Black blades?

[vorian89]

Has anyone ever thought of making a black blade like the unlockable one from the force unleashed. I was thinking about trying to put a black object of some kind into the blade to get the out white glow around the blade using a white LED. I know it wont look good in the light but i hope it will look good in the dark. It will be just for show. Ideas? Thoughts?

[FenderBender]

It has been discussed ad nauseam before. Not possible, not practical, and would be a waste of time.

[Jedi-Loreen]

Dude, that was a game, not real life. :rolleyes:

Black is the absence of light.

Get one of the Transparent Smoke polyc tubes and make a blade with it, use a white LED in your hilt and pretend you have a black blade.

http://www.thecustomsabershop.com/Colored-polyc-tube-P430.aspx

[grayven]

Just don't cut your arm off with that thing. You won't beable to see it in a drak place. :razz:

[psab keel]

I honestly don't understand people's fascination with Black Bladed Lightsabers. As Loreen and many others have pointed out as well, black is the absence of light. It's simply not doable and frankly is a really lame concept. In all reality it's counter productive to building lightsabers.

[$tarkiller]

I honestly don't understand people's fascination with Black Bladed Lightsabers. As Loreen and many others have pointed out as well, black is the absence of light. It's simply not doable and frankly is a really lame concept. In all reality it's counter productive to building lightsabers.

Obviously some people dont think itslame, because they asked about it.

[Jedi-Loreen]

Maybe they just don't understand the physics of lightwaves.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b8/JediLoreen/Miscellaneous/Smileys/smiley.jpg

[Scum_and_Villainy]

Eh. It's usually based on the odd concept that black is a "bad***" color. In my opinion, it's one of the dumbest concepts next to a "Grey" Jedi.

[Paar Ad]

Black blades are really not that appealing. The word that I would use to describe them is appalling! (that's "appealing" without the "e" get it ;-) )
The best part about the lightsaber is that it is a LIGHTsaber not a darksaber.

[ARKM]

Black blades only work in the movies using CGI or in video games. Sure it can be done that way but why? I suppose it could be a CGI black tendril-like miasma or something but again, why?

[duncan29793]

why not... it is funny reading the posts. Sure it may be technically impossible, but a lot of the comments appear to focus more on the "it's stupid" so you can't do it. remember everyone, different stokes for different folks. me personally, I think it looks kinda weird yet interesting. wouldn't make one myself (going on the idea that it could be possible), but hey why go green over blue? Personal preference. Not one is better than the other.

[vorian89]

I agree that it would be practically impossbile, but like i said in the first place it's only for show. It wont be used for fighting or for anyother reason than just to oogle at it. I view it as one of those things that "to my knowledge" hasn't been done successfully (BUT I CAN BE WRONG). I know that it was just a game, Loreen, but in the first place this whole site wouldn't even be here without a little movie in the late seventies called Star Wars. And i understand the physics of light and what the word BLACK means so you can rule that out. :mad: Can you tell me what light is?

[TimeRender]

No Vor, it isn't practically impossible, it is absolutely impossible. What you would need is a black core that emits no light surrounded by a luminous outer blade. However, if you surround a black object with 360 degrees of something that glows, all you are going to see is the outer blade. If you take a few moments to consider your own idea before posting it, it should be obvious that it can only be done in video games.

[ARKM]

Vorian89, just wrap your saber blade in black electrical tape. Done.




:D

[sithlordfaust]

id go with the smoke blade and white led idea.

I get a crack out of the replies saying how its impracticle or whatnot because its the absence of light, not understanding lightwaves babble.

HELLO lightsabers are fake people, not real, pretend, fantasy.
so the idea of how its technically not feasible beacause of how lightwaves work is a load of BS.

the whole idea of a lighsaber is not feasible because of how physics work, so we should all quit making them.

having said that.. to the OP, this topic has been posted about a few times, its not a new Idea by any means.
so , the next time you think youve come up with an original idea, and want to ask about it, use the search function to find where someone else got bashed for asking it so you dont have to endure it.

[Lord Dottore Matto]

Hey SLF, I have a black blade.:mrgreen:

[sithlordfaust]

Hey SLF, I have a black blade.:mrgreen:

well post a pic of it.
Itll show how well the idea works for those who have thought of doing one..(me included)

[Lord Dottore Matto]

well post a pic of it.
Itll show how well the idea works for those who have thought of doing one..(me included)


Dude, you know what one I am talking about...the Black poly-C one.:rolleyes::D

[Scum_and_Villainy]

id go with the smoke blade and white led idea.

I get a crack out of the replies saying how its impracticle or whatnot because its the absence of light, not understanding lightwaves babble.

HELLO lightsabers are fake people, not real, pretend, fantasy.
so the idea of how its technically not feasible beacause of how lightwaves work is a load of BS.

the whole idea of a lighsaber is not feasible because of how physics work, so we should all quit making them.

In the real world, it's an impossible idea simply because LEDs cannot produce a "black light" (for lack of a better term). Hence, the replies.

In the Star Wars universe, there is a certain realm of believability that cannot be broken. Sure, some laws of physics are kicked in the stones and tossed aside, but others are strictly adhered to. The light spectrum is in the latter category. Considering the way a lightsaber has been established to work, black blades simply cannot be produced. Even the Star Wars universe has laws. "Hur dee dur, it's fiction!" is not a valid argument.

[cardcollector]

I tink the point is people are trying to make is this:
"Darkness is the absence of light." so, If you wanted a black blade you would have to (as previoulsy mentioned) buy the smoky poly-c tube, use a white-or red:cool: luxIII and deal with the results.

What you can't do is by a black LED...:D

[Onli-Won Kanomi]

*cross-franchise*

Ye canna change the laws of physics Capn!

As everyone has pointed out a black lightsaber is categorically impossible.

But then so is extension and retraction effects with a single in-hilt LED - ye canna change the speed of light eh?

Yet we can get a kind of PSEUDO extend/retract effect through PWM drivers and 'Corbin-type' striated diffuser film so maybe we should ask if the ILLUSION of a black blade is possible?

Not through our normal blade-lighting methods I'm certain...but maybe if one used multiple [probably moving] tubes with slits [M-M experiment eh?] to create reinforcing interference patterns in just the 'right' way one might, REMOTELY possibly, be able to create a 'dark' interference pattern in what would APPEAR to be the 'core' of the 'blade' tube???

...I suspect even IF its possible [and i'm not sure it even is] it would be a ridiculously tricky and time consuming to R&D and possibly expensive, certainly not duelable [any shock whatsoever would ruin the absurdly precise alignments] and just not worth the bother for an optical illusion in a 'toy' imo...but kudos to anyone who can do it...I wouldnt try.

Just do yourself a favour and get a 'black' smoked poly blade and white LED...yeah its technically the opposite of TFU but similarly distinctively different from normal lightsaber blades so close enough for me anyway...or if you are really just into looking Sithy get a smoked poly blade and put a red LED for a 'Death blade' which looks even cooler imo.

[chase]

In the real world, it's an impossible idea simply because LEDs cannot produce a "black light" (for lack of a better term). Hence, the replies.

In the Star Wars universe, there is a certain realm of believability that cannot be broken. Sure, some laws of physics are kicked in the stones and tossed aside, but others are strictly adhered to. The light spectrum is in the latter category. Considering the way a lightsaber has been established to work, black blades simply cannot be produced. Even the Star Wars universe has laws. "Hur dee dur, it's fiction!" is not a valid argument.

Lightsabers in the Star Wars universe are not focused light, but more of a contained energy blade. If it was just light, someone would swing the saber at someone, and it would harmlessly pass over them, kind of like a flashlight. That being said, the color of the blade comes from a crystal, and in Star Wars, if there was a type of crystal that created a black blade, its entirely possible.

Btw people... Is it really necessary to bash someone for bringing up the idea? A simple, "it wouldn't work with LEDs because of blah blah blah" instead of nicely insulting the guy. Jeez.

Oh, and god forbid I'm wrong about what I said with the crystals and whatnot. :D

[mihunai]

Im no physicist, but is it plausible to say that it produces light that interferes with existing light?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference

Seeing how precise lightsaber are supposed to be, perhaps they could be callibrated to produce such an effect.

mTm

[Scum_and_Villainy]

Lightsabers in the Star Wars universe are not focused light, but more of a contained energy blade. If it was just light, someone would swing the saber at someone, and it would harmlessly pass over them, kind of like a flashlight. That being said, the color of the blade comes from a crystal, and in Star Wars, if there was a type of crystal that created a black blade, its entirely possible.

Btw people... Is it really necessary to bash someone for bringing up the idea? A simple, "it wouldn't work with LEDs because of blah blah blah" instead of nicely insulting the guy. Jeez.

Oh, and god forbid I'm wrong about what I said with the crystals and whatnot. :D


The lightsaber blade itself is indeed contained energy, but the color of the blade is a light effect. Simply put, black light does not exist.

And before anyone brings it up, the black crystal shown in the Force Unleashed is to be taken with a grain of salt; sure, it's a skin that you can use, but that was thrown in as a non-canon element much like the Luke Skywalker, Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, etc. skins that you can use in place of the Starkiller skin.

[vorian89]

You guys are taking this way to far. Give me a simple yes it can be done or no it cant (WITHOUT A DOUBT) be done. Im not asking for black light or anything like that. Im not looking for a completely black blade im really looking for the white glow around it. TimeRender was the closest to my idea but i know it can be done and im going to try it because you guys are completely ridiculous. Why was anything else even a question? If you look at what the blade looks like in the force unleashed you'll notice that the white glow is only what you see. I KNOW ITS A GAME AND IT IS IN A COMPLETELY FICTIONAL PART OF THE STAR WARS UNIVERSE. All im trying to do is imitate it NOT MAKE A "BLACK" BLADE. I did search for what IM looking for and all the posts that i found was for a BLACK light as in purple like color.

[TimeRender]

I have to agree with Vor. Too many threads lately have gotten completely derailed. His question has nothing to do with what is considered canon or what fictional science might make it possible in the Star Wars universe. This is about prop building. If you find it necessary to keep posting in this thread, keep it on topic.

Vor, I have imagined a simple exercise to demonstrate why this WON'T work. Find a flat sheet of colorless semi-clear plastic or glass, a flashlight, and something black. Shine the light on the plastic from behind and then set up the black object behind that so that the light does not cause the object to cast a shadow. Then look at the plastic from the other side. If done correctly, you will barely be able to see the black object at all because it will be completely obscured by the light.

The point is this. A lightsaber blade is a cylinder, not flat. You should be able to look at a lightsaber blade from any angle. If you have an illuminated edge around the black core from one viewing angle, it must be illuminated at ALL viewing angles, and doing this will completely obscure the black core. The only way to create the illusion of a black blade would be to allow the black core to cast a shadow on ONE side of the outer blade, but then you would not be able to view it from any angle but one. This would be fine for a prop that is only going to hang on your wall, although there are simpler ways then to achieve the effect, but it will not work for a prop that you are actually going to swing around to impress your friends with.

Also, our blade require that the inside of the tube be completely transparant to allow light from the emitter to reach the tip of the blade. If you put an opaque object in there, the only light you will see will be a tiny halo right at the emitter.

I understand that you think this is a cool idea, and also whenever a young builder comes on here and is told they can't do something they tend to get that attitude of "well I'll show you guys, I'll prove you all wrong" but honestly they never do prove anything. Listen to the more experienced builders. Loreen and LDM have both chimed in here. This cannot be done. Now, if you just want it to hang on your wall and look cool, PM me and I can give you some ideas on how to create the effect. Otherwise let it go. Trust me.

[vorian89]

Thank you. I understand the "i'll make it and show you" thing very much and sometimes I do the same thing with other projects and sometimes they do and don't work. Thank you also for the test i'll have to try it. I still wish to research this project. I am currently going to school to be a material engineer and machinist so this type of thing is the right type of thing to bring up to my teacher. Maybe he can explain it more in depth for me. BUT in all thanks you.

[DarthFender]

I agree that it would be practically impossbile, but like i said in the first place it's only for show. It wont be used for fighting or for anyother reason than just to oogle at it. I view it as one of those things that "to my knowledge" hasn't been done successfully (BUT I CAN BE WRONG). I know that it was just a game, Loreen, but in the first place this whole site wouldn't even be here without a little movie in the late seventies called Star Wars. And i understand the physics of light and what the word BLACK means so you can rule that out. :mad: Can you tell me what light is?


Light is electromagnetic radiation. It ranges from invisible Microwaves and Radio, all the way up to Gamma Rays. The light's color is determined by its energy (wavelength.) Mre energetic radiation moves away from the Red portion of the spectrum to the blue.

Black on the other hand is a total absense of light. Hense, you cannot have a black lightsber. But you could have a black-light saber. But it would not have that really cool blueish glow you get in the game.

Sorry, can't be done. Will never be done. Unless you film yourself and rotoscope the footage.

[Firedrops]

well i was reading this and i *might* have found a solution, although this might've been thought up or posted already but i missed it.
its the "black polycarb with white led" thing, but it goes like this
......____
___/ __________
..... /BBBBBBBBBBB
+ <BBBBBBBBBBBB
___ \___________
.....\____

with the + being the white LED, and the B arts representing the black blade
the white led will be reflected and will come out, surrounding the black blade, or maybe even at an angle(85?) so that it will be obviously shining ONTO the blade itself, and providing a base flair
this only works at night though. in the day you won't see the white part glowing around the black part
and probably a dimmer LED should be used so that the white aura around it will only be seen at the sides and not completely make the blade look white even from the front
(note: just think of the full stops as spaces since if i use spaces the forum will automatically move the lines to the front)

[Eco]

You guys are taking this way to far. Give me a simple yes it can be done or no it cant (WITHOUT A DOUBT) be done. Im not asking for black light or anything like that. Im not looking for a completely black blade im really looking for the white glow around it. TimeRender was the closest to my idea but i know it can be done and im going to try it because you guys are completely ridiculous. Why was anything else even a question? If you look at what the blade looks like in the force unleashed you'll notice that the white glow is only what you see. I KNOW ITS A GAME AND IT IS IN A COMPLETELY FICTIONAL PART OF THE STAR WARS UNIVERSE. All im trying to do is imitate it NOT MAKE A "BLACK" BLADE.
Sorry this has gotten so out of hand.
One thing I've learned in High School is that the best way to tick off a geek is to get their obsessions wrong.
(Nerdfight lol.)


I did search for what IM looking for and all the posts that i found was for a BLACK light as in purple like color.

Well, if that's what you were looking for, Do-Clo has done a few UV sabers, which in their florescent light bulb form are commonly called blacklights.
Here's one of them, I think.
http://forums.thecustomsabershop.com/showpost.php?p=33526&postcount=40

My black blade is just to turn the LED off. :D

[TimeRender]

I think some of you are having a hard time understanding what Vor is asking for here. He doesn't want a blade that emits darkness. He wants a black blade with a WHITE aura. Everyone stop telling him that black is the absence of light. It's been said here several times already and everyone gets it. Let's keep this on topic guys.

[Jonitus]

I think some of you are having a hard time understanding what Vor is asking for here. He doesn't want a blade that emits darkness. He wants a black blade with a WHITE aura. Everyone stop telling him that black is the absence of light. It's been said here several times already and everyone gets it. Let's keep this on topic guys.

I'm not sure how it would look, but what could be a possible solution is to get hold of some black poly-c or acrylic in 3/4" size and put that inside a 1" regular blade. "maybe" the LED (if you used the right one) could light up the outermost tube enough to give a white aura, but the center would still be dark. Part of me thinks it "could" work, and a big part says it would not look good at all and would be too dim.

