Black Blade development...

[TimeRender]

I don't understand what you mean.

[Tyhm]

I want to try and get the lensatic or zoetrope or even the bent-polarized or finned solid-core sabers tested, so when dudeguy of FX (I can't be bothered to figure out his name or go there myself) releases his "Yeah, it's just electrical tape on the inside, only works from this side" video, we can rebutt with "Huh, more's the pity; we got one that works." I'd laugh, anyway.
But I don't have access to a saber, much less any of the nifty films that would be necessary...I'm wondering vaguely though if the car-window tinting film is polarized though, if applying it to the inside and outside of a thick-wall tube would cause the slits to line up in interesting ways (like a much higher resolution version of the zoetrope)...we'd probably have to go full-custom to get that to work though, to make it match up all the way around...I doubt we could get polarized film in the exact dispersals we need so that the inside and outside filters line up...

Still, it'd be amusing to follow up an expected disappointment with an unexpected reveal.

[Tyhm]

(Point taken on the stinger from my prior post; I couldn't think of quite how I wanted to end it, and was rushing off to work. Shame on me, I should know better.)

I don't think I'm explaining it too well, and I'm not allowed by the forum software to repost a visual explanation I've already posted, but:
Polarized film (like the hypothetical window tinting) can be viewed as a sort of pattern of horizontal lines, alternating clear and dark.
Two planes of polarized film aligned with parallel "lines" are just Rather Dark, as the light gets filtered twice; two planes aligned with perpendicular "lines" make an opaque, as the only light that can get through is going both horizontally and vertically at the same time...all this is explained on the previously linked Wiki.
I wonder if 1) the Zoetrope theory (posted previously, and I can't repost the image anymore because the forum won't let me) worked, 2) polarized film would be a particularly fine-grained version of the same thing. Of course, I probably ought to get a saber and prove 1 before we start dreaming of 2, and prove 2 before we start trying to minimize costs via the automotive section at WalMart...
Y'know what? I'll animate the previous illustration and post that, one sec...there. The overlapping areas of light were driving me batty, trying to get them all in one static image; the point is (and no, I'm not suggesting the light rotate or anything silly like that), that light coming from the edges will hit the eye directly, while light from the middle can't. It's a crude illustration, but have I communicated the theory? Like if the only way out from a round room is to go out a doorway, take a step to the side, and go out another doorway; the light can't just run straight out.

Aaand of course it's a thumbnail. >_<

[TimeRender]

That's not how polarizing film works. What you're describing is like venetian blinds. Polarized film doesn't create striations despite the common illustrations that attempt to explain it. An individual light wave vibrates in a single plane. Light emitted from a source is composed of light waves that vibrate in many many planes. Furthermore, these planes can be described across multiple axis so that every wave regardless of angle can be said to have an x and y component ranging from 0 to 90 degrees. Polarized film restricts all light waves from one axis. Optical grade film therefore always blocks exactly 50% of the light that attempts to pass through it, and when two films are crossed at 90 degree angles it will block out 100% of the light. The stuff used in automotive films is no where near that effective and would likely be unable to produce the desired effect. I'm probably not doing a very good job of explaining it, so just take my word for it or ask an optical mineralogist.

Edit: I just read that wiki link you posted and they do explain it correctly, but it could be tricky to try to understand it that way if you don't already have some experience with it.

[Tyhm]

Nah, I get it. I had hoped it'd be a cheap and easy readily-available source of (pseudo-)microscopic-grade "venetian blinds" film, but I suppose I'll just have to make it myself...
It occurs to me that it Would be quite possible to print a pattern of black lines with acceptable accuracy on transparent film using one of those industrial printers, or even the kind they have at Kinkos; not cheap, but perfectly fine-tuned so that one sheet is, let's say, 3' x (1"*π) and has exactly 360 black stripes and 360 clear stripes, and the next sheet is 3' x (0.98"*π) yet also has exactly 360 black stripes and 360 clear stripes...

But I should probably focus on cobbling together a working model first. Which will be problematic, my girlfriend's got about $2000 worth of dental work coming up that her insurance won't pay for. >_<

[Matt Thorn]

I see what you're getting at, Tyhm. A Zoetrope approach might possibly work to some extant, in that the blank bands directly facing the viewer would certainly overlap, and those to the sides would most likely allow some light to escape. But as a practical matter, I can't imagine how you would get it to work. You would need an inner and outer layer, and the spacing of the black bands on each would would have to be matched up perfectly, and would be determined by the exact circumference of each layer. Then there's also the probably that, even if you could somehow create these two perfectly matched layers, the PolyC would catch, reflect, and refract a certain amount of light, so even the middle of the blade would not be completely dark.

And the problem with polarization is clear from TimeRender's very nice explanation: darkening and lightening with polarization depends on two striated planes, one on top of the other, being at varying angles relative to each other. Grandpa John provides an explanation even a third grader could understand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgA6L2n476Y

Now, there are polaroid filters that block light in only one direction, but I can't see how the polaroid effect can help us at all here.

