with Jr. High kids, so the last thing I want is X saber flying off my belt either while running or while riding my bike. I searched through ten pages and could not find a thread that answered my question. Now that is not to say there weren't a ton of threads about covertecs and to me that wasn't a bad thing. While looking through I found out a lot about covertecs that I didn't know. For instance I didn't know that Tim's covertec wheel would fit tightly only to sabers with a certain OD, I wouldn't have even known to ask those questions if they weren't covered in one of the covertec threads. Now is that so bad? that there are a variety of answers? I understand why people would get frustrated to an entitled brat coming on and asking questions, and I have seen that before, but even then I have seen entitled people handled in such a way that wasn't mean, and that showed them how to navigate the site in a manner that would be beneficial to all.

ARKM really hit the nail on the head here, so I don't have anything else to say on the matter. Everyone who has disagreed with my thoughts on the matter has done so in a mostly tactful way, and I do appreciate that.

Yeah you tought them the same thing over and over again because they could not just read and learn what they needed to know and because what they might learn could mean a big difference when in a combat situation.

A cover tec clip is more a costuming query, in the chat box you could have asked Jo-Lo and she'd have been happy to advise, contrary to popular belief she doesn't bite ;-0. They stay on very well providing the belt is decent. Ideally the belt needs to be thin enough that the clip sits over it completely. Jedi belts have a thin strip in the middle which is perfect for the clip.

That said the rigors of riding a bike and having the saber sway may cause the clip to slip, but having never rode a bike with my saber on I can't say for sure.

ARKM is right in that a negative reply is not the way to go and I would not personally do that and I'm sorry if he feels annoyed by it. Can't say more than that really.

I will say, that a LOT of the "Old Guarde" doesn't come around very much for that exact reason. Most of us get tired of seeing the same old "what's a blade holder for" or "I have a new idea for the black blade, someone try it and let me know" threads. We've all devoted lots of time in creating threads that are 'stickyed' for beginners to read through and get the basic info and sometimes advanced info they need. I don't know where the "heat" is coming from as most of us just don't reply anymore. That's kinda sad, I got my feet wet here and always thought of this place as "home". Now, I log on, read a bit and sign off. If I see someone who truly shows that they've done their homework, and they need help or advice or heck just encouragement, I stop and give it. It's not about protection of my business or secrets or whatever, honestly, I have more business than I can handle and that's the case for most of us. I have been trying to give business away for the last 6 months. I can't even get to all my emails as we get 30-50 a day. Why would I try and keep people out of the saber market at that point? We need more, quality smiths, doing this for people, not the other way around. What I find, is that most of the people who complain about how they're treated, spend most of their time in the chatbox, haven't built a single thing, and most haven't even ordered anything yet. But....they waste tons of time playing grabass in the chatbox, starting the useless threads listed above, and generally don't contribute to the site, community, or the progression of the hobby. I have only ever "had it out" with one member, and when I think back on it I ask myself if I would do it again and my answer is "twice as hard", the little bastard deserved it. I know it's pretty much the same for my compatriots, there isn't a campaign out there to harass noobs.

Now now Fender, we all get that argument, we'll leave that in the past.

As for not coming here so much, that's a shame for sure. And I hope this makes the point of the reason people like me dislike the unnecessary threads.

As an edit, this is a fairly negative thread, maybe it should be locked???

[beggarsoutpost]

I think some of you are missing a couple of points.

I have seen rude, insulting, polite and contructive replies to questions here and on other forums. Being rude or insulting is not helpful, it's "bashing" and is basically a way for the person who is doing said bashing, to vent his/her frustration on the "noob" in question. If you are that frustrated with the question being asked that the only reply you can give is rude or insulting, how about not replying at all? It doesn't matter if I know the answer and am not a participant in the thread, when people are rude and insulting to people just asking questions, it upsets me. There's really no call for it and it will get you nowhere even though you may think otherwise. If one is compelled to reply, all one has to do, in a polite/constructive way, is explain to the person who asked the question that they need to read the stickies and use the Search function. That's it. You don't even have to spoon feed them any links. Just be nice about how you go about replying to the question. It's really not that hard. If you are upset at the noobness or lazyness of the question, cuss them out, out loud or in your head and then reply nicely, lol.

Yep... That's pretty much why I don't post here much... To many long winded non-responses from members who could just direct to a link or not say anything... If your really bugged by a noobish question maybe you need to take a look at yourself before you don't answer the question with a 6 paragraph post...

I'd really have to ask why as I've been here longer then most of you and it never bothers me... never... my first question when I found this place... What's inside a lightsaber?... what are the guts that I need to build one?... I had no idea what was in them and I did not know to look or even how to look... and I was not responded to or held out as an example of what not to do when you have a question... which is probably why I'm still around...

Through out my whole life I've been told by more then one teacher or mentor that no question is a bad question... except I guess if your signed on to the TCSS forum in that case you need to learn what your doing before you ask a question.... it's not very nice and it does not help the confidence you need in yourself for learning something new... I'm here everyday and I'm never bogged down by reading all the useless threads started by all the new members who don't know anything... I either don't read them or I don't respond to them... Actually being annoyed by them never happens and if it does for you maybe you need to step away....................

[TuxedoCartman]

Yes, BOP, but when you joined the forum it was, what... 2 years old? I imagine there weren't a lot of readily available answers at that time.

But let me thank you for taking the time to illustrate that there is not much correlation between how long someone's been on the boards, and noob behavior. Truly remarkable the way you managed to kick the hornet's nest after all the bickering had died down, by complaining about people's complaints(without, it seems, actually addressing the complaints in question). An impressive bit of argumentative yoga if I ever saw one.

Bravo, good sir; you are a shining example to us all.

I keep hearing the same advice that if a noob question bothers us, we should ignore it. So let me ask you, why then shouldn't that same advice apply to those complaining about being told to go read more? If someone offers you constructive advice that involves some effort on your part, and this offends you... then perhaps you should be the one to step away, no?

Yeah, I second Invisas's suggestion. Shut this down. (Five paragraphs, including this one. New personal best).

[psab keel]

Yeah I agree it's time to lock this thread up. It's starting to get redundant.

[Lucien Kane]

Yeah I agree it's time to lock this thread up. It's starting to get redundant.

lol at least we all agree on at least one thing!

[beggarsoutpost]

Yes, BOP, but when you joined the forum it was, what... 2 years old? I imagine there weren't a lot of readily available answers at that time.

But let me thank you for taking the time to illustrate that there is not much correlation between how long someone's been on the boards, and noob behavior. Truly remarkable the way you managed to kick the hornet's nest after all the bickering had died down, by complaining about people's complaints(without, it seems, actually addressing the complaints in question). An impressive bit of argumentative yoga if I ever saw one.

Bravo, good sir; you are a shining example to us all.

I keep hearing the same advice that if a noob question bothers us, we should ignore it. So let me ask you, why then shouldn't that same advice apply to those complaining about being told to go read more? If someone offers you constructive advice that involves some effort on your part, and this offends you... then perhaps you should be the one to step away, no?

Yeah, I second Invisas's suggestion. Shut this down. (Five paragraphs, including this one. New personal best).

Funny another couple paragraphs of exactly what I was talking about... ARKM's right you guys totally miss the point but that's probably on purpose...