[Whitetiger]

OK people play nice if you want to stop the exchange of ideas from others just keep telling others they have a bad idea. BUT if you get a out there idea expect the same treatment of your idea.
So There are black blades leon paul had a black bell guard and black blade at the us nat champion ships I saw it. I wanted it and tryed to buy it. ( this is a real us fencing saber -steel) its was very cool but they were not selling it it was a proto type.
So i was thinking a black blade would show up better in daylight but it would not glow it could be a demo blade in a show and switch to a purple blade when the lights go out so it glows. or in my fight club if you wanted a black ploycarbon blade and fight us with that ok with me. I look at want people want
why not a black blade why not pink or red striped guys do not make people unhappy if we can think about we can do it.
By god if our young men are fighting overseas and one of them wants a three color blade that plays ring around the rosey I will try to get it done.
So a black blade ok can a black blade glow I don't know but I am willing to try it out. if you don't try you don't win.
so i will paint a blade black and give it a shot.
and if i fail ok what more can i try. we are unstopable as long as we work together. And I will always try to keep a open mind.
cause a lot of people will call us geeks because we like to dream.
We went to the moon and made starwars, so let us not call others
to task for BAD IDEAS maybe we can do it and some day maybe a real lightsaber will be made and it could be black ( If you don't think the color black is real then for give me oh king and the sigh said long hair frekie people need not apply.
make friends not war.
I will always try to give a open reply to any person. we fight so others can talk
about us that makes us great.

WT

[ARKM]

Whitetiger... and everyone else that thinks a black blade with a glow around the edges is possible, it's not about uninformed people thinking this is impossible and shooting down those that do. It's about uniformed people thinking that it is possible and about informed people trying to explain why it is not. The informed people are not trying to shoot down an idea that some think is cool and others don't. Some of the informed people are trying to explain why it is scientifically impossible. All one has to do is research "light", "light waves" and "sight" and you will know right away why this is impossible. It's not "Well just because you think it is impossible doesn't make it so.", it's "We have done our research and know for a scientific fact that it is impossible.".

Take something rod/tube like and wrap it in the non-glossiest, blackest tape you can find or paint it ultra flat black. Then take that tube and mount it on top of a light (larger in diameter than the tube) so that the like is shining down the length of the tube but is also emanating form the entire circumference of the tube (in other words, all 360 degrees). This means that the light is all around the tube. Now take a 1/2" solid black rod and center it in a 1" OD polycarbonate tube normally used for a saber blade (some sort of clear material can be used to center the rod in place). Then light that blade up in your saber using a Luxeon LED. In this situation, just like in the above instance, you still have light emanating completely around the circumference of the solid black rod. This will not produce the effect of of a black core with a glow around the edges (unless you are looking at the tip of the blade as it is pointed towards you). Why? Because there is light emanating from all around the blade and light is what enables sight.

The ability to see with our eyes is based off of light. Lightwaves emanate from a lightsource like a Luxeon LED or a 75 watt lightbulb. Those lightwaves bounce/reflect off of objects. When lightwaves hit our eyes, we interpret that as sight. That means that without light, there is no sight. Something that is black is absorbing most of the lightwaves instead of reflecting them back. Since there is light emanating from the entire circumference of the black rod inside the clear tube, there is absolutely no way for the core to appear as solid black. It. Just. Can't. Happen.

The only way to achieve this effect in the real world has already been stated. you have to have the lightsource behind the black object, not completely surrounding it. This means that you can only view this effect from pretty much one angle. That said, sure you can produce this effect... if you only want to hold the saber at one angle. Might be cool for conventions or picture shoots but that's about it... because that will be one weird looking/shaped lightsaber blade. The downside to this is that if the light in the room, shining on that the black blade from the angle people will be seeing it from is brighter than the light you are using behind the blade, well, the effect will not be present or at least not as noticable.

Now in a 2D world, this is completely possible. The laser blasts in the movie "Ice Pirates" are a perfect example of that... or of course, the black blade in the TFU game.

[Firedrops]

seems like noone saw my suggestion/idea at all?
just reflect the light to the sides, you'll get a much bigger blade holder but the white aura will be easily visible at night.

[Jedi-Loreen]

Jonitus had a similar idea to yours that would still fit into current blade holders.

I'd kind of like to see someone try the idea they have. Prove it doesn't work, or prove it can. to some degree.

Put up, or shut up.

[TimeRender]

Firedrops, I saw your idea, but I already explained a few posts prior why it won't work. You have to ask yourself this; if the light is shining up all 360 degrees of the blade, why can I only see the light at the edges? The answer is that you can't. If the outer blade is illuminated, you won't see the black core, you will only see the light. Before you go accusing people of not reading your post, you might want to be sure you have read and understand everyone else's.

But perhaps I was unclear, so I will explain it again. Go get your nearest lightsaber and hold your hand up behind it with the blade turned off. You will be able to see a blurry hand because the blade is translucent. Now turn on the lightsaber. Can you still see your blurry hand? No, because even though the blade is still translucent, it appears to be opaque. If you could successfully illuminate the outer blade with a black opaque blade in the center, what you would see would be no different. The black blade would be completely obscured by the light. You will only see the black core when the light is dim or completely off, and this is not the effect that anyone is looking for. If you need more proof, go find the nearest lightbulb and tell me what color the filament is when it's turned on. (Please don't actually do that anyone. I will not be held responsible for your blindness.)

And all of that is supposing you find a way to brightly and evenly light the outer tube when the center is completely obstructed by the black core, which is impossible. The light from the LED doesn't travel up the sides of the PC blade. It travels through the CENTER of the blade across an angle of either 5 or 10 degrees, depending on the optics used, until the light hits the outer tube and is diffused.

Now I want to make it clear that the reason this will not work actually has nothing to do with the fact that black is the absence of light, or with the behavior of photons, or the wavelengths of different colors of light. All the people who said those things are making this much more complicated than it needs to be and are missing the far more fundamental flaws in this plan. I think anyone here on the forums ought to be able to understand the very SIMPLE reasons I mentioned above as to why this won't work, but I swear to the Flying Spaghetti Monster that if this conversation goes on much longer I will come back with diagrams! DIAGRAMS! You have been warned.

[FenderBender]

Firedrops, I saw your idea, but I already explained a few posts prior why it won't work. You have to ask yourself this; if the light is shining up all 360 degrees of the blade, why can I only see the light at the edges? The answer is that you can't. If the outer blade is illuminated, you won't see the black core, you will only see the light. Before you go accusing people of not reading your post, you might want to be sure you have read and understand everyone else's.

But perhaps I was unclear, so I will explain it again. Go get your nearest lightsaber and hold your hand up behind it with the blade turned off. You will be able to see a blurry hand because the blade is translucent. Now turn on the lightsaber. Can you still see your blurry hand? No, because even though the blade is still translucent, it appears to be opaque. If you could successfully illuminate the outer blade with a black opaque blade in the center, what you would see would be no different. The black blade would be completely obscured by the light. You will only see the black core when the light is dim or completely off, and this is not the effect that anyone is looking for. If you need more proof, go find the nearest lightbulb and tell me what color the filament is when it's turned on. (Please don't actually do that anyone. I will not be held responsible for your blindness.)

And all of that is supposing you find a way to brightly and evenly light the outer tube when the center is completely obstructed by the black core, which is impossible. The light from the LED doesn't travel up the sides of the PC blade. It travels through the CENTER of the blade across an angle of either 5 or 10 degrees, depending on the optics used, until the light hits the outer tube and is diffused.

Now I want to make it clear that the reason this will not work actually has nothing to do with the fact that black is the absence of light, or with the behavior of photons, or the wavelengths of different colors of light. All the people who said those things are making this much more complicated than it needs to be and are missing the far more fundamental flaws in this plan. I think anyone here on the forums ought to be able to understand the very SIMPLE reasons I mentioned above as to why this won't work, but I swear to the Flying Spaghetti Monster that if this conversation goes on much longer I will come back with diagrams! DIAGRAMS! You have been warned.

LOL!!!!

Priceless, and THANKYOU!:D

I think that we should beat the next person to bring up black blades with Gravy's lightwhip. All in favor?

It's always amazing when people argue with simple fact. When others have tried nearly everything already they STILL get doubted by the "new" blood that think their fresh point of view will "enlighten" those of us who have already had our share of dissapointment from failed ideas.

Its just like the "white core with colored corona" thing. IT CANT BE DONE, not with anything that you could look at without a welding mask. But still I get emails DAILY with people pointing me to Youtube videos of Hyperblades and sometimes even my own sabers, as well as photos and they say "hey look at this, I thought it wasn't possible? maybe you're just not doing 'X'):rolleyes:

[Jedi-Loreen]

Firedrops doesn't even have any luxeon lightsabers yet. :rolleyes:

A lot of the people who are arguing in this thread that is "should" be possible are kids who probably haven't had any physics classes yet. ;)

[psab keel]

This whole thread is pointless. I think the idea is ridiculous. Just my opinion. I know there are those who disagree, but I've been in this hobby for ten years and I've done enough experimenting to know what works and what doesn't.

[Danz409]

Dude, that was a game, not real life. :rolleyes:

Black is the absence of light.

Get one of the Transparent Smoke polyc tubes and make a blade with it, use a white LED in your hilt and pretend you have a black blade.

http://www.thecustomsabershop.com/Colored-polyc-tube-P430.aspx

isn't the whole reason we make our light sabers is so we wont have to get a broom stick and wave it around and make light sabers with our mouth and pretend its a light saber?

[Novastar]

Although I have zero interest in this kind of thing... and also although many people are skeptical about this sort of thing... I suppose there ARE some things you could do:

* Some kind 3/4" OD spongey, black-colored inner core that slides into the blade. It'd have to be secured in some way that doesn't interrupt light flow on the sides, leading up the 1" OD polycarb blade

* It'd be helpful if the 3/4" black inner core was not really "solid", but... sort of--like I said--spongey, and full of enough holes to allow SOME light to pass through and around it

* Definitely sand the outside of the 1" blade a bit--to help the blade material's thickness pick up the light

* White main LED... preferably a VERY bright one (P7???)

* Don't bother with a mirrored tip, lol!!!!

* I wouldn't use any diffusion film initially... and if at all.

* Good luck at the franken-saber thing being evenly lit along the edges from the white light

* If you were LUCKY, you'd try to obtain SOME material for the inner core that at least reacted to light in SOME way... but I don't know... since the goal is to have it black... ugh... it would be killin' the light, lol.

This whole thing would probably be a fairly miserable result... but... it would certainly reveal SOME kind of "black blade" style that would be different than the norm.

Still... it'd be a "whole lotta nothin'" as a result... in trade for a whole lotta WORK. ;)

[vorian89]

If i had been given a simple test instead of being told flat out that it wasn't possible than this whole topic would have been solved a really long time ago. TimeRenders test was exactly what i needed and it answered all of questions for me. I have had some time to do his test and I understand now why you guys are saying it is not possible and i FULLY agree.

[TimeRender]

A grateful newb!? Santa Claus got my letter!!!

[Lord Dottore Matto]

If i had been given a simple test instead of being told flat out that it wasn't possible than this whole topic would have been solved a really long time ago. TimeRenders test was exactly what i needed and it answered all of questions for me. I have had some time to do his test and I understand now why you guys are saying it is not possible and i FULLY agree.

Wheeew! This thread was a hoot. A whole lotta' good readin' this thread...:rolleyes:

LOL, this is why we told you it won't work. My question is why not simply listen when advice is given by numerous people? It is okay to listen to those with more experience ya know.;) They aren't always trying to squelch another's creativity. Sometimes, in fact, they are even really trying to save some time and heartache..and expense for you.

Don't take the ribbing too hard man, it is just how we have a little fun.;)

BTW, glad you now understand. :mrgreen:

BTWW, if someone ever does intentionally give you bad advice, the Council will make sure to treat that kind of activity with extreme prejudice...this I promise.

[Whitetiger]

Ok a black blade.
take a polycarbon blade and paint a black stripe down the blade on two sides leave a white outline on both sides the outline should be small. the black cutout
will look like a dark blade and the outline will look like the edge.
the effect will be a black blade. I used black electric tape to test what it would look like its ok in the dark moving but not so hot still.
is it a black blade no, yes ???? the paint is a light blocker not a difuser in the blade it is on top of the blade not in side it . so there you have a black blade. the test would be from what are you doing with the blade a show or what. just ask people them what color is that blade they would say black.
you know there is black fire right.
burns very hot
WT

[ErikTheHack]

Personally I love thinking "outside the box" and through doing so have pulled off many things that other "experts" in my field have repeatedly deemed impossible -- of course I work in software so I'm not dealing with the physical world so much but I do love wrestling with the impossible to solve problems. Also, it's distressing to hear the tone of some of these posts -- beyond negative, they're more "attack mode". Yes, it's all fun to stomp all over someone's creativity because you think you know everything and you've been doing this for so long. Also the typical forum-er BS about search before you speak. Yeah, I think everyone gets it but sometimes even through one's best efforts they either can't find anything -OR- simply find too much to consume. And, when one is excited about an idea, or possibly frustrated beyond words, they (god forbid) post a question that other's have answered before. Well hell, if you know where the info is so readily then just fraking POST the damn link rather that spending "print" berating someone for having the audacity to ask a question. If it looks like a problem for an individual, perhaps PM them and give them a nudge toward using the search function before asking an obvious question.

[ErikTheHack]

Now with my soapbox out from under my feet:

I'm in the camp with Novastar and I think he's posted some valid ideas to pursue.

Something novel (or possibly no so novel and possibly proposed before by others with regard to this topic) I would look into is using (something another poster flat out said doesn't exist) is using "black light" to achieve the goal you're looking for. I of course mean using UltraViolet LEDs -- Think of those "black light" posters you can find in any good head shop :mrgreen:

My idea would add to stuffing some kind of black core into the blade and use one of the many transparent UV fluorescent materials around that. This might be some plastic film wrapped around the black core (Corbin style) or maybe a pigment of some sort coating the inside of the blade wall.

You can find materials that UV fluoresce in pretty much any color. Some research would need to be done.

The other obvious issue is the emitter -- I don't know of a Luxeon or similar that works in the UV spectrum but I do know they sell High Output UV LEDs that are used mostly in hydroponic systems.

I would think an array (in a circle) of as many of these as you could fit in a circle around the base of the blade -- probably like 8 -- they would occupy a gap between the black core and the wall of the blade. This would of course require a fair bit of work (and probably some small focussing lenses) to achieve the optimum effect.

Another LED option would be to create strings of HO UV LEDs that would exist in the gap I mentioned above.

Another idea is to search for UV EL wire. I suspect it exists and used it as you would LED strings.

At any rate when turned on I think you'd get more or less the effect you desire.

I for one would like to see a top notch example of this.

Cheers.

[FenderBender]

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q169/AJFenderBender/sigs%20and%20imgs/Thread-Crap-Wont_Die.jpg

[TimeRender]

I can't believe I am actually being goaded into posting on this thread again. I thought this conversation died a week ago.

White Tiger. What you described is a two dimensional solution to a three dimensional problem. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, just so long as you are content to hang your saber on the wall and never actually use it, but there are MUCH better ways to create this effect if that is the case. However, the second you take your saber down from the wall the illusion will be destroyed. That's why no one bothered to post it in the first place, and why in a previous post I told Vor that if he was interested in this sort of thing I could send him a private message. No offense to you White Tiger, but putting black tape on your blade just isn't what people are looking for in this thread.

Also, there is NO such thing as black fire. Sorry.

Erik, I understand your frustration, but if you are going to criticize people for the tone they take with the newbs here, you might want to avoid having a disrespectful tone yourself. Understand that the very people you claim are squelching other's creativity are the innovators who created this hobby in the first place, and if anyone on the forum deserves respect it is them. Saying that you are pissed and then tossing around words like hell damn and frak (and everyone knows what that ACTUALLY means) is pretty much defeating your own supposed position.

Understand that there is a difference between thinking realistically and trying to restrain creativity. Some people on the forum don't seem to understand where that line exists.

