21369 lumens.... not a new tech.

[Sunrider]

Try the SSR-90. Not super easy but doable.

[acerocket]

I agree with TroyO on this. You need to factor in the difference between a full sphere and a 10 degree (5 degree half angle) cone of same sphere. I bet the manufacturer is playing with numbers to make their light seem brighter. I have never seen a Halogen lamp rated that high. I have a 20W M16 bulb in my closet and the box says 230 lumens. I googled Halogen bulb lumen ratings and found some 50W lamps listed at 600-800 lumens. I find it hard to believe that little 20W halogen could be 25 times brighter than a 50W halogen house lamp.

I am not going to get into the math, but measuring lumens is a tricky business. If you have the time, read this pdf: http://files.intl-lighttech.com/handbook.pdf particulary the part about luminuos intensity on page 37. If you don't want to read, let me post a section of that page:

Suppose that two LED’s each emit 0.1 lm total in a narrow beam: One
has a 10

° solid angle and the other a 5° angle. The 10° LED has an intensity
of 4.2 cd, and the 5° LED an intensity of 16.7 cd. They both output the same
total amount of light, however - 0.1 lm.
A flashlight with a million candela beam sounds very bright, but if its
beam is only as wide as a laser beam, then it won’t be of much use. Be wary
of specifications given in beam candela, because they often misrepresent the

total output power of a lamp.

I learned long ago to take all the lumen ratings of LEDs and lamps with a (very big) grain of salt. The manufacturers are always looking to outdo the competition even if that means fudging the results.

I am not suggesting you not undertake this experiment. I would love to see you try it and post your results. My experiment with halogens was a disaster - the aluminum test setup got so hot I couldn't touch it after 5 minutes. Not very handy if you want to hold the saber at a con. Just be careful throwing out numbers like you have because lumens and thier calculation is a little bit of black magic in my opinion. Ask 10 people to calculate lumens from a lamp datasheet and I bet you get 20 different answers.

[Lord Dottore Matto]

We have all been trumped by Acerocket. He is an actual Astrophysicist so I'm betting he knows better than me...Oh well, I am off to install a vita-grow lamp top try and regrow my hair...

[TroyO]

LOL, well like I said earlier... for $2, I'd try it!

I've seen folks that made flashlights that could catch things on fire.... if it wasn't a hoaxed vid that's gotta be one poopload of lumens.

(A whole new measure for lumens? How many pooploads have ya got there?)

[acerocket]

Hey now!!! Don't be telling lies. I am not an astrophysist. I am an aerospace engineer. Besides, who has more letters after their name? I only have B.S. and we all know what that stands for (and I don't mean Bachelor of Science).

I am a strong advocate of experimenting. I would never tell anyone to not try something (unless it was dangerous or something). But I have noticed a lot of times people will post their ideas and then get angry when someone points out flaws in their plan/idea. I think it boils down to a loss of common sense in the face of a new discovery. Sometimes we see something that looks real promising and run to post about it and how we are going to do it. But when someone with a little more common sense looks the idea over, can find flaws. I am just as guilty of this as anyone. Does anyone remember the Tri-Lux idea? Oh it sounded great but ended up being kind of impractical after I prototyped it. It worked OK, but not as I thought it should have given the base numbers. It's great to see people experimenting, but pause a minute to think before you jump head first into your plan. If it sounds to good to be true, then it probably is. In KuroChou's case, he thought he found a great Halogen bulb. But I find it hard to believe that a little 1" diameter 12 watt halogen bulb could pump out 25-30 times the light a large 50 watt house lamp could. I have learned long ago to never trust manufacturer specs. They are always fudging the number to make themselves look better than their competitiors. In the case of LEDs (and lamps in general), unless you know the exact spefic conditions the 'published' values were taken at, it is hard to quantify the results and compare to other products.

KuroChou - if you feel passionate enough about your idea, then please try it out. You may just prove us all wrong.

[KuroChou]

Ace: it still all comes down to the angle. Maybe they did fudge the numbers because of the angle, but that doesn't matter as thats the angle we're using for the saber anyway.
It may be the exact same amount of actual "light" as you're getting in your closet, but it will still appear much brighter to the eye, because I'll be using it in a smaller space, with a shorter distance.
That, and near as I can tell, this isn't your ordinary track-lighting flood halogen.
It's specifically intended for industrial spotlight instruments, and if it turns out it's not, it doesn't change my intention of using an industrial, or at the very least better focused one.
Either way, the perceived "brightness" of the blade will likely still surpass the P7; and regardless, I'm not trying to argue it. If I'm wrong I'm wrong.
I'm just trying to make sure we're all on the same page as far as terminology and mathematics.
When I actually get one wired up, I'll be using light meters and ir laser thermometers to find the maximum usable lux/temp ratio, and what electrical power that falls at.

