Saber Tip experiments for poly-tubes...

[Novastar]

Does anyone have any thinking, resources, or experiments regarding saber tips?

After using all kinds of tips over the last few years, I have found that *ALL* current tips WILL come off your saber blade, given the right amount of force and the right amount of hits. Only a matter of time.

So far, there are polycarbonate tips (Ultra) and acrylic ones (TCSS) EDIT: WRONG! I SHOULD SAY TIM SELLS POLY-CARB ONES! SORRY!, and some have been flat half-domes, while others have gravitated toward "shouldered".

Ultimately, I think there are two main reasons why these things fly off:

1. They are HARD, solid materials and do not flex, while the poly tube is hollow, and actually flexible (despite its toughness).
2. Not many glue types are flexible enough to handle the stress the tips will go through.

I have suggested silicone, vinyl or rubber-based tips, but I haven't been able to find any kind of solution that is already pre-made. I have even tried cannibalizing "super balls", sort of already knowing it wouldn't work... but wanted to see. Well, it did not. At least I confirmed it!

Also, I've bought some products that might be possibilities, but they really aren't ideal. However, given the materials I've seen--it is entirely possible to do what I'm thinking.

The final idea I've hoped to get thinking on is some kind of SCREW-ON tip... but I do not know how practical/possible that would be with polycarbonate. But... it certainly wouldn't fly off, now would it? However... I've no idea if that would cause more cracking up near the tip. I believe we would actually NOT want to do this (surprising as it may seem), since it would allow no flexibility to the poly-c up near the tip. Anyhow.

SO... I open it up to the folks on TCSS. What say you? Any tangible ideas, fairly scientific thoughts, or experiments?

Again, the idea behind this thread is to start producing some RESULTS for saber tips that just don't fly off.

[Strydur]

So far, there are polycarbonate tips (Ultra) and acrylic ones (TCSS), and some have been flat half-domes, while others have gravitated toward "shouldered".

Erm..we sell PolyC tips and have as long as Ultra has. We did have a injected 2 piece design until recently when we switched to the machined tips but they have been PolyC.

[Novastar]

Oops, sorry for the mix up Tim! But yeah... I suppose you understand my thinking here... just trying to see if maybe a "rubbery" tip invention or something could go somewhere.

I realize that it may be far more cost to create one (when all the dust has cleared) vs. how much one could sell it for... but I guess for some reason, I'm becoming an advocate for them!!

Only other thing I can think of is... Tim, have you ever tried glueing the tip DIRECTLY to the diffuser film, and THEN sliding into the blade? I believe that's how MR did it, and I believe it sort of helped so that one does not lose the tip if the glue DOES loosen.

[Strydur]

I think the problem with a rubbery tip is that you need to figure out a way to hold it in place. I would imagine something that could be attached to a polyc disc that is then glued into the tube would work best. What are you looking for as far as feel goes? Do you want it like a bouncy ball? Or just something that is not as hard as PolyC? What type of hits usually make your tips come off? Does the blade break at the same time or does the tip just fly off at the glue point?

[Jonitus]

What about those clear "feet" Erv sells or used to sell? They're like the feet used on crutches and such, but a clear material. Maybe I am imagining this stuff?

[xwingband]

I'm thinking something slightly less than a rubber hockey puck.

The ones we currently use are great though. Only for weird temperature changes and long term daily abuse have I heard of it being an issue. When I glue and let it set just brute force will break the tube also.

Really the problem is glue. Even if we found a good semi-hard material and use the same design the glue would still fail at some point. I think any future design needs to be pressure fit like the MR tips. A slight outward flair to hold itself in the tube, like a cone.

I think it would require more of a shoulder, but it would pay off if it works.

OR like Jonitus mentions a cap might do well. That way the tip warps with the tube... it disturbs the look with it's mushroom shape, but perhaps in conjuction with a shoulder a outer cap portion would work too.

[Novastar]

Jonitus said: "What about those clear "feet" Erv sells or used to sell? They're like the feet used on crutches and such, but a clear material."

Absolutely! I was actually looking into those, but they are naturally very thick, so it's not totally ideal. I have actually found a thin sort of... well silcone "sleeve" (don't make any jokes!!!! ) That could be used, but it still makes it look silly. I forgot to show Corbin at C4. Dang.

Strydur/Tim said: "What are you looking for as far as feel goes? Do you want it like a bouncy ball? Or just something that is not as hard as PolyC?"

I think a "bouncy" ball WOULD actually be good, for three reasons, one, thrusting actions that actually hit someone might not hurt as much... two, a dropped saber might absorb more shock rather than crack if dropped on a hard surface... three, rubber will alter shape as the poly-tube significantly changes shape during a strike.

"What type of hits usually make your tips come off? Does the blade break at the same time or does the tip just fly off at the glue point?"

I really don't know how often you guys must use your sabers, I guess that would be a gauge? As for me, they are used at least twice a week, so about 5 hours each week. Here's the skivvy:

The tips come off no matter what I do:

* no matter the tip "style" (Corbin, TCSS, Ultra, self-constructed)
* no matter the glue style (oh bloody 'ell too many to mention!)
* no matter the hit style (they fly off randomly, although my guess is sometimes it is the 'straw that broke the camel's back')
* no matter on the kind of.... "special way" I glue and do things. Sometimes I try different "techniques" of gluing... granted, you can't do all THAT much differently

I've tried sanding & cleaning the materials... putting on ALOT of glue... putting on "just enough"... trying to give it more room at the mushroom plug area (more room for flexion).

Ultimately I am pretty resolved in that the problem is that the tips are SOLID and do not flex. I think mushroom heads are great, but if they do not flex, they will eventually come off.

It makes sense if you think about it. Since the poly-tube changes shape (evil doppelganger!!! ), then the tips need to follow suit in order to have the so-called harmony we'd be looking for.

I believe the problem is NOT the glue... in fact, if anything--all the glue does is help to "rip" off some of the blade when the tip DOES fly off!

I've experimented with just "taping tips on"... after the glued ones fly off, sometimes I simply tape them back in place. I've noticed less cracking of the blade this way, and the tips stay on almost as long. Go figure.

Ultimately--it is the LACK of flexion in the tips that is causing tip woes. If I'm wrong--correct me. But now that I've experienced it for almost 2 years... it makes perfect sense to me.

[neophyl]

Nova instead of tape you could use clear heatshrink. Easy to replace and alot neater than tape and still has that flexibility you mention.

In fact I like the idea so much Im going to do mine with it

[Novastar]

Wow... great idea neophyl... (as usual).

You would know about that material much better than I... could you tell me the actual name of it? Would I look up "clear heatshrink" and simply use a hairdryer or whatever?

Hmm... that's a pretty darn stellar idea. I'll do it too if it doesn't cost $50 or whatever, hehhe (which I doubt).

We should both post photos--if there will even be anything to "see"!!

[xwingband]

I believe the problem is NOT the glue... in fact, if anything--all the glue does is help to "rip" off some of the blade when the tip DOES fly off!

Well, I didn't mean it like that. I mean that the tips shouldn't rely on the glue and that's the issue. I think the design should do the majority of the holding. I think friction should hold in the tips. As is glue is doing 95% of the holding job.

Take the blades... a simple screw does quite well by friction alone. That is why I think a harder yet soft material with an upside down stopper shape for the shoulder would do well. There would be some air above it to add even more to the ability to flex and the bottom would hold it in.

Basically I want it to be an utter pain to pull off regardless of glue. Then the glue would go on as the extra to stop it from coming of on hits that go close to out.