Now onto your solution. Putting it plainly, it won't work, and it demonstrates that you have some fundamental misunderstandings about the way these blades are illuminated. First of all, if you placed UV leds in the emitter and then coated the blade in a UV reactive material, all you would see would be the visible light emitted from that material. If all you are going to see in your end result is visible light anyway, why not cut out the middle man and START with visible light too? Secondly, if you are illuminating the outer blade with ANY sort of light, you still have the problem of not being able to see the black core, and that defeats the entire purpose. Nova's idea about a spongey black core will not work either for that same reason. If light is able to pass through the black core, you will not see the black core at all, you will see only the light. And if the outer blade is illuminated, it will appear opaque and the inner tube will not be visible. If you don't believe me, try it. It will fail. Thirdly, you speak of a ring of LEDs that will shine light up the outer blade without needing to pass through the core. This will not work either. Light is not intelligent. It cannot tell itself when to change direction. Light travels forever in the same direction until it hits an object and is reflected. That is what the diffusers in the blade are for. They make the light appear even and they give the light something to bounce off of. If you shine a light perpendicular to the diffuser, it won't go very far. It certainly won't reach the end of your blade.

If you want to try to prove me wrong, be my guest, I don't care if someone wastes their own money on their own bad ideas. But PLEASE don't try to convince someone ELSE that it can be done until you have proven it yourself. Otherwise you will be wasting THEIR time and money, and I am not ok with that.

This thread is dead.

Edit: Also Erik, no one said that "black light" (UV) doesn't exist. Black light is a misnomer. UV light is not black, and the actual "color" black cannot produce light. If you want to call other people out on their mistakes, you had better be sure you know what you are talking about or you might end up looking foolish.

[Onli-Won Kanomi]

Yeah it seems this thread won't die...

so...

YES it IS possible - theoretically - to create 'darkness' from light.

NOT true 'black' which is a whole other discussion since it exists nowhere in this universe other than a singularity; black is the ABSENCE of light therefore a black lightsaber is an oxymoron but on the other hand those who want a 'black lightsaber' DONT NEED an actual black light to get a prop that looks like it does in TFU only the ILLUSION of one so continuing to say it's impossible, while true, misses the point.

HOW it is possible to create darkness from light is through a phenomena familiar to those who've used 'noise cancelling' headphones namely wave cancelling which can apply to light as well as sound because of particle wave duality...opposite waveforms of light can cancel just as opposite waveforms of sound can creating an interference effect of 'darkness' from light.

I pointed out previously the Michaelson Morley interferometer but noise cancelling headphones probably illustrate the point better...two waveforms 180 degrees out of phase cancel entirely - two light wave sources 180 degrees out of phase could create 'darkness'.

[in the real world this 'darkness' would normally simply be 'drowned' out by other ambient light or sources but there may be a way to harness the effect for our use]

I suspect it should be possible - theoretically - to use two opaque tubes inside a saber blade with slits that if correctly spaced would allow light out to create the white glow while also creating a dark interference band running up the length of the blade creating the ILLUSION of a dark core inside the light...now this would normally only be observable fro one direction BUT if one SPUN the two tubes in a coordinated manner then one might be able to get the LOOK of a TFU 'black' saber...no it will NOT be 'black light' in any sense of that term, nor really a black lightsaber...more of a dark lightsaber...but might be 'close enough' in appearance...maybe...

Note I said "theoretically" because to actually make this work in our saber props with multiple tubes with correctly calculated slits and motors spinning them at correctly calculated speed would be a RIDICULOUS amount of R&D bother and a MASSIVE PITA plus completely non duelable since the slightest shock out of alignment would ruin the effect...

...and I'm not absolutely CERTAIN it would PRACTICALLY produce the desired effect anyway...imo it's JUST NOT WORTH IT.

But if anyone wants to try more power to you you're gonna need it!

[Jester]

Has anybody ever tried to do something like use window tint in a blade to get a darker effect? Not really sure how it would come out, but its what popped in my head when reading about a dark blade or black blade.

[FenderBender]

Has anybody ever tried to do something like use window tint in a blade to get a darker effect? Not really sure how it would come out, but its what popped in my head when reading about a dark blade or black blade.

Read the first couple of posts:rolleyes:

You can use Tim's tinted blade if you want that effect.

The rest of the discussion is educating (not successfully) the n00bs on the physics of light.

[Darth_DevilGuy]

Yeah it seems this thread won't die...

so...

YES it IS possible - theoretically - to create 'darkness' from light.

NOT true 'black' which is a whole other discussion since it exists nowhere in this universe other than a singularity; black is the ABSENCE of light therefore a black lightsaber is an oxymoron but on the other hand those who want a 'black lightsaber' DONT NEED an actual black light to get a prop that looks like it does in TFU only the ILLUSION of one so continuing to say it's impossible, while true, misses the point.

HOW it is possible to create darkness from light is through a phenomena familiar to those who've used 'noise cancelling' headphones namely wave cancelling which can apply to light as well as sound because of particle wave duality...opposite waveforms of light can cancel just as opposite waveforms of sound can creating an interference effect of 'darkness' from light.

I pointed out previously the Michaelson Morley interferometer but noise cancelling headphones probably illustrate the point better...two waveforms 180 degrees out of phase cancel entirely - two light wave sources 180 degrees out of phase could create 'darkness'.

[in the real world this 'darkness' would normally simply be 'drowned' out by other ambient light or sources but there may be a way to harness the effect for our use]

I suspect it should be possible - theoretically - to use two opaque tubes inside a saber blade with slits that if correctly spaced would allow light out to create the white glow while also creating a dark interference band running up the length of the blade creating the ILLUSION of a dark core inside the light...now this would normally only be observable fro one direction BUT if one SPUN the two tubes in a coordinated manner then one might be able to get the LOOK of a TFU 'black' saber...no it will NOT be 'black light' in any sense of that term, nor really a black lightsaber...more of a dark lightsaber...but might be 'close enough' in appearance...maybe...

Note I said "theoretically" because to actually make this work in our saber props with multiple tubes with correctly calculated slits and motors spinning them at correctly calculated speed would be a RIDICULOUS amount of R&D bother and a MASSIVE PITA plus completely non duelable since the slightest shock out of alignment would ruin the effect...

...and I'm not absolutely CERTAIN it would PRACTICALLY produce the desired effect anyway...imo it's JUST NOT WORTH IT.

But if anyone wants to try more power to you you're gonna need it!

I should note, that by "tons of R&D" and "PITA" would probably translate to years of work and thousands of dollars at the very minimum.

[ErikTheHack]

Erik, I understand your frustration, but if you are going to criticize people for the tone they take with the newbs here, you might want to avoid having a disrespectful tone yourself.

Yeah you're correct. I am very sorry I lost my temper.


Understand that the very people you claim are squelching other's creativity are the innovators who created this hobby in the first place, and if anyone on the forum deserves respect it is them.

You're absolutely correct again -- I DO understand that and they DO have my upmost respect. However I don't believe that gives them (or anyone) license to show others disrespect because they've had to hear the same question onemillion-and-one times. This has been one of the rare times I've EVER lost my temper and spoke harshly however I read a lot of threads around here and I see certain people ROUTINELY speak to folks in this fashion. Not only in forum threads but on the "shout box" as well. To be honest, I just have a problem with people being attacked and I don't care who is doing the attacking -- it isn't OK, ever. I think you'll notice that I didn't to single out any of these folks in my post. I wasn't trying to attack just strongly asserting my concerns.



Understand that there is a difference between thinking realistically and trying to restrain creativity. Some people on the forum don't seem to understand where that line exists.

This is true but I still see little use in using the sort of tone and mocking that is commonly used around here to answer someone.


Now onto your solution. Putting it plainly, it won't work, and it demonstrates that you have some fundamental misunderstandings about the way these blades are illuminated.

No, actually I understand exactly how they work -- I believe it is you who didn't understand what I was proposing. Perhaps I did a poor job communicating my concept, if so I apologize and will attempt to rectify my deficiency in explaining my idea.


First of all, if you placed UV leds in the emitter and then coated the blade in a UV reactive material, all you would see would be the visible light emitted from that material. If all you are going to see in your end result is visible light anyway, why not cut out the middle man and START with visible light too?

First of all, the idea wan't to simply shine a UV light up the middle of the blade as we basically do in the standard LED configurations.

The "core" of the blade rather than being completely hollow would contain a black core of some sort. Then, there would be a _gap_ -- probably around 5mm then of course the polycarb blade itself, the inside coated with one of the MANY agents that exist that are 100% + or - transparent (to normal visible light) but that fluoresces in UV light. The UV LED array would shine up INSIDE the polycarb blade between the inner blade wall and the black core.

See diagram here (sorry would have inline image but my FTP server appears to be down): http://gallery.me.com/ebalch#100091/UVSaber&bgcolor=black

Now, this is the part where I admit I'm not 100% sure of the results: When "glowing" in the UV light I suspect that it won't be a case where ALL you see is the glowing blade but it will in fact appear to have a black (or blackish if you will) core. YES! Experiments would be required to prove this out and probably a few different UV dopes, dyes, and/or films should be tested for optimum effect.


Secondly, if you are illuminating the outer blade with ANY sort of light, you still have the problem of not being able to see the black core, and that defeats the entire purpose. Nova's idea about a spongey black core will not work either for that same reason. If light is able to pass through the black core, you will not see the black core at all, you will see only the light. And if the outer blade is illuminated, it will appear opaque and the inner tube will not be visible. If you don't believe me, try it. It will fail.

I guess this is where we fundamentally disagree. Respectfully, I believe if what I am proposing is done one will get more or less the effect that is desired. Just because the UV sensitive material is glowing doesn't automatically make it opaque. Also note that light generated in the glow travels in every vector. Light from the opposite side of the blade will NOT be able to travel through the black core where as light near the edge of the blade CAN travel through the unobstructed area, thus adding to the brightness of that area to the observer cumulatively. This WILL create bright areas at the edges of the blade and dark (or darker) areas near the center where the core is blocking light from the opposite side. Also, keep in mind if you go with the natural UV glow color which appears visibly in the violet end of the spectrum the differentiation between the bright and the dark will appear much more significant.


Thirdly, you speak of a ring of LEDs that will shine light up the outer blade without needing to pass through the core. This will not work either. Light is not intelligent. It cannot tell itself when to change direction. Light travels forever in the same direction until it hits an object and is reflected. That is what the diffusers in the blade are for. They make the light appear even and they give the light something to bounce off of. If you shine a light perpendicular to the diffuser, it won't go very far. It certainly won't reach the end of your blade.

I may just be misunderstanding you here (or you me perhaps) but the LEDs go inside of the blade and the UV dope/film/etc. is used instead of the defuser film or blade "frosting". I think I addressed some of your other misconceptions about what I proposed before but please in the future refrain from assuming people are idiots. For all you know (or don't know) about me I could have a PhD in physics. Yes. Light is not intelligent, it does need to be directed. That's why in my original post I proposed that some sort of lensing system might need to be concocted for the LED ring for optimum effect. Again, this ring goes INSIDE the blade but OUTSIDE the black core -- in the _gap_ between.


If you want to try to prove me wrong, be my guest, I don't care if someone wastes their own money on their own bad ideas. But PLEASE don't try to convince someone ELSE that it can be done until you have proven it yourself. Otherwise you will be wasting THEIR time and money, and I am not ok with that.


Yes! Actually I am so intrigued with the idea as a concept as an experiment that I'm already sourcing parts. BTW, I never said that this WOULD ABSOLUTELY work but was merely an IDEA -- unless I'm wrong I think the thread originator was curious if anyone had any ideas about HOW one MIGHT do this.

Sorry, I'm getting acerbic again. I think it just irritates me when someone is so sure that what they are saying is absolute truth without any proof to back it up. Personally, I'm more happy to search for fact right or wrong it's all about the journey.

So success or failure or somewhere in the middle I'll let ya all know of the results when I'm done or ready to throw in the towel.

[Jedi-Loreen]

Another idea is to search for UV EL wire. I suspect it exists and used it as you would LED strings.


Ugh, I promised myself that I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore. :roll:

This statement shows that you have a complete lack of understanding about how EL wire works. It's a completely different technology than LED and UV can't work with it.

We are trying to discourage the misinformation that has being spread by, and to, the new people around here.

As stated, we aren't trying to squelch creativity, but encourage reality.


I for one would like to see a top notch example of this.
Then why don't you try it?

Everyone has these "ideas" but I haven't seen anyone post their attempt at it yet.

[ErikTheHack]

Ugh, I promised myself that I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore. :roll:

This statement shows that you have a complete lack of understanding about how EL wire works. It's a completely different technology than LED and UV can't work with it.

We are trying to discourage the misinformation that has being spread by, and to, the new people around here.

As stated, we aren't trying to squelch creativity, but encourage reality.


Then why don't you try it?

Everyone has these "ideas" but I haven't seen anyone post their attempt at it yet.

Sorry, no disrespect to the experts and YES I am putting my money where my mouth is -- perhaps you didn't read to the end of my looong last post (I don't blame you as I think for most that have been here for a while this is a BEATING-A-DEAD-HORSE issue) :)

Also just an FYI, I get the way EL wire works -- it runs the length of the blade and glows RATHER than shining up the tube as the LUX style setups do. I was proposing that __IF__ UV EL wire was available that _IT_ might be used in a similar but obviously modified arrangement. Perhaps inside the black core and the black core would need to have slits or something -- this was a fringe idea -- maybe ALL my ideas about this are.

I'm not trying to offend or disrespect just was trying to offer a possible solution. Like I said before -- I'm going to do a test build with my black-core-UV-LED-ring idea. I'm sourcing parts at this very moment. You can all point and laugh when I fail :-D

[ErikTheHack]

@TimeRender -- Sorry I think I implied that you hadn't experimented with this concept at all. That's not what I meant. I meant that you hand't tried my idea. And well, if you have let me know so I can cancel some orders ;)

Cheers!

[TimeRender]

Actually Erik, I understand you entirely, but you are wrong.

I understood that you intended to place the UV leds in a ring around the black inner core. That has nothing to do with the reasons this idea won't work. My point about the UV light still stands. When UV light hits a UV reactive surface, the result is visible light. Why then would you start with UV when you could simply start with a regular LED and have a better and brighter end result? That shows me that you don't really understand what you are talking about.

Now, LEDs sandwiched BETWEEN an inner core and outer blade should still be able to illuminate the entire blade since the light will not have to pass directly through the diffuser. On that you were correct. However, it will create a blade that is much brighter at the emitter than at the tip due to the proximity of the LED to the sidewall. It will also create visible streaks of light that will run parallel to the length of the blade. It also still does not solve the problem of being able to view the inner blade.

I posted a simple test earlier to demonstrate how a transparent surface appears opaque when it is illuminated. I suggest you perform that test. Or do this simple thought experiment; Ask yourself why you would see light around the halo of the saber but not at the core, since the halo encompasses the entire core. Remember, just creating a dimmer section at the center of the blade is not the same as having a BLACK core. If you have light at the edges, it is impossible to have black at the center. Period.

I do not make assumptions about a person's intelligence until they have demonstrated it. Having said that, you HAVE demonstrated that you don't understand what you are suggesting. You claim that I suggested that this was impossible without offering any proof. This is false. You just weren't smart enough to understand the proof that I offered, and yes that IS a judgment on your intelligence.

That said, you have entered "Put up or shut up" territory. I suggest that you DO cancel your orders, because although I have not actually tried what you are suggesting, I AM capable of predicting the result.

Edit: To clarify, the diffuser is simply what the light needs to bounce off of in order to be seen. I am not speaking specifically of the diffuser film sold here in the store. In your case the diffuser is the UV reactive material that you coat the blade in. I assumed everyone would understand that without me having to specifically explain.

[ErikTheHack]

That said, you have entered "Put up or shut up" territory. I suggest that you DO cancel your orders, because although I have not actually tried what you are suggesting, I AM capable of predicting the result.

Edit: To clarify, the diffuser is simply what the light needs to bounce off of in order to be seen. I am not speaking specifically of the diffuser film sold here in the store. In your case the diffuser is the UV reactive material that you coat the blade in. I assumed everyone would understand that without me having to specifically explain.