Moving on to the real issue (because that doesn't really matter until I find the physical limits of my thermal management)....

Wikipedia rates PolyC as gradually softening above 150°C (302°F), and flowing above 300°C (572°F).
Halogen lamps typically run at or below 250°C (500°F), because this is the temperature required to initiate the tungsten-halogen cycle (the chemical reaction that preserves the fillament).
That means that I effectively only have to insulate or dissipate a little over 100°C (212°F).
Granted that means that I'm reducing it by the entire boiling point of water. Running at that temperature it's still enough to cause really nasty burns, so hilt insulation or dissipation is totally different can of worms.
Good thing I don't mind gloves.
The interesting part of using an incandescent instead of an LED, is that the heat dynamic completely reverses.
The lamp will never get hot enough to damage itself, but certainly hot enough to damage everything around it.
The issue then, is figuring out to do with all the heat it conducts in such small spaces.

Wikipedia still has excellent information for this, in the form of exact conductivity ratings for a broad spectrum of materials, from the very insulating silica gel, to the very conductive graphite.
I'm getting the impression I'll need both in order to make this thing effective.

The issue, is that all the formulae I've scrounged up from there are very precise and impractical for such a small scale.... that and I don't completely understand them.
I'd love it if someone could help me convert the information there, into something relatively useful i.e. how many degrees of heat from the lamp I can move away from the blade using 1-3cuin of circulated replenished air.
From there I can scale it down with filter Gels, and finally operating current, until it's within a usable range for the PolyC.
I realized in the very beginning that when all was said and done it would be a very careful balance of heat, current, and lumens.

Thank you to everyone willing to help with the math and research, or at the very least to lend a word of encouragement.
I think in the coming days, the most important thing to remember about this is that in no way is it intended to be practical.
I just want to prove it's possible.
It's silly to think that I'll cause a revolution in the community using deprecated technology;
but it'll be hoot if it works.

[TroyO]

Aero-Gel! Love that stuff... or at least the idea of it. LOL... one of these days I will order a chunk off ebay. Anyway... it's an amazing insulator... there's common pics of a thin sheet of it with a blowtorch on the botton and an undamaged rose on top. It looks almost like smoke and is the lowest massed solid or some such.

http://cgi.ebay.com/AEROGEL-NANOGEL-...item3efcb2e30a

Here ya go... this has a pic, but with crayons instead.

Also, remember that most things have a max possible temp, and if that is within the operating range of the device then you don't need to dissipate anything... just insulate it away from whatever it can melt. Ohh, and make sure not to touch anyone with the bulb end, LOL.

[KuroChou]

I think you got my point exactly. the only reason I'd want to conduct, instead of insulate, is to pull the heat to an area of the saber with more space to deal with it.
for the most part, the next step is figuring out exactly how much heat (in degrees rather than watts) I can effectively shield and/or dissipate. From there I can just scale back the lamp itself until it's within a usable operating temperature.

[TroyO]

Well, 20 watts is 20 watts.... the "conversion rate" of watts to heat is pretty consistant no matter the technology as a remarkably small percentage of the energy involved is actually converted to photons. So, see if you can find a generic electrical watts to heat conversion.

Next thought.... don't discount thermal mass, either, You don't have a ton of room but but you might be surprised at the amount of heat that a solid 1.5" diameter by 3 or 4 inch chunk of copper can "suck up" and hold. If you are going to run out of battery before you fill up your "heat storage tank" anyway, it will have time to naturally dissapate in the meantime.

[Sunrider]

I think you got my point exactly. the only reason I'd want to conduct, instead of insulate, is to pull the heat to an area of the saber with more space to deal with it.
for the most part, the next step is figuring out exactly how much heat (in degrees rather than watts) I can effectively shield and/or dissipate. From there I can just scale back the lamp itself until it's within a usable operating temperature.

You could totally use air cooling. I am doing that very thing now. There are plenty of fans in this size.