The Lumisty film I introduced is, if I understand it correctly, basically a kind of Zoetrope effect--or Venetian blinds--on a molecular level. Which brings us back to the problem of the lone, impoverished hobbyist creating a black version of this film that was created by one of the largest chemical corporations on the planet.

In other words, we're back to looking at gimmicky "X-Ray Glasses" kind of solutions, e.g., some variation on black electrical tape.

[Tyhm]

You would need an inner and outer layer, and the spacing of the black bands on each would would have to be matched up perfectly, and would be determined by the exact circumference of each layer.

If I had a 3/4" blade that fit in a 1" blade, a bit of electrical tape, a really good way of cutting the entire roll of tape at once, and a lot of time...or perhaps just a very clever dispersal mechanism...I could do it. Mark the inside and outside of the 3/4" tube , outside first with slightly lesser measures of clear than opaque, then the inside to cover the clear parts of the outside and accept that the inside will have much narrower clear sections. Probably only bother doing 90 degrees of the tube at first for a proof of concept, that's just a question of stretching 2 or 3 strips of electrical tape Straight Enough; then you bung the zebra-striped monstrosity inside a proper blade and see how it looks.

After that, the problem is elementary - just as you said, Circumference. We'll know the exact ID and OD of the tube, c=2πr, divide the c by however many stripes you want and there's your spacing. Give me the r's, I'll make the image to print in any size and resolution you like. Just a question of taking a 1x2 image (white on one pixel, black on the other) and resizing and tiling until you're happy with it.

Then there's also the probably that, even if you could somehow create these two perfectly matched layers, the PolyC would catch, reflect, and refract a certain amount of light, so even the middle of the blade would not be completely dark.

Which is what I was trying to get at with my rather clumsy and inflammatory post a few hours back: if our colleague on FX really is just sticking electrical tape on a saber "for the lulz", a working black saber with a bit of glare detracting from the total darkness at the core would still be perfectly viable. Then it's just a matter of reducing the ambient side-glow of the PC, and someone will start playing with different cleansing solutions or sandblasting or whatever, same as every other problem We The Community has overcome.


And because I'm a horrible capitalist swine, I've also got a mind to how this could end up in the shop; thick enough diffusion film printed with the narrow design on one side and the thick design on the other, rolled up and stuffed inside the saber, in a couple years every n00b starkiller cosplayer would have a black lightsaber. *shrugs* I want Tim to do well, he's always done right by us. Or you, I'm still new.

[Onli-Won Kanomi]

I imagine everyone in this hobby wants Strydur to do well...who has done better by this hobby than TCSS? Besides Tim is just a heck of a good guy. That doesnt mean that we can't be supportive of someone else when they find something new, whether it might eventually end up in the shop here or not...and speaking of which here's the thing about things people think impossible; once one person finds one way to do something [even something thought impossible] pretty soon more people find more ways to do it...so if Senti has found a way to do it and people buy his solution whatever it may be then who knows maybe Strydur will find a way and put it in the shop if he feels there is enough market to justify that.

I had some doubts at first but I'm willing to admit when I've been wrong and think he may have something now and can wait to see what it is and how its done [he has said he will reveal his method]...there's no need to 'rush to judgment' or make assumptions that tape is involved when we can just wait and see what this is in due course.

Also iirc he said that it was flat from some angle...how does that translate into it being "2D" from every angle BUT one which it seems some of you think? If there are 360 degrees around the blade and it looks good from 340 of them and flat from 20 that would be a lot different than if its flat for 340 degrees and only looks good from 20 eh? What would be be 'good enough' for you? Video will show which it is closer to THEN you can decide for yourself if its good enough for your own use [even a mostly-flat effect might still be ok for a display piece] eh? No one is going to make anyone who doesnt like whatever effect he has achieved buy one eh? He hasn't taken deposits of anyone's money afaik. So
there is no reason for anyone to 'worry' they will be 'disappointed'. Lets be FAIR eh?

We NEED to see video which will answer a lot of questions...he will have to produce it soon and he must know that. Meanwhile why be negative? *in Anakin voice* I say PATIENCE.

[Count Malik]

here is the link (http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index...opic=24111.150) of the pictures of the "black blade" (Edit: He's calling them shadow blades now) posted in fx-saber forums.... Senti took the pics and created the blades... so all credit goes to him! with that being said its pretty cool and im not gunna lie about it. hehe

[Tyhm]

PS - the zoetrope kinda works. Proof Of Concept was hindered by my utter inability to get anything straight, but...

...from this first experiment it seems the width of the lines need to be narrower than the thickness of the tube dividing outer and inner zoetrope...otherwise you wind up with a really chunky movement at the edges. When I have more time and energy I'll try again...can't get the pictures off my phone, it's not much to look at anyway.

PPS - for the lensatic theory, I'll have to keep my eyes open but occasionally the dollar store will have something like an animated Shrek poster; a bit of careful peeling and scrubbing down with Goo Gone, that'd work for a proof of concept, no?

[edit again] Then you could probably buy a Lenticular Poster and soak off the backing if the Proof of Concept works.