I believe that's what I've embarked on. I may very well (as you've expressed repeatedly) be entirely wrong. I never said that I was right but that as far as what I know specifically what I am proposing hasn't been tried. I'm perfectly happy to end up with egg on my face if you are right.

As far as the defuser film, thanks for schooling me but I was already aware of it's necessity in the standard blade construction -- what I was proposing (again) was using a UV sensitive material (otherwise transparent) in place of and to act as the standard defusing film or the like. There are many possibilities here some with this intended purpose and some that act this way by "luck".

Also, I think I mentioned before that hopefully the end effect would be close to the "black blade" effect. I in no way expect it to come out EXACTLY as it looks in the game or elsewhere but I'm hoping to get something that's close enough for those who have a need to have something like this as part of their dream saber. A lot of this hobby is compromise. Our normal blades don't generally look exactly as they do in the movies etc. though some are getting close.

As a side note, I don't understand where your hostility comes from. My original post about attitude on the forums -- I can say -- wasn't even directed at you at all. To the contrary you seemed quite supportive of this threads originator. I am truly sorry if I offended you. It was not my intention and I was not trying to engage in any personal attacks as however you now seem to be. That said, again, I'm sorry that the nature of one or more of my posts seems to have rubbed you the wrong way. I don't want to make any enemies here it's not how I operate. I can tell that you are one of the very knowledgeable folks roaming around here. As for me, I just really wanted to help AND honestly stick up for someone in this case who I believed was being treated wrongly AND similar folks that I've seen treated this way in other threads and in the shout box.

Again, I'm sorry I offended you and that my posts came across as hostile toward you. I'm ok with debate. I don't want to argue and again there's certainly no need to insult me. I am sorry if I did so to you.

[TimeRender]

No Erik. Read what I posted again. I am NOT TALKING about diffuser film. I am talking about light diffusion. Whatever you use as the UV reactive material will be what acts as the diffuser in your blade. The diffuser is simply whatever part of the blade you actually see because the light is bouncing visibly off of it. I thought you would understand that the first time I mentioned it, and when you didn't understand I tried to explain it, but somehow you're still not getting it.

I never intended to personally attack you until you put words in my mouth. I never called you an idiot. I only explained why you were wrong. However, if you are going to come into a dead thread and start telling everyone else that they are wrong and do not understand, even after the original poster is satisfied with the answers he was provided with, and then put words into MY mouth by accusing me of calling you an idiot, I am afraid I will have to agree with you. Leave that door closed in the future and it will never happen again.

[Jedi-Loreen]

Also just an FYI, I get the way EL wire works -- it runs the length of the blade and glows RATHER than shining up the tube as the LUX style setups do. I was proposing that __IF__ UV EL wire was available that _IT_ might be used in a similar but obviously modified arrangement. Perhaps inside the black core and the black core would need to have slits or something -- this was a fringe idea -- maybe ALL my ideas about this are.

Most people know how an EL blade works, that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about how ElectroLuminescent wire technology actually works.

I have described in several places in the EL forum.

If you understood that, you'd know why UV EL wire does not exist, because it wouldn't work.

I wouldn't expect everyone to know, or care, about how it works, especially with it being an older technology. I have tested, experimented and studied it more than most people would ever care to do because I wanted to know everything about it I could find information for, when I used to work with it.

[ErikTheHack]

Most people know how an EL blade works, that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about how ElectroLuminescent wire technology actually works.

I have described in several places in the EL forum.

If you understood that, you'd know why UV EL wire does not exist, because it wouldn't work.

I wouldn't expect everyone to know, or care, about how it works, especially with it being an older technology. I have tested, experimented and studied it more than most people would ever care to do because I wanted to know everything about it I could find information for, when I used to work with it.
Cool. Thanks for the correction. :)

[ErikTheHack]

No Erik. Read what I posted again. I am NOT TALKING about diffuser film. I am talking about light diffusion. Whatever you use as the UV reactive material will be what acts as the diffuser in your blade. The diffuser is simply whatever part of the blade you actually see because the light is bouncing visibly off of it. I thought you would understand that the first time I mentioned it, and when you didn't understand I tried to explain it, but somehow you're still not getting it.

Ok, glad at least I didn't explain my hair-brained idea as badly as I though :) I think that perhaps the reason I'm still not getting it is that we still seem to be talking about two completely separate concepts. You speak of light diffusion which is of course how we're used to seeing the saber blades work. What I'm talking about is changing the WAY the light we see from the blade is generated. What I propose is not seeing the diffused SB LED light but rather seeing the light generated from phosphorescence -- the phosphors glowing in the UV reactive "dope". The principals are different -- I'm sure you'll agree. I may still be totally full-of-it. That's what I'm going to find out through checking my hypothesis. I've already ordered the $40.00 worth of supplies to give it a go.

For interested parties see: A basic explanation of phosphorescence via UV light (http://science.howstuffworks.com/black-light.htm) Vs. Diffusion (http://science.howstuffworks.com/diffusion-physics-info.htm)

P.S. Sorry again, it simply sounded to me like you were insinuating that I was an idiot. I stand corrected and will not remark further on that.

[TimeRender]

Yes, the UV reactive material will be producing the light, but it will be activated by UV light emitted by the leds in the emitter. The UV dope that you are using therefore "acts" as the diffuser, by serving as the material off of which the UV light must be bounced. This means that while your visible light source is different, your blade will still function very much the same way that a traditional blade does, and will have many of the same restrictions. Namely, if the UV light from the LED cannot reach the UV reactive dope, it will not be illuminated. You see? The principals are not nearly as different as you seem to think.

[ErikTheHack]

Yes, the UV reactive material will be producing the light, but it will be activated by UV light emitted by the leds in the emitter. The UV dope that you are using therefore "acts" as the diffuser, by serving as the material off of which the UV light must be bounced. This means that while your visible light source is different, your blade will still function very much the same way that a traditional blade does, and will have many of the same restrictions. Namely, if the UV light from the LED cannot reach the UV reactive dope, it will not be illuminated. You see? The principals are not nearly as different as you seem to think.

You speak as if you are an absolute authority on matters such as these -- I must assume at this point you must me a physicist or possibly and RF engineer. So I'll cease trying to debate this with you an defer to your obviously superior knowledge of optics and fluorescence. I am after all simply playing around with an interesting problem as a neophyte and no physicist -- I'm just a lowly software engineer after all. I'll perform the experiment when the materials arrive next week and wait to prove myself wrong and you right.

For anyone interested in the actual physics behind my really dumb idea please read the following:

http://www.rp-photonics.com/fluorescence.html
http://www.rp-photonics.com/spontaneous_emission.html

[Kant Lavar]

Add me to the legions of "I promised I wouldn't post," but I'm going to try to save Eric a little money.

And just to head off any confusion, I hold no degrees of higher education whatsoever. My formal education and training are a high school degree and a certification as an intelligence analyst from the United States Army Intelligence Center at Fort Huachuca, Arizona. I was assigned to the 11th Air Defense Artillery Brigade at Fort Bliss, Texas, and as such most of what I know from there centers on the ballistic missile, anti-radiation missile, combat aircraft, and long-range rocket programs of certian countries. All I know about light and optics comes from what precious little I learned in school and from this hobby.

Now, Eric, I commend you for actually being willing to rise to the challenge here, but the general consensus here, which checks with what I know about how light behaves, is that it won't work.

Now, I think many of us are proceeding on the assumption that you are looking to recreate the effect seen in The Force Unleashed when you use the black lightsaber crystal, as seen here:

http://homepages.nyu.edu/~jjg353/pic1.jpg

It can indeed be done, but only by shining a light behind a black core - making the effect true to screen from one direction. An example would be holding up a finger to a light source. Given enough contrast between the light source and your overall environment (a computer screen in a dark room is perfect), the finger will appear black with a glow around it (the rest of the screen), when placed between your eyes and the monitor. However, if you move your finger or your eyes so you're looking at it from above or below, the effect is ruined and you can see your finger. Granted, this isn't a perfect example, but the principles are similar.

Now, what you propose is to place a string of LEDs around a black core in a blade. Yes, you're planning on using ultraviolet LEDs and instead of using the classic diffuser film, you'll be using some sort of coating on the inside of the blade to create the glow. However, because light from any source will travel in all possible directions, you will still get a diffusion effect when the UV-spectrum light hits the coating. Therefore, you won't see the black core, and the effect would be little different, I would imagine, than just putting a standard string of these UV LEDs in the blade without the black core.

The problem with creating a lightsaber like the one seen above in the real world rests on how we perceive "black" as different from any other color. As has been said before, black is the absence of any visible-spectrum light. A black piece of paper or black crayon absorbs most of the visible light that hits it, reflecting only a small percentage. Sunglasses work on a similar principle - the tinted lenses absorb most light, passing through only a small percentage of visible light. Therefore, it is impossible, in a three-dimensional environment, dependent only on one section of the electromagnetic spectrum for visible light, to create an object that is black, absorbing all light, while at the same time having a visible halo around it.

Now, with all that being said, if you aren't in fact trying to create a blade like we saw on the small screen in TFU, and are instead trying for a "next best" option, well, more power to you. But you still will have the problem of the black core serving no apparent purpose that I can see...

One last item, though: Just because you may read something in a particular fashion may not mean that it was meant that way. Humans derive a majority of meaning from a statement by how the words are said, and the body language of the speaker, as opposed to just what is said. On the internet, all we have is pixels on a screen; let the reader beware of jumping to conclusions. (Though, granted, the writer should be cognizant of this, too...)

Sorry if this made little sense: it's 0345, my time, and I'm still awake for some ungodly reason... :roll:

[ErikTheHack]

Add me to the legions of "I promised I wouldn't post," but I'm going to try to save Eric a little money.

Thanks but I'm afraid it's now too late the money has been spent and orders are being prepared :eek:

I also very much appreciate your well thought out take on what's now become my white whale -- or black saber blade as it were :)

I think everyone here pretty much agrees that: A) creating this effect EXACTLY and having a useable saber that does this is just not possible. B) Various techniques proposed by others and yourself could be employed to create some sort of display saber that closely approximated this.

Now, that said, what I am going to TRY will use an array of ~8 HO UV LEDs arranged in a circle with a black core in the center of the circle and a pollycarb tube (minus any diffuser film) specially treated with a UV reactive reagent on it's inside. You mention my mention of an LED string that's not what I'm going to build -- it was merely another possible arrangement for the LEDs I was putting forward.

Now what I believe is that when activated the effect will be SIMILAR to the Starkiller Black Blade. BTW, one of the big differences is that a white halo or aura (whatever you want to call it) WON'T be possible with my method (at least not from what I've seen so far). In my experiment the glow will be BLUE but could be pretty much any color. Blue, Green, Red, Yellow, Orange, etc. are all readily available as well as "natural" deep violet. I've been informed in no uncertain terms that this will NOT work the way I am thinking. Granted. It may very well not. But I remain convinced that a UV induced fluorescence effect will not be the same as our typical light diffusion based illumination methods.

Again, I urge folks if they really want to know where my insanity on this comes from to read:

http://www.rp-photonics.com/fluorescence.html

and also importantly:

http://www.rp-photonics.com/spontaneous_emission.html

which explains the nitty-gritty.

As it stands I should have delivery of my HO UV LEDs and UV reactive reagent by early next week, and all things being good it should only take an evening of uninterrupted work to run the experiment.

Then you can all feel free to point and laugh and I'll eat my hat and shut up about this forever ;)

[TimeRender]

I've drawn up a little diagram to illustrate one of the problems with what you have planned. As I mentioned before, the close proximity of the LED to the sidewall of the blade is going to drastically diminish the amount of light that will actually reach the blade's tip. Here is why...

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h241/TimeRender/light.jpg

The image on the left represents a standard saber. The luxeon is at the center of the blade. The photons are being emitted evenly from the LED, but as they travel down the length of the blade they become more and more spread out. As the photons strike the side of the blade, in this case with a thin wrap of diffuser film inside of it, they are redirected out towards the eye. Where the photons are more spread out, the blade will appear dimmer.

The image on the right represents a blade with a ring of UV leds surrounding a light-impermeable black core, and enclosed in a UV reactive blade. Although it is emitting just as much light as the luxeon (in the diagram only, in real life it's not even close) and although it is emitting the light just as evenly, the photons aren't traveling diagonally to the direction of the blade for a long enough distance to be able to travel to the blade's tip. When those photons strike the side of the blade, in this case covered in your fluorescent dope, the fluorescent material will emit a visible photon towards the eye. The material towards the end of the blade will go very faintly, if at all, because they aren't being struck by enough of the ultraviolet light.

Now, that's just one of the problems. Another even more fundamental problem is that fluorescent materials under an ultraviolet light source are never as luminous as ordinary objects under a similarly intense visible light source. Add on top of that the fact that even multiple UV LEDs aren't as bright as a single Luxeon to begin with, and you are going to end up with a pretty weak effect.

You've never explained why you think UV light will be able to produce an effect that visible light cannot. Also, no one is actually going to SEE the UV light. What we will see is light in the VISIBLE spectrum being emitted from the fluorescent material on the blade. Visible light is visible light is visible light. Why not cut out the middle man and START with visible light instead?

And of course none of this addresses the issue that if you have a bright outer blade, you will not be able to see the inner core, and conversely if you can see the inner core then you won't have a glowing white halo. As it has been pointed out before, the effect that Vor was trying to create can only be achieved in the real world from one viewing angle. This can be done by backlighting a black opaque blade-shaped cutout on the wall, or by putting a piece of black tape on an ordinary saber blade as WT suggested, or by a number of other methods. But it is still just a 2-dimensional solution. If you have a bright halo of light surrounding a dark object, what you will see is the halo. Period. That is because the black object is not reflecting or producing ANY photons. It is essentially invisible. Light is visible. If you put a visible object in front of an invisible one, which are you going to see?

I am not a physicist, but I do have a brain and I know how to use it. This isn't complicated science here. It should not require a degree to understand, nor should it require an absolute authority to illustrate why it isn't possible.

[ErikTheHack]

I've drawn up a little diagram to illustrate one of the problems with what you have planned. As I mentioned before, the close proximity of the LED to the sidewall of the blade is going to drastically diminish the amount of light that will actually reach the blade's tip. Here is why...

As I said to you before, you MUST be right. I'm done debating this with you. You obviously see certain flaws in my logic that I can say nothing for you to be able to put aside -- suspend your disbelief long enough for me to actually run the tests. And I've obviously done a poor job in my attempts to communicate the totality of the concept in previous attempts. So until I can as you put it, I can "put up or shut-up" we can _all_ assume that you are right and I am wrong. Simple. Satisfied? As I said before _I've_ already spent my hard earned money so I can prove myself wrong and you right. Happy?

Sorry to seem so snippy but to paraphrase Shakespeare's Hamlet: You doth protest too much.
[begin edit]
Or to put it another way: I'm kinda starting to think you have your ego so wrapped around being RIGHT about me being WRONG and you're acting out because there may be a slight chance, a remote possibility that I am actually RIGHT. So, you have to continue asserting as FACT ever more forcefully what is merely your BELIEF. I hope that clears up my clumsy use of the Hamlet quote.
[end edit]

I'm not trying to lead anyone astray here -- I'm trying to find a way to solve an intractable problem. I'm sure there are several people on this forum (judging by how irritated some were by the "oh no not this question AGAIN" nature of some of the responses to this thread) would like to have a way to do this. Actually, I for one am not at all interested in HAVING a saber that does this. What can I say, I'm a sucker for a lost cause. I don't like the word "impossible" thrown around. I love difficult problems. I like thinking way outside the box. I don't mind being wrong. I also have a problem with people that bully and exhibit hostility toward others for asking a simple question. I guess even at 41 I've never outgrown my childish curiosity about the world and the need to put my hands on things to believe that they are what they are. This all has served me quite well to date.

You're clearly convinced that I'm a moron or at least that your intellect is obviously vastly superior to mine. That I even and obviously don't understand the basic behaviors of photons. Fine. I'm perfectly OK with it.

BTW, I visited your MySpace page -- I think I kinda get who you are and where your coming from. Cool. I've listened to you. I've agreed with much of what you have posted here.

Thanks for your input. In a week or so you can have a blast dancing on my corpse.

[$tarkiller]

OK people play nice if you want to stop the exchange of ideas from others just keep telling others they have a bad idea. BUT if you get a out there idea expect the same treatment of your idea.
So There are black blades leon paul had a black bell guard and black blade at the us nat champion ships I saw it. I wanted it and tryed to buy it. ( this is a real us fencing saber -steel) its was very cool but they were not selling it it was a proto type.
So i was thinking a black blade would show up better in daylight but it would not glow it could be a demo blade in a show and switch to a purple blade when the lights go out so it glows. or in my fight club if you wanted a black ploycarbon blade and fight us with that ok with me. I look at want people want
why not a black blade why not pink or red striped guys do not make people unhappy if we can think about we can do it.
By god if our young men are fighting overseas and one of them wants a three color blade that plays ring around the rosey I will try to get it done.
So a black blade ok can a black blade glow I don't know but I am willing to try it out. if you don't try you don't win.
so i will paint a blade black and give it a shot.
and if i fail ok what more can i try. we are unstopable as long as we work together. And I will always try to keep a open mind.
cause a lot of people will call us geeks because we like to dream.
We went to the moon and made starwars, so let us not call others
to task for BAD IDEAS maybe we can do it and some day maybe a real lightsaber will be made and it could be black ( If you don't think the color black is real then for give me oh king and the sigh said long hair frekie people need not apply.
make friends not war.
I will always try to give a open reply to any person. we fight so others can talk
about us that makes us great.

WT

huh??

[Jester]

Read the first couple of posts:rolleyes:

You can use Tim's tinted blade if you want that effect.

The rest of the discussion is educating (not successfully) the n00bs on the physics of light.


My bad, I thought it was about suggestions, or ideas.

[ErikTheHack]

My bad, I thought it was about suggestions, or ideas.

Yeah, me too. Perhaps THAT'S where _I_ went astray.

[TimeRender]

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" is an idiom that means you think I secretly agree with you, which we both know is untrue. If you're going to quote Shakespeare to show off your intellect, at least know what the line means.

[ErikTheHack]

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" is an idiom that means you think I secretly agree with you, which we both know is untrue. If you're going to quote Shakespeare to show off your intellect, at least know what the line means.

Oh why do I even bother? <-- A rhetorical question just so ya know.

[nartules]

Oh why do I even bother? <-- A rhetorical question just so ya know.



Just thought I would raise a thred from the dead, posted a new one, but someone has posted some rather interesting pics over at the fx sabers forums

http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=24111.0

[TimeRender]

Hmmm... I get skeptical whenever I see posts like this. He only posted one picture, in which it appears he already has achieved the desired result, but then goes on to tell us that it's still in development. Then he gives vague details about exactly how he is achieving the result. Until he posts his method and until his results are duplicated by a reputable saber builder, I'll reserve judgment. I still maintain that a black core inside a blade will not be possible without either a specialized optic or a ring of LEDs, due to the fact that in an ordinary setup all of the visible light that illuminates the blade actually travels through the center where the opaque core would be located. Even if you direct the light up the sides of the outer tube around the black core, you will NEVER get a totally black core, merely a dim one. I suspect all he has done is take a photo of a regular blade with something opaque and smaller in width sitting on top of it. Someone who is a member of that forum, keep an eye on this topic and post here when there is more information.

[Onli-Won Kanomi]

A black core IS theoretically possible using interference pattern wave cancelling...if he has achieved that I'd be quite impressed since I expect it would be very difficult R&D and I've always thought impractical. I will await further details.

[TimeRender]

It cannot be done with interference patterns either. All that will do is create dark areas where it will seem as if there is no light. However, those dark areas are not created in your eye, they are created on the surface onto which the light is being cast. This means that the dark spot will not follow your eyes as you move around the blade. In other words, even if you can cast a black interference pattern on one side of the blade, when you view it from another angle it will still be illuminated. If you are satisfied creating that effect, the same thing can be done simply by running two rows of black electrical tape down the length of your blade.

[Goltar Bias]

Going to keep an eye on this my self. Is soething i would like to know how to do just for the novel effect alone.

[Onli-Won Kanomi]

It cannot be done with interference patterns either. All that will do is create dark areas where it will seem as if there is no light. However, those dark areas are not created in your eye, they are created on the surface onto which the light is being cast. This means that the dark spot will not follow your eyes as you move around the blade. In other words, even if you can cast a black interference pattern on one side of the blade, when you view it from another angle it will still be illuminated. If you are satisfied creating that effect, the same thing can be done simply by running two rows of black electrical tape down the length of your blade.

I think it could but you would need MOVING parts inside the blade so that the dark 'core' would appear to "follow your eyes as you move around the blade"...imo it would not be worth the time and experimental effort to find the proper slit sizes and spin rates which is why I've said it seems an impractical approach to me...plus you'd have a blade that would be heavy and probably not duelable since the slightest knock out of alignment would be likely to destroy the 'illusion'.

So I kinda doubt that is what he's done...but if so I suspect it would be impressive effort.

He's going to have to put up his methodology because otherwise we will reasonably doubt.

[TimeRender]

Moving parts would only work if the saber could track what it was moving in relation to, and if you could build a saber that can do that you wouldn't need to use interference patterns, you could just use something like black tape.

Speaking of totally impractical and stationary ways to achieve the effect, it occurred to me that it may be possible with a polarized film on the blade and a pair of sunglasses that are polarized at a 90 degree angle. This would allow you to view the blade from 360 degrees, but the illusion would be destroyed the moment you tilted the blade in relation to the glasses. Since the blade would have to remain stationary for the effect to work, you might as well just make a 2 dimensional blade and backlight it for hanging on a wall. Still, I thought I would share an equally impossible idea.

[Tyhm]

Dark would be possible; pretty simple opaque core and light up the blade just barely enough so you need a good depth of flowing light to see anything - the distance between the blade and the core, when viewed in the middle, would be a very dark barely-illuminated red, and the sides would go from brightest red (where the edge of the "eclipse" peaks through and you can see clear to the other side of the blade) and darken around the edges...but it wouldn't do much good in a lighted room, because as previously stated, it would be a barely-lit saber.

Oh yes, and diffraction film (or poly wrap) too, naturally, you'd need a lot to make the space between the blade and core meaningfully opaque - or rather, to catch the light significantly more than the blade itself

[Jase Kala Maris]

This should be the NEXT TCSS SABER CONTEST!!!!!!!

BEST BLACK SABER!!!!
Only light up! no sound, basic MHS hilt!

I'm in. I'm going to get right to work so I don't miss this dead line like I missed the last one!

[TimeRender]

Tyhm, I'm having a difficult time following what exactly you are suggesting. Could you explain it again more clearly?

[Tyhm]

Not without illustration. Therefore to MSPaint! Lulz...

The red is crumpled poly wrap, diffracting the light coming up from the base; it is the red that the viewer will see.
The black is the core; a matte black spray-painted dowel is fine, nothing too elaborate.
The gray is the outer shell, which shouldn't be as light-up as the poly
wrap in this setup; perhaps it is painted black at the lower edge so light doesn't try and fiber-optic all the way up, something like that.

At point 1, the viewer sees through 11 pixelsworth of the red before their line of sight is terminated by the black core; this might make it a dark red, but doesn't light it much.
At point 2, the viewer sees through 37 pixelsworth of the red; this is the brightest this particular saber gets
At point 3, the viewer sees through 21 pixelsworth, and is twice as bright as the "black" part.

It might work. I don't have a saber to test it with though, I'm poor. :-(

[TimeRender]

No... We've been through this already on this thread. Won't work. Go back and read the explanations that already exist. Also, you mean diffusion, not diffraction.

[Sunrider]

Ok for people who want to attempt this concept. Study how lenticular plastic sheeting works. If applied in the right orientation over the whole blade this should give you what you want.

Wiki description

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenticular_printing

Sheeting source & info

http://lenstarlenticular.com/?gclid=CKTe25XSi6ICFRDxDAodnkYoUA

It looks like wide viewing angle sheet is what you need.

"You must do what you feel is right of course";)

[Goltar Bias]

Unless I am wrong the way to make that work would still require a liner inside the blade with slits in it that alternated between light emitting and dark so the depending on how things lined up you would eithe see light or no light in that particular lense on the strip. Has a possiblity of working and produceing
the desired effect but getting the liner for the blade interior would be a massive pain, not to mention positioning it just right.

[Tyhm]

No... We've been through this already on this thread. Won't work. Go back and read the explanations that already exist. Also, you mean diffusion, not diffraction.

Sorry, too many plates spinning at once; the celophane DIFFUSES the light.

And it would too; why do you think light sabers are brighter in the middle than at the sides? Because they're thicker in the middle than at the sides, yes? More "rays" of light bouncing in that direction, etc. What I suggest is reversing the structure, so that the areas with the most exposure to the light are at the edges of the "eclipse"; you would of course have to do something clever with reflectors to route the light Around the core instead of losing it In the core, but that's left as an exercise for the reader...perhaps simply using reflector-optics and an imperfect mirror at the base of the core to send the rays back into the dish until they come out somewhere more useful.
And even then it wouldn't be true Black And White; the black core would be Admittedly just "Dark". Like, "edge of the lighsaber" dark. Which is still progress.

Although DIFFRACTION grating would work too, you'd just need to print 2 sheets that alternate clear and opaque in such a way that they have the same number of bands but different radii; match them carefully, roll them up, and stick 'em in the tube. This would cause any light in the "tube" to exit at the sides, not directly at the viewer...if you can find a transparent way to securely fix these sheets and the gap between, you're all set. Should even hold up to a duel.

[Sunrider]

Unless I am wrong the way to make that work would still require a liner inside the blade with slits in it that alternated between light emitting and dark so the depending on how things lined up you would eithe see light or no light in that particular lense on the strip. Has a possiblity of working and produceing
the desired effect but getting the liner for the blade interior would be a massive pain, not to mention positioning it just right.
__________________


The basic principal is the sheet can be made to not let light pass straight thru but can be seen at an angle. Like a sticker from a cracker jack box where the image changes when turned at different angles. Difficult to get the sheeting characteristics right? Yes. Difficult to apply to a dual worthy blade? I can only imagine. And wow the price of a large sheet $200. Dam :eek:



Worth all the effort? I don't imagine so.;)

[TimeRender]

No tyhm, you simply don't understand what you are talking about. I don't feel like typing out what has already been written, so just go back and read what is already there. Putting an opaque inner core in a blade won't give you a black bladed saber, it will just give you one that doesn't light up beyond the first half of an inch. Filling the empty space in the blade with cellophane won't make the blade brighter or more even, it will actually make it dimmer.

[Tyhm]

no tyhm, you simply don't understand what you are talking about. I don't feel like typing out what has already been written, so just go back and read what is already there. Putting an opaque inner core in a blade won't give you a black bladed saber, it will just give you one that doesn't light up beyond the first half of an inch. Filling the empty space in the blade with cellophane won't make the blade brighter or more even, it will actually make it dimmer.


you would of course have to do something clever with reflectors to route the light around the core instead of losing it in the core, but that's left as an exercise for the reader...perhaps simply using reflector-optics and an imperfect mirror at the base of the core to send the rays back into the dish until they come out somewhere more useful.
And even then it wouldn't be true black and white; the black core would be admittedly just "dark". Like, "edge of the lighsaber" dark. Which is still progress.


TLDR? Tsk tsk, you have to read things around here. ;-D


The basic principal is the sheet can be made to not let light pass straight thru but can be seen at an angle. Like a sticker from a cracker jack box where the image changes when turned at different angles. Difficult to get the sheeting characteristics right? Yes. Difficult to apply to a dual worthy blade? I can only imagine. And wow the price of a large sheet $200. Dam :eek:



Worth all the effort? I don't imagine so.;)

Wouldn't we be able to get the same effect from the staggered opaque (or mirrored) stripes though? I mean let's say we get a 3/4" polyc tube, and we stripe it with 1/8" strips of mylar tape, perfectly straight somehow, each stripe perfectly 1/16" apart; then we do the same thing on the inside, but so that the inner stripes cover the outer gaps, and vice versa; then we slide the assembly into a standard thin-wall 1" blade tube, would we then have a blade such that the light can be seen only at angles but not straight-on?

[TimeRender]

I did read that tyhm, but you didn't read what I said. I'm not saying that the core would be dark, therefore what you "admitted" has no bearing on my remarks. What I am saying is that NO LIGHT will travel up the blade more than half an inch if you have a black inner core and fill the rest up with cellophane. If that's how you define a "black blade" then everyone on this forum already has one. It's what you get when you turn your saber off. Don't accuse others of not reading when you clearly haven't read anything yourself.

[Tyhm]

Ah, then perhaps the fault Is mine; I intend not to jam the entire tube with opacity but instead a 1/2" core, leaving roughly 1/4" of blade on either side, with the standard cello wrap for light diffusion; though if that so offends you, feel free to run it without, it isn't actually important. Though I suppose that even assuming perfect optics, there remains the trouble that any light dim enough not to drown out the black core will necessarily fail to transmit all the way to the top of the blade tube, and any light bright enough to light the tube all the way up would necessarily drown out the black core, yes?

Which would necessitate some clever way to distribute light up the tube...yes, I see your point, a single LED saber can't be both very bright and very dim at the same time...I haven't done any work with fiber optics, so it's tempting to say THOSE could carry dim light all the way up to the tip, but that's just silly.

Still, I maintain that in a parallel dimension where dim light can travel the way I want it to, the solid core would work just fine. ;-D

[TimeRender]

Though I suppose that even assuming perfect optics, there remains the trouble that any light dim enough not to drown out the black core will necessarily fail to transmit all the way to the top of the blade tube, and any light bright enough to light the tube all the way up would necessarily drown out the black core, yes?

Which would necessitate some clever way to distribute light up the tube...yes, I see your point, a single LED saber can't be both very bright and very dim at the same time...

I edited your quote to get to the meat of the issue.
No, that's not my point either. PLEASE read more before you post. My point is that the light in a single LED blade propagates from the center at the very bottom of the blade and must travel in straight lines in all directions directly through the blade's center. If you put an opaque object down the entire center of the blade, the light will not be able to reach the blade regardless of how bright it is. You are correct also that any light bright enough to be visible will drown out the black core, and I have mentioned that before as well, but that is a moot point since the black core will prevent us from ever getting any light in our blades at all. People seem to have the mistaken impression that the light is traveling parallel to the length of the blade, but this is only true for a very small percentage of the light that is emitted. If the light was traveling parallel to the blade the way a laser might, we would lose most of the light that it generates. People also seem to forget that light changes direction when it strikes an object that it cannot pass through. That's why our blades have to be hollow. If they were filled with diffusive material, the light would get trapped at the base of the blade. That is why we make them the way we make them. They are hollow so light can reach the very top, they are lined with a thin sheet of diffuser so the light has something to bounce off of, and we put optics on the LED to ensure that the light is spread out not-entirely evenly. It must be more intense as it approaches vertical because it will be more spread out by the time it gets there. I can't believe I had to type that all out AGAIN. Next time someone asks you to read, don't make assumptions, just go read.

[Rhyen Skytracker]

I think that to have the black core effect you wouild have to have a black core. Maybe a 1/4" rod in the center mounted by drilling a hole in the tip and the bottom somehow. The problem will be modifing the optice to make the light go around the rod. This will be a mojor issue since we use optice that force the light up the center. If someone really knew optics it may be possible. I am trying to think of a way to mount the rod in the blade holder with out affecting the optics but I just can't think of a way at the moment. I havent given up yet though. hehe

[TimeRender]

Rhyen, the optic that would be required will never exist because it would not be practical for anything but making black bladed lightsabers. Most optics, including the ones we use, are designed to create a beam that is brightest at it's center. What we would need is something that creates a beam that is shaped like a doughnut, with no light being wasted in the center at all. If such an optic were ever made, we would still have the problem of being able to see a black core through the bright halo. If the optic I just described works correctly, the end result will scarcely look any different from what we use right now.

Please people, try to understand the concept here. Putting a black core in your blade DOES NOT, CAN NOT, WILL NEVER give you a black bladed lightsaber. The idea is simply NOT POSSIBLE using that technique. It isn't that difficult to understand.

Edit: Also, such an optic would need to have a 1 inch diameter, which would not be compatible with our current blade holders. A new blade holder could be created, but I assure you that the end result would NOT be a black bladed saber. If it worked PERFECTLY it would create a blade that is just as bright as what we have currently.

[Sunrider]

Hey maybe that's why they made the rebel endor stars like that. ;) You could try 3 light tubes in a blade & line them up with the leds.;)

[Goltar Bias]

The basic principal is the sheet can be made to not let light pass straight thru but can be seen at an angle. Like a sticker from a cracker jack box where the image changes when turned at different angles. Difficult to get the sheeting characteristics right? Yes. Difficult to apply to a dual worthy blade? I can only imagine. And wow the price of a large sheet $200. Dam :eek:



Worth all the effort? I don't imagine so.;)

Ok thought this needed a bit more explanation. So far the most plausible idea I have heard is the lenticular idea. It requires no moveing parts and could be made as a sleeve to fit over an existing (for show) or possible inside a thinwall blade (for dueling). One could not duel with the sleeve on the outside of the blade as any damage to the lenticular lense would affect the illusion. Putting it inside a thin wall would protect the lense and
reinforce the blade a bit(dont know how much). To better illustrate the idea I turn to an ms paint illustration.
http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww338/nefreeze/blackblade.jpg
The black mentioned in the illustration most likely would be better server as a full reflective coating which would help with putting more light through the clear area and also produce a black stripe from the back of the coat.
The inner portion the creates the illusion could be as simple as a acetate sticker on a diffuser or directly applied to the lenticular, which would be best as the there would not be a problem with it shifting and ruining the illusion. As mentioned in the quote above this would not be a cheap thing to do. But it is the best way i can see it being made to work, and may be what the person on fx-sabers that posted the teaser did. And if it is doing a run of the would be the only way he could recope the cost.

[Sunrider]

Yes good show. That is what you would need. It doesn't sound like this is whats being attempted but hard to be sure. Good work.:)

[TimeRender]

Possibly. THIS is the sort of idea that merits experimentation in my opinion, because it cannot easily be refuted with simple thought experiments. At least not by me.

[Tyhm]

I like the idea of Lenticular, but I wonder if it'd be effectively the same thing as 2 layers of Diffraction grating aligned so that at the middle it blocks and at the edges light shines through?



Wouldn't we be able to get the same effect from the staggered opaque (or mirrored) stripes though? I mean let's say we get a 3/4" polyc tube, and we stripe it with 1/8" strips of mylar tape, perfectly straight somehow, each stripe perfectly 1/16" apart; then we do the same thing on the inside, but so that the inner stripes cover the outer gaps, and vice versa; then we slide the assembly into a standard thin-wall 1" blade tube, would we then have a blade such that the light can be seen only at angles but not straight-on?

Or using some carefully constructed paint...brush? Spreader? Dripper? I'm not sure what would be the best way to lay down perfectly straight lines...laser etcher? Does anyone have one that can do the INside of a tube in straight lines? It'd be more labor intensive but a lot cheaper...

[Goltar Bias]

I like the idea of Lenticular, but I wonder if it'd be effectively the same thing as 2 layers of Diffraction grating aligned so that at the middle it blocks and at the edges light shines through?



Or using some carefully constructed paint...brush? Spreader? Dripper? I'm not sure what would be the best way to lay down perfectly straight lines...laser etcher? Does anyone have one that can do the INside of a tube in straight lines? It'd be more labor intensive but a lot cheaper...

It wouldn't work with out the lenticular lense setup because the lense acts as a focusing guide for the veiwer. if you took the lense off of lenticular moveing image of 3d image it looses the effect the lense gives it. This is because the lense only allows you to see on or the other strip from a particular angle. So if it works properly for the blade being a cylender the no matter what angle you view the blade from 360 degrees around you see a black core and a illuminated glow. With out the lense you would see stripes.

[Tyhm]

It wouldn't work with out the lenticular lense setup because the lense acts as a focusing guide for the veiwer. if you took the lense off of lenticular moveing image of 3d image it looses the effect the lense gives it. This is because the lense only allows you to see on or the other strip from a particular angle. So if it works properly for the blade being a cylender the no matter what angle you view the blade from 360 degrees around you see a black core and a illuminated glow. With out the lense you would see stripes.

Yeahyeah, I don't mean "Hey let's take a lenticular image and remove the lens" like in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvvcRdwNhGM&feature=player_embedded or "Let's use a zoetrope", I mean more like "Let's take 2 zoetropes, one big, one small, each with exactly 12 apertures, and align them so that one opening runs into the other's wall and vice versa, so that the only way light can escape the middle is at extreme angles." See figure A below

And just to further annoy TimeRender by reading his words exactly as written: If a solid core is the problem, then (Once again assuming it's possible to barely illuminate a blade sufficiently that you need to see the light from the front and back edge)...;-D

(Seriously though, I still don't understand why the center would be brighter than the edges if we buy into the Illuminated Skin theory of saber lighting...)

PS - I don't really mean to be such a troll, but you guys DID demand I Read Before Posting on an off-topic flameathon. Nothing gets my hackles up like someone blindly insisting the truth can be found somewhere in page 2 of a 5 page rant on why there are no black LEDs...

[TimeRender]

And just to further annoy TimeRender by reading his words exactly as written: If a solid core is the problem, then (Once again assuming it's possible to barely illuminate a blade sufficiently that you need to see the light from the front and back edge)...;-D

Ok, first of all you are acting like a troll now. Secondly, you never finished the sentence that I just quoted, so I have no idea what point you were trying to make. Third, the answer IS back a few pages, and it has nothing to do with there not being black LEDs. I also posted the answer on the OTHER black blade threads with pretty little pictures that even YOU should be able to understand. You should go read it and quit making a fool out of yourself.

Edit: You must be the bottle feeding type, so I'll tell you that the answer was posted all the way back on page 4 post 37. Everything before and after that would be useful reading for you as well, but that specifically is the post I have been telling you to read all along. If you want the answer with pictures, go to the "black blade development" thread and read post 53 on page 6. So don't pull that BS "Nothing gets my hackles up like someone blindly insisting the truth can be found somewhere in page 2 of a 5 page rant on why there are no black LEDs... " when you OBVIOUSLY never read the thread. I'm calling you out!

[Tyhm]

Oh lighten up, it was a joke. There were 2 figures attached to that post; the second was for you. An inverted core, shaped like a + sign. Get it? The light wouldn't be interrupted by the solid core, it would flow around it like a knife; and in theory the light at point 1 would be as dark as the light at point 3, and point 2 would be twice as bright. (I'm afraid you'll have to scroll up to see the illustration, as the forum will not let me repost illustrations - it assumes everyone saw it the first time I suppose).

But this assumes the depth of the blade at the point of viewing determines brightness; perhaps it's angle, or the amount of PC the photons have to pass through, that explains why it's brighter in the middle and dimmer at the edges. Oh well, it was intended as a joke anyway; thought a fellow Pastafarian would get that.


Ok, first of all you are acting like a troll now. Secondly, you never finished the sentence that I just quoted, so I have no idea what point you were trying to make. Third, the answer IS back a few pages, and it has nothing to do with there not being black LEDs. I also posted the answer on the OTHER black blade threads with pretty little pictures that even YOU should be able to understand. You should go read it and quit making a fool out of yourself.

Edit: You must be the bottle feeding type, so I'll tell you that the answer was posted all the way back on page 4 post 37. Everything before and after that would be useful reading for you as well, but that specifically is the post I have been telling you to read all along. If you want the answer with pictures, go to the "black blade development" thread and read post 53 on page 6. So don't pull that BS "Nothing gets my hackles up like someone blindly insisting the truth can be found somewhere in page 2 of a 5 page rant on why there are no black LEDs... " when you OBVIOUSLY never read the thread. I'm calling you out!


Firedrops, I saw your idea, but I already explained a few posts prior why it won't work. You have to ask yourself this; if the light is shining up all 360 degrees of the blade, why can I only see the light at the edges? The answer is that you can't. If the outer blade is illuminated, you won't see the black core, you will only see the light. Before you go accusing people of not reading your post, you might want to be sure you have read and understand everyone else's.

But perhaps I was unclear, so I will explain it again. Go get your nearest lightsaber and hold your hand up behind it with the blade turned off. You will be able to see a blurry hand because the blade is translucent. Now turn on the lightsaber. Can you still see your blurry hand? No, because even though the blade is still translucent, it appears to be opaque. If you could successfully illuminate the outer blade with a black opaque blade in the center, what you would see would be no different. The black blade would be completely obscured by the light. You will only see the black core when the light is dim or completely off, and this is not the effect that anyone is looking for. If you need more proof, go find the nearest lightbulb and tell me what color the filament is when it's turned on. (Please don't actually do that anyone. I will not be held responsible for your blindness.)

And all of that is supposing you find a way to brightly and evenly light the outer tube when the center is completely obstructed by the black core, which is impossible. The light from the LED doesn't travel up the sides of the PC blade. It travels through the CENTER of the blade across an angle of either 5 or 10 degrees, depending on the optics used, until the light hits the outer tube and is diffused.

Now I want to make it clear that the reason this will not work actually has nothing to do with the fact that black is the absence of light, or with the behavior of photons, or the wavelengths of different colors of light. All the people who said those things are making this much more complicated than it needs to be and are missing the far more fundamental flaws in this plan. I think anyone here on the forums ought to be able to understand the very SIMPLE reasons I mentioned above as to why this won't work, but I swear to the Flying Spaghetti Monster that if this conversation goes on much longer I will come back with diagrams! DIAGRAMS! You have been warned.

Yes, I did read that, I thought it was one of the few well-made points in the 11 page cluster of
Black blades only work in the movies using CGI or in video games. Sure it can be done that way but why? I suppose it could be a CGI black tendril-like miasma or something but again, why?
I'm not sure the filament bit was a good point - the core (or imaginary core) of a lightsaber is not the light source, whereas the filament is. Though the wires that hold up the filament would be roughly serving as the core, so I guess that works. Still - are we talking clear bulbs or frosted? Clear bulbs you can, theoretically, see the wires holding up the lighting element (filament) for certain wattages; frosted bulbs you can't see through even when they're shut off. Then there's the Flickering Flame special effect bulbs - very low wattage, very low light, and you can see the Black Core of the "Tongue of Flame" shape even when they're on, though granted only from the proper sides.
_______________

As for your other point:

Matt, oh you disappoint me. What I took objection to, and I have explained this many many many times, is the dark core. Under a normal LED setup, a black core will prevent light from escaping the blade holder. Period. There are still 100 other reasons why this won't work, but that is the fundamental problem. That proves that even YOU haven't read what I have been saying all along. I feel that the only way I can get people to understand this BASIC problem is to draw a diagram. I will return...

Edit: I'm back. My CAD software hasn't been reinstalled since I reformatted last, so it's just a simple paint sketch.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h241/TimeRender/quicksketch.jpg
The left represents a regular single LED lightsaber blade in cross-section. I know the scale isn't quite right, so please don't nitpick. The right represents an LED blade with an opaque black core. Now, light travels in straight lines from the point of origin, in this case the LED and optic. However, it doesn't travel parallel to the length of the blade. Instead it fans out. This is important. If the light traveled parallel to the blade, it would never cross paths with the diffuser and you would never see it. If you want to illustrate this point for yourself, go grab a laser pointer and shine it down the center of a blade. Your blade won't light up. That's because the light isn't coming in contact with the diffuser. So in the picture on the left, you can see how the light fills the entire inside of the blade as it fans out from the optic. On the left, an opaque blade insert has been added. The light still fans out in straight lines from the optic, but it cannot CHANGE DIRECTION after it passes the opaque obstruction. What that means, and the picture illustrates this, is that the light will NEVER leave the blade holder. Period. Internal reflection doesn't become a factor at all because there is no light for the interior to reflect. Now, a SMALL amount of that light will be scattered by the diffuser back into the blade and up towards the blade's tip. However, all you will see is a thin halo of light around the emitter. Have you seen Chaos's blade plugs? It would look kinda like that, only with a big ugly unlit blade attached. Now, there is a way around this... sortof... and I will post another picture as soon as I have drawn it.

Edit Edit: Ok. Now, someone suggested that an optic be made that can get around the problem of the opaque core blocking the light. I said that such an optic WAS possible, but that it would never be made because it would have no practical application. Here is a simple sketch of what would be required.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h241/TimeRender/quicksketch2.jpg
Now, you'll notice that the optic in this diagram is the same diameter as the blade. This would be necessary. That means that a blade holder would have to be modified, or you would have to wait for one of the new ones that Tim is working on now. Additionally, the optic would work best if it was designed to project a doughnut shaped beam rather than one that is solid and brightest at it's center. This would reduce wasted luminous intensity. Next, and this isn't represented in my sketch, the optic would need to have a very low angle and it would need to direct the light in such a way that it is brightest at the inner edge of the doughnut. However, if ALL of this could be done, you would still come across the second problem which is that when a transparent object becomes illuminated, it loses it's apparent transparency. If you dimmed the light enough, this internal reflection idea might work. However, what you would have is merely a dim blade with a brighter aura, and the difference between the two would not be very noticeable. If you increased the brightness the illusion would be destroyed entirely because you would restore the opacity. Your blade would also have to sacrifice it's diffuser film, because that would blend the light so much that the difference between the dim core and slightly less dim aura would no longer be visible.

Let's just wrap this up. An opaque core WILL NEVER be the solution to this problem. Period.

I will refer you to my earlier acknowledgement and rebuttal:

you would of course have to do something clever with reflectors to route the light Around the core instead of losing it In the core, but that's left as an exercise for the reader...perhaps simply using reflector-optics and an imperfect mirror at the base of the core to send the rays back into the dish until they come out somewhere more useful.
And even then it wouldn't be true Black And White; the black core would be Admittedly just "Dark". Like, "edge of the lighsaber" dark. Which is still progress.


So now that's 3 times I've acknowledged that the shop standard 5 degree optics wouldn't work; so now for the 3rd time I'll ask without any real hope of anything but a n00b-flame response, what about different optics? Doing Something Clever With Reflectors, or Side-Optics, or both? Surely it is heresy to speak of other distributors, but such things do exist, and R&D is the spirit of the hobby, so see the attachment, which does not link to the rival site; such optics do exist. With a side-optic "Donut shaped" lens and hypothetical custom-made reflectors, and probably a wider than standard saber tube, would it be possible to make a toroid shaped light source? With a 6wire buckpuck and linear potentiometer, would it be able to light the edges just enough so that one can still "See their hand on the other side"? Would it be able to light it enough so that you can't see clean through but can still see the core? Would it only work for very short lightsabers even then?

But that's the Solidcore/Reflector theory. I'll grant the Solidcore-no reflector theory won't work; I don't believe anyone's actually advocating that anymore, but if it gives you any pleasure to debunk it, feel free.


Now, as for the accusation of trolling:

Ok, first of all you are acting like a troll now...
quit making a fool out of yourself...
You must be the bottle feeding type..
So don't pull that BS...
when you OBVIOUSLY never read the thread...
I'm calling you out!

very SIMPLE reasons...
You have been warned.

Matt, oh you disappoint me.

Good thing only n00bs can be trolls. ;)

PS - if you wanna get me banned for trolling, feel free; I'm just trying to pick at a fun little challenge (the black blade, not you), if you need a newbie-free environment in which to work you're welcome to it.

[TimeRender]

Ok, let me first apologize for the degeneration of the tone on this thread. The oldtimers here know by now that although I am usually polite, when I have to repeat myself several times I tend to get frustrated, especially when I am met with rudeness and laziness. I am not SOLELY responsible, but I am sorry. (Edit: Not solely responsible for the situation, ABSOLUTELY responsible for my actions.)

I took another look at your diagram. If you had explained it in your post I wouldn't have posted my response. It was not labeled and I had no way to know that you intended for the core to be shaped like a T-bar. That's actually a very clever way to solve the problem. It doesn't solve it entirely, but it comes fairly close. Next time, don't just post a picture, post some explanation of what it represents.

The second post that you quoted just now isn't actually the post I was referring to, but you saw the second one from the other thread so it's all good. You seem to get the point. I disagree with you about the filament analogy because for all intents and purposes the diffuser IS essentially behaving as though it were a light source, but that's a minor point of contention and it's really neither here nor there. You're slightly over analyzing the comparison, but I can tell you understand the basic point.

In the next quote, in which I posted three diagrams, if you read it more closely you will see that I VERY MUCH DID acknowledge the need for a specialized optic, although your T-bar idea reduces the need for such a specialized part. However, and I don't want to beat you over the head with this, but it seems that you are refuting your own point by showing that I did indeed acknowledge the need for a specialized optic. Also, the side emitting optics don't do what you seem to think they do. They bend the light perpendicular to the LED. They DON'T create a doughnut shaped beam, but I can see how the picture may have misled you. However, even if such an optic DOES exist, it doesn't solve the next problem, which you yourself mentioned.

Assuming that you can direct the light up the blade without needing to shine it through the center of the blade (again, your T-bar core helps VERY much with this) you would still need to keep the light dim enough that you still see the core. Now I will admit, as I THINK I have before (don't quote me, I can't remember for certain if I have) that this will produce a blade with a core that is darker than the aura around it. However, that ALONE does not satisfactorily produce the desired effect. The core could be made dim, but not black, and the aura can never be made as bright as what we have seen in the game and on the TV show. Although I cannot say for certain without testing just how bright it would be, I strongly suspect that it would scarcely be any brighter than a dollar store toy saber, and that simply isn't up to the standards of this forum or the replica prop community at large.

Now I maintain that my harsh words before were in response to your attitude, and I still believe that you hadn't actually read those posts until I specifically told you to, but that's no excuse for my response to you, so for that I apologize. What I said to Matt I don't feel was trolling. I have a great deal of respect for Matt and I had rather expected that he would have already read the posts that I was referring to. I meant no insult to him. He is one of this forum's most genuinely nice members. And as for the "warning" that I posted, I was making a threat to show pictures. Really? THAT is troll behavior? That my friend was a joke, plain and simple.

Finally, I am quite flattered that you think I have the clout around here to get you banned for being a troll. I am not a council member. I don't tell them what to do. I don't recall ever having expressed to a council member a desire to have anyone banned, with the exception of a spambot who was on here posting "adult" images. Contrary to your opinions of this forum, I am quite accepting of noobs when they show an effort to learn things on their own, when they ask legitimate questions, and when they are respectful of the other members of the forum. I frequently post answers to questions in an effort to help newer members. It is not my desire to see this become a noob-free zone. Every single member here was at one time new to this hobby, even myself, even the oldtimers, and even Tim. What I don't tolerate is laziness, bottle feeding, bad attitudes, and those who refuse to try to understand the help that is offered to them. I'm sometimes guilty of one of those things myself, and I have certainly made mistakes, which is why I feel that everyone should be given the chance to make amends, but those who make a habit of being a nuisance may not find these forums as welcoming as those who do not.

[Lord Maul]

People, keep this civil or posts will be removed and threads will be locked. No more direct flaming of other members will be tolerated. Remember, this is just a fun hobby for us all. No need to get angry over the topic.

First and only warning ;)

[Jay-gon Jinn]

I think I posted this at FX a while ago, but not here, so I'll do it again:
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o141/Jay-gon_Jinn/000_1598.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o141/Jay-gon_Jinn/000_1599.jpg
See where this was going? A solid rod for inside the clear and white blades.....

Installed the solid rod in the clear blade and turned on the saber:
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o141/Jay-gon_Jinn/000_1600.jpg
Hmm....not impressed....

Installed the rod in the trans-white blade and turned on the saber:
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o141/Jay-gon_Jinn/000_1601.jpg
Yeah.....that doesn't look like a black-core blade to me.....

so using something solid is probably not going to work...and you have to remember, that you're trying to re-create what is essentially a 2-dimensional effect in a 3-dimensional world. If you were able to get the side walls of the blade tube to light up, it would obscure the core anyway, regardless of what color it is.

[TimeRender]

Thanks for the confirmation Jay. Just in case you're interested, Tyhm posted an interesting idea on the other thread. He suggested using a cross beam instead of the opaque inner tube. This should allow for an opaque core without diminishing the light too much. I don't think it will reproduce the effect we are looking for, but as a solution to the first of many problems I thought it was quite clever.

Edit: Sorry, it was this thread. I'm finding it difficult to keep track now that we have two active threads on the topic. I'll assume you already saw it then.

[Jay-gon Jinn]

Thanks for the confirmation Jay. Just in case you're interested, Tyhm posted an interesting idea on the other thread. He suggested using a cross beam instead of the opaque inner tube. This should allow for an opaque core without diminishing the light too much. I don't think it will reproduce the effect we are looking for, but as a solution to the first of many problems I thought it was quite clever.

Edit: Sorry, it was this thread. I'm finding it difficult to keep track now that we have two active threads on the topic. I'll assume you already saw it then.Either way, I still don't think it's ever going to look like the one in the video game or the television show, which is what people seem to want.

[Tyhm]

Firstly, my gratitude to TimeRender for his calm civility and LordMaul for his patience.

Actually that's most of it, haha...

Okay, regarding the T-Bar or Side-Optic; yeah, I know it projects out perpendicular to the LED...I'm wondering, what if we managed to get a reflector (this is entirely hypothetical), and put the whole assembly inside the parabola? Like, take a dollar store flashlight, cut out the giant plastic reflector, and put that around the side-optic so the LED shoots up, the Side-Optic shoots it out the sides, and the reflector bounces it up? Then we'd have a sort of donut shaped projection...
Not worth the bother I know, but an interesting theory.

Jay-Gon, hillarious and true. Yeah, painting the broom handle black is going to be as close to canon as we're gonna get with a solid core, particularly now that I've (finally) seen the video game that started this whole trend (Here I was thinking it had just sprung up as a random idea - all sabers have a bright core, make one with a dark core...) I'm pretty well resigned to the broom theory being bunk - although that does raise an interesting point...edge lit acrylic...I wonder...(see attachment 1)
If we could run the light through the blade skin itself - not emitting from the center and slamming into the edges as it goes, but shooting up fiber optic style...Yeah, it'd be a little brighter than true-black in the middle, but it'd only be really noticeable at the edges...that'd be interesting. I wonder how we could do that...like, a normal wide-lens LED, probably set back a ways so it can hit the base full on...and...? Would we need the hypothetical donut ring LED from part 1? A ring of lesser LEDs? Would we need to etch hair-thin lines along the length of the blade, that are barely visible alone but considerable from the edge?

Ultimately it leaves us with the same problem as the + (or *, etc - Finned, the more fins the less the core narrows when spun) core theory; it'll be DARKer in the middle and BRIGHTer at the edges, but as for Pure Dark and Pure Light, you're SOL. Unless someone knows a film we could put on that boosts contrast into Full Light or No Light At All from all angles...

[TimeRender]

A curved reflector wouldn't work, but one that had a straight bevel would. That should give you a nice doughnut shaped beam. It would need to be VERY close to perfect, and it would need to have the right angle which I believe is 45 degrees. Otherwise that in conjunction with the side-emitting optic would work just fine. That solves the second problem. Do keep in mind though that this only solves it hypothetically. We would still need to buy the parts and make them fit, and every time we make the setup more complicated we will allow more opportunities for things to go wrong, and each additional step will cost us brightness. Still, as a thought experiment I think this has solved the first two problems quite nicely. The third problem, the core being obstructed by the light, is not merely a problem of finding the correct materials/techniques. This problem is insurmountable. We all know why so I won't bother bringing it back up again.

Edit: I forgot to address the edge-lit acrylic. I'm going to try to find a post over on FX that explains why this won't work, but essentially it is because the only edges on a cylinder are the ones at the blade's tip and inside the blade holder.

[thejedilestat]

um... i have not read every page of this thread... but it looks like black paint on the inside of the blade would do the trick to a point.


me thinks black paint and a sanded outside to the blade mite be another way to try this.

if i was home and had a spare blade i would try this myself. at the moment all i have with me is a empty mr blade and no converted lightsaber to test.

[TimeRender]

That solves the problem is a 2-dimensional way, which I maintain is currently the only way it can be solved. However if you are satisfied with solving it 2-dimensionally you would be better served by building a makoto style LED ladder and then cutting something shaped like the core of a blade out of a thin opaque medium. Sheet metal or plastic or even wood would work. Spray paint it black, attach the ladder to the back, and hang your shiny new black bladed saber on your wall. Just don't take it off again, because this is only a 2 dimensional solution and the illusion will be destroyed if you view it any other way.

[Tyhm]

Yeah, Lestat seems to be on the Edgelit Theory...funny, most people wandering into this thread can be categorized pretty easily...but paint would keep all the light trapped inside, it wouldn't light up.

I'm not familiar with this FX abbreviation, though I am familiar with the edgelit problem - this is why I suggested adding hair-thin edges to it. Or as Lestat hinted at, sandblasting it to give the cylinder more edges than just top and bottom...but I haven't played with acrylic, so if it won't work, it won't work.

And as for the core not being visible because the skin of the saber would be glowing too brightly, can we say instead that it only works on very short lightsabers? Within a few inches it's possible to light it and still see the core, Jay even proved it. ;-D

PS - you know what'd be hilarious? We get to the end of this thought experiment and wind up with a viable way of making the damn things - with Tim custom milling a 45' bevel (in the new bladeholder system he was just talking about) for edge-optics and powdercoating 'em the bright chrome to make them reflect, mass producing 'em, we'd be the one source for black lightsabers. Haha...well, it's nice to dream anyway.

I'm vaguely curious what the tech level we'd need to make that work would be - I mean, a few years ago single-LED sabers were a joke, closest things were $5 flashlight toys that telescope out...then we get these super-bright LEDs and suddenly it's possible...now we're talking about the impossibility of black (or at least dark)-core sabers, and the ridiculous power of the modern LED doesn't cut it Yet, but I wonder how far short are we falling? We need LEDs 10x brighter? 5x? 2x?

I don't entertain any particular hopes of it becoming practical in my lifetime. Just idle curiosity.

[TimeRender]

When I said FX I was referring to another lightsaber forum where someone had suggested using that acrylic and it had been explained to him why that wouldn't work. As far as the tech level, that's what I meant when I said the third and final problem isn't one of finding the materials or techniques. There will never be a technology that will change the properties of light to allow it to be simultaneously bright and dim, which means this is where the thought experiment ends. You managed to take the opaque core idea farther than anyone else by suggesting the T-bar, the side emitting optic, and the reflector, but the train stops here.

[ARKM]

Tyhm, I'm not sure why you quoted me and I don't appreciate you bringing me in to this particular heated discussion between you and Timerender. I want no part of it.

My post was polite. I asked "why" because it's hard for me to understand why people would like a black blade with a white glow or understand why people think a black blade can be made to look the way it does in the game, from all angles... which it can't... and the guy over at FX has admitted as such. But then I can't understand why people like country music either so there ya go. ;)

[TimeRender]

Thankfully the heat has mostly cooled and we have found some common ground.

[FenderBender]

Thankfully the heat has mostly cooled and we have found some common ground.

Yeah, I don't like country music either;)

[TimeRender]

HERETIC! SOMEONE FETCH THE FLAMETHROWER!

Nah I'm kidding, I hate country music too. Let's go set fire to some Toby Keith fans.

[Tyhm]

Sorry ARKM; I chose your post at random as a middle-ground example of the sort of post that filled the first 11 pages of this thread. It wasn't meant to single you out, you were just the first one I saw that said what became the prevailing opinion...and everyone else on the forum had to say the exact same thing...for 11 pages...0.o

[ARKM]

Ah. Ok. No worries.

[Onli-Won Kanomi]

As for why someone would want a black blade I can only speak for myself and say that I hope to get a TFU Starkiller saber replica someday and a black blade would be 'authentic' to the final level in the game where he can get a crystal that produces that blade effect.

Thats why *I* would want one...maybe a couple...but for MOST of my sabers I will still want more conventional blades such as TCSS offers...but thats just me and others mileage may vary and thats ok that we can all want different things in a Free country is good eh?

[Shadar Al'Niende]

As for why someone would want a black blade I can only speak for myself and say that I hope to get a TFU Starkiller saber replica someday and a black blade would be 'authentic' to the final level in the game where he can get a crystal that produces that blade effect.

Thats why *I* would want one...maybe a couple...but for MOST of my sabers I will still want more conventional blades such as TCSS offers...but thats just me and others mileage may vary and thats ok that we can all want different things in a Free country is good eh?

i played the wii version of TFU and there was no black crystal blade thingie... ;):cool:

[alreadyRogue]

actually its possible, but it would be extreemly cost ineffective
you would need a polycarbonate tube which would have microcrystals inlayed in it, these microcrystals would only reflect light parallel to the surface of the polycarbonate blade
ok so u have your special polycarbonate tube and you put black construction paper in it in a roll so its got a black core,
its hard to explain but imagine holding your blade up infront of your face, the portion of the tube closest to you would have light reflecting perpendicular to your face, but the portion of the tube on the sides would have light reflecting towards you, so the only light one would see would come from around the black core
the lighting system would need light to be fed directly into the polycarbonate blade instead of the core

u would therefore see a black core surrounded by two strips of light

[TimeRender]

No alreadyrogue. What you are saying is incorrect. It looks correct on your diagram because you only show a handful of the angles that your "microcrystals" are reflecting the light to (btw, what material specifically are you talking about, or are you just making something up?). The truth is that the light would be reflected in a nearly infinite number of angles BETWEEN those angles, and so while you would not be seeing the light that actually shines onto the portion of the blade that you are observing, you will STILL be seeing light at all 360 degrees of the blade.

Edit: Also your idea seems to assume that the light is traveling up the sides of the tube. This is not possible. If the light traveled up the tube, it would be redirected long before it illuminated the entire length of the blade. The light in a blade MUST travel unobstructed through the center at angles that will intersect the blade wall.

[Tyhm]

Unless he means a no-power lightsaber that just uses a specific reflective material. It'd photograph well, at least with flash photography, but there'd be no Off button, as it were.

[Matt Thorn]

Well, we finally have a video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPqGZHLIeuI

It looks great...when it's turned off. :rolleyes: Seriously, I don't know if he put a huge amount of polypropylene film in it, but it's extremely silver.

Turned on, it is basically what I was afraid it would be. Basically two strips of something blocking part of the light, so that at certain angles you get the black core and glowing edges, while at other angles you get a glowing core with black edges. He said the inside is "painted," and that it was really hard to do. I can only imagine he meant he painted the film and then put it in.

If Senti had just posted this flat, with no build-up, I would have thought, "Hey, that's kind of cool. Why not?" But with the long build-up, the talk about selling them, etc., this is frankly disappointing. It is, basically, the equivalent of the "X-ray glasses" they used to sell in the back of comics. :???:

I give it two stars out of five. :-|

[Lord Maul]

Yep, it's exactly how most of us thought he was doing it. Just painting/taping/darkening the diffuser on two sides. It looks good only from two very specific angles, which isn't good enough for me to buy one.

[Matt Thorn]

Yep, it's exactly how most of us thought he was doing it. Just painting/taping/darkening the diffuser on two sides. It looks good only from two very specific angles, which isn't good enough for me to buy one.
Senti describes himself as a "n00b." If that's true, it was either naive or arrogant of him to claim to have come up with a revolutionary technique, and even expect people to line up to pay money for it. Naturally, there have been the predictable "Awesome, dude!" responses (from the kind of people who still can't figure out how that "Got your nose!" trick works :cool:), but I wonder how many people will actually pay money for it. If it's as labor-intensive as he suggests (and it does indeed sound like a lot of hard work for an extremely mediocre result), his blades should be pretty expensive.

As most of us predicted: Much ado about nothing. :rolleyes:

Me, I'll just wait for "Lumisty (http://www.glassfilmenterprises.com/lumisty.htm)™ Black". ;)

[Shadar Al'Niende]

Booo... all of what i said i stand by, i figured it would be something like this which is simply an illusion not something that "solves a long standing problem" as some so enthusiastically stated...

[Obi-Dar Ke-Gnomie]

Naturally, there have been the predictable "Awesome, dude!" responses (from the kind of people who still can't figure out how that "Got your nose!" trick works :cool:)

ROFL! You get the post of the week award!

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought it would be.

Whole lotta nuthin'.

[Matt Thorn]

ROFL! You get the post of the week award!
I'm overwhelmed. I'd like to thank all the little people, but mostly my older brother for showing me how the "Got your nose!" trick works when I was four years old.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought it would be.

Whole lotta nuthin'.
Which makes the enthusiastic response all the more surreal. Are those all honest reactions? Are some of them simply being kind? Or is everyone else (myself included) afraid to be the first one to say, "The king is buck naked, and this is a cheap gimmick"? I suppose it's more likely a case of everyone following the tried and true "If-you-can't-think-of-anything-nice-to-say-don't-say-anything-at-all" rule. :roll: I know it's a good rule, and it's one I try to follow, but when it's a matter of money passing hands, it seems to me that an honest assessment is warranted. Then again, the video is there for all to see, so no one can accuse Senti of trying to deceive anyone (and I honestly believe he's happy with the results of his labors), and anyone who pays for one can't complain that they were duped.

To each his own.

[Shadar Al'Niende]

Haha, i just saw this, AFTER posting on FX and reading yours Matt... Great minds... ;)

[Sunrider]

Bwwwaaaa..... I had to go back a second time and watch the video after I saw a bunch of post praising the amazing achievement. Wha! Like painted strips on the inside of the blade is much different than the electrical tape.:confused: Waves hand; you love the black saber blade and are amazed by it's ingenuity. :lol:

[Matt Thorn]

Bwwwaaaa..... I had to go back a second time and watch the video after I saw a bunch of post praising the amazing achievement. Wha! Like painted strips on the inside of the blade is much different than the electrical tape.:confused: Waves hand; you love the black saber blade and are amazed by it's ingenuity. :lol:
What, you think you're some kind of Jedi, waving your hand like that?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/45/Watto.jpg

[JamoUp]

I'm just..disappointed at the "AMAZING!!!" reception this is getting by some people whose opinions I really respect. I suppose that is why there is chocolate and vanilla. I'm just shocked, I never would have expected the warm reception the video is producing. I, personally, think it is kind of silly. Only works from one angle. It is cool from that one angle, and props for making it. But, revolutionary? A step forward in the hobby? Not at this point, not for me.

[Rhyen Skytracker]

I still like the black polyC blade with out a diffuser. If you can get just the right amount of dust particles inside the blade it give it a really cool effect. It looks more of what a black blade should look like. When looking at the blade in a verticle position all you can really see is the tint of the black blade and the light reflecting off of the dust particles inside, but when you tilt it down you can see the white light. It looks really cool but is not really something you can capture with pictures.

[psab keel]

Interesting effect. Although to sell them doesn't seem worth it to me. Seems like it's a very labor intensive process. Plus if the film shifts inside the tube, the effect is ruined because the lines will no longer be straight, giving a swirling effect. If I were Senti I wouldn't sell completed blades, but make a tutorial on how sabersmiths could make their own. Given that this is a prototype, there may be improvements along the way, but I doubt that there is really enough demand for a blade of this style to really warrant extreme development.

[Crystal Chambers]

I agree about black poly-c, kinda of neat and much better then stripes.

Nice to see him try but not a successful attempt by any means IMO.

Why does it seem like you can't give honest and respectfully criticism on FX. Mostly praise all over there and I don't think it does anyone any good. I think you're being a bit harsh Matt but still funny...lol. I don't get the impression he's trying to fool anyone. My original post saying this has got to be a hoax was more about seeing how long he could string everyone along on something that doesn't really work.

With all the developments in sabers, I'm surpised to hear so many people say CAN'T. Kind of reminds me of when people thought the world was flat. Maybe there's way to do black blades, atleast better then we currently think, but obviously Senti has to really step it up to make any viable progress.

For instance is it possible that there's a film that does the opposite of corbin film.....I know you guys all racked your brains on this before but maybe there's still some way...maybe a new film or LED lightspectrum combo that will come out next year...who knows.

[Sunrider]

I don't get the impression he's trying to fool anyone.

Maybe not intentionally, but I must say that throughout the entire thread there is an unbelievable amount of hype for a couple stripes inside a tube. This doesn't seem difficult or require R&D. Just mask a diffuser tube, paint it, put it in a blade. :rolleyes:

[cardcollector]

alright, I've been trying not to comment on this...

but why not just use two more strips of paint almost like a plus sign, each directly opposite of each other?

Would that give the same impression he is trying to get from all sides?

[Sunrider]

I think we just got bashed over here.


You are welcome to your opinions, but if you don't like it and find it a gimmick or stupid, please don't post here.

You see why I don't post anything over at TCSS? Roll Eyes If you're idea or design doesn't meet their fancy, they feed you to the rancors. Tongue


Funny how the only two negative posts were both active members at TCSS.... Roll Eyes

Guys, the fact is, it's an optical illusion, yes. What is your definition of a "true black core blade"? One that has a black core and even light on both sides? Senti's has that. One that uses something more "impressive"? So? A slingshot will still throw an object despite its simple construction.

No offense, but get over yourselves. He did it, you didn't. Suck it up and take it like mature adults Wink.


WoW I didn't realize constructive comments were so unwelcome at FX. I guess I'll watch what I say.

As for myself I don't want anyone sugar coating their responses toward me. If you think I portrayed something improperly or have an idea on how to do something better. Please say so.

This is how we grow.

[Lord Maul]

No, because then when looking at it from the 'right' angle, there would be a black core, two strips of blue, and then two more strips of black from the new black stripes. Also, it'd look even weirder than it already does looking at it 'diagonally', as you'd have a super thin strip of blue with black on either side.

[cardcollector]

Ah, OK LM. Just a brainstorming thought...

Back to the TCSS black blade.:cool:


I think we just got bashed over here.

As for myself I don't want anyone sugar coating their responses toward me. If you think I portrayed something improperly or have an idea on how to do something better. Please say so.

This is how we grow.

Wow, I don't know what else to say. If someone has a constructive criticism comment for me I love to hear it.
Each to his own... :rolleyes:

[Rhyen Skytracker]

Same here. It is from constructive criticism that we learn to do things better. In J-Lo's case, we learn to spell more better. LOL

[cardcollector]

we learn to spell more better. LOL

Ack- even I flinched on that one!:lol:

[Jedi-Loreen]

I guess I'm not rubbing off on Rhyen. :p

[morpheus1977]

I am pretty sure he did that on purpose. (sp?)

[Jedi-Loreen]

I know.



And I was joking about it. ;)

[Rhyen Skytracker]

Yes, I was joking. J-Lo has helped me with my spelling, now I guess I need help with my grammer. LOL

[Malaki Skywalker]

It looks as though this blade is causing a lot of trouble, eh? :? I personally like the idea, perfect for those of us who likes a good photo shoot without having to Photoshop it.

I personally take it for what it is, a Tube with Black strips of paint in it, and say Bravo. Its all we have for now, and personally, I think were better off having A Method for this illusion, then being with out one, surely thats a step forward?

It just goes to prove thats theirs a Cheap, Cost effective yet Labor-Bearing way of getting some form of results (Even a "Gimmick") with the Impossible task of making a fully functional Black blade, without paint, film strips, reflective films, etc... we all know its not going to happen just like that, it takes more then 1 attempt.

[Onli-Won Kanomi]

Yes its only an "illusion" not a 'real' black blade...did anyone seriously expect Senti actually repealed the laws of physics? The only way I can think of to make a 'real' black blade would require multiple spinning tubes and be neither cost effective nor duelable and that too would require the visual-perceptual phenomenon of 'persistence of vision' to create "illusion" of black 'all around' the blade. At least Senti found a way to make HIS "illusion" practically attainable and for that he should be commended and if it doesnt produce the effect from every angle then it is still the first approach that has produced a black blade from any angle afaik so its the "first evolutionary step" as Master Jedye said on FX. Maybe "Lumisty" will be another step forward in the future, who knows...but this is a beginning. "Do or do not, there is no try" eh? Senti actually DID something...good for him. I don't think he made any claims that were dishonest...maybe some of the rest of us were more hopeful it might be more and may have been more vociferously enthusiastic or some may have been more vociferously critical but thats ok, in the end it is what it is and we'll all make our own choices and move forward. I personally am hoping that Korbanth does a Starkiller hilt in his next run and if he does I WOULD want one of these blades for DISPLAY purposes with that...I wouldnt duel with that hilt anyway. For a dueling hilt I think the 'black' smoked TCSS blade material is awesome despite it not looking exactly like TFU and particular awesome in Rhyen's [iirc?] "Deathblade" form with a red LED...if I was building a 'black blade' dueling hilt that would be what I'd want and is why I bought black bladestock from TCSS when Strydur brought it out and it is a cool option too imo...but to each his/her own eh? We are all fans who enjoy sabers and surely there is room for us to have personal preferences and get along...Vive les differences eh?

[Sunrider]

Hmmm the blades are supposed to be duel able so I wonder what kind of flexible paint he is using. He probably can't fully disclose that information at this time tho. ;)

[Matt Thorn]

Onli-Wan, I am in complete agreement that Senti was not misleading--at least not intentionally. And, as I said earlier, the video is there, it clearly shows what he's done, so if there are people who are happy with that, that is cool. Vive les differences indeed.

As for the laws of physics, there has been a very interesting discussion about the possibilities for dark-core blades here (http://forums.thecustomsabershop.com/showthread.php?t=10928).

I got to thinking why the reaction to Senti's blade was so different here and on fx-sabers. I don't think it's a territorial "My-Team-Is-Better-Than-Your-Team" kind of thing. And I don't believe we are "mean" over here. But there is one fundamental difference between fx-sabers and TCSS forums, and that is that fx-sabers is a general site for collectors, admirers, and builders of "functioning" lightsaber replicas, whereas TCSS is, at its core, a "How-To" site. Except for the "Miscellaneous" section, I think 80% of discussion here is detailed technical discussion about how to make something work, and how to make it work better. Constructive criticism is not only acceptable, but essential. Some of us are more blunt than others, and feathers can get ruffled and discussions heated, but flame wars are extremely rare, and for the most part things are quite civil and friendly. But when one of us goes to fx-sabers and offers the kind of technical criticism that is considered normal here on TCSS, it can be seen as mean-spirited, or, worse, some kind of TCSS vs. fx-sabers thing (which is silly, since most TCSS members are also fx-sabers members).

Fortunately, Luminara deemed our criticism to be civil and constructive, but maybe we (or maybe I should say "I") should be more sensitive to these "cultural differences" when we post on fx-sabers.

[Rhyen Skytracker]

I think you hit the nail right on the head about the differences between the forums Matt. Like you said, this is a DIY forum on how to build lightsabers yourself and to most of us we want criticism to better our future sabers. I do want to give Senti credit for being a n00b and jumping right in and figuring out how to do something for himself. I also believe he never intended to be misleading in anyway, he was and still is very excited about this hobby and I think we need to give him and all the n00bs constructive criticism but still urge them to keep trying and learning more. (Sometimes that is a very fine line.) I don't think any of your post over at FX was to harsh for me but some others may have.

I do want each and everyone of you to tell me that all my sabers are the best sabers in the world and there is nothing I could do to improve them. hehe

Just kidding, I want all of y'all to be perfectly honest with all my work so that I CAN improve my future sabers. I have already seen a huge improvement in my work and it is due to all of y'all giving me advice and constructive criticism.

[Onli-Won Kanomi]

I think you make a valid point and its something I try to remember when switching between posting here and there...this is essentially a DIY forum in support of a DIY saber BUILDING parts store and anyone who comes here and understands that should realize people here are trying to advance the art of HOW to BUILD sabers. FX-Sabers has a different and in a way 'larger' focus on ALL aspects of the 'saber hobby' including those aspects related to BUY/SELL and USING sabers that have nothing to do with building sabers DIY, and many members there can be perfectly good contributing members who have NO interest in ever building a saber themselves just buying or having sabers built for them by the many fine sabersmiths in the FX-Sabers areas devoted to that. There's nothing 'wrong' with that its just a difference but I suppose talk of 'selling' parts that would seem perfectly in keeping with the buy/sell aspects of FX Sabers forums might sometimes seem out of keeping with the more specifically DIY 'spirit' of TCSS forums. Perhaps someone more focused on the DIY aspect of the hobby here might feel that talk of selling parts rather than freely disclosing how we might DIY it for ourselves is not exactly the 'spirit' of TCSS forums?

IF so I don't think anyone 'there' intends to 'offend' anyone 'here' that way...its just a difference in approach between the respective forum sites both of which are highly valued by many of us who are members in both places. I don't think anyone involved there or here is saying anything out of 'bad faith' its just different mindsets due to different aspects of our common hobby of enjoying sabers in sometimes different ways.

*insert usual "certain point of view" quote*

[Sunrider]

Yes Matt you are right here. I didn't realize it until today but the forums are defiantly different. Not that one is better than the other. I do like how we discuss ideas here. Lets give thanks to Tim for the store & forum & ability to jump into such an interesting hobby. :)

[Matt Thorn]

Perhaps someone more focused on the DIY aspect of the hobby here might feel that talk of selling parts rather than freely disclosing how we might DIY it for ourselves is not exactly the 'spirit' of TCSS forums?

IF so I don't think anyone 'there' intends to 'offend' anyone 'here' that way...its just a difference in approach between the respective forum sites both of which are highly valued by many of us who are members in both places.
Good point! I had been wondering about the reaction at fx-sabers, but I was taking the reaction here at TCSS for granted. I don't think Senti's thread would have gotten any (negative) attention here if it wasn't for the fact that he was talking about selling the blades. No doubt about it: we here at TCSS are extremely sensitive to any discussion of buying or selling. That makes perfect sense here on TCSS, but it would be silly to try to impose that standard on fx-sabers, where buying and selling is part and parcel of the whole forum.

Just goes to show: We're never as objective as we think we are. :-|

[Rhyen Skytracker]

First of all, I know the images are larger than normal, but they really need to be to see the effect and the pictures still don't do it justice. Here is kinda what I was talking about with the black polyC blade. I am using a Red LED because it was what I had on hand and it looks really cool with red. hehe You can see the dust particles reflect the light and give it a cool effect. When I tilt the saber directly in front of me you can see the mirror tip reflects the light directly back to the LED and makes it look more like a normal blade, but when it is upright it gives the effect of plasma like energy floating in the blade. It looks much better in person and is super simple to make. (Just buy the black polyC blade and tip from Tim) hehe This has no diffusion in it at all.

http://i416.photobucket.com/albums/pp242/wadeh13/WIP/Dark%20light%20saber/100_3063.jpg
http://i416.photobucket.com/albums/pp242/wadeh13/WIP/Dark%20light%20saber/100_3063.jpg

http://i416.photobucket.com/albums/pp242/wadeh13/WIP/Dark%20light%20saber/100_3064.jpg
http://i416.photobucket.com/albums/pp242/wadeh13/WIP/Dark%20light%20saber/100_3064.jpg

http://i416.photobucket.com/albums/pp242/wadeh13/WIP/Dark%20light%20saber/100_3065.jpg
http://i416.photobucket.com/albums/pp242/wadeh13/WIP/Dark%20light%20saber/100_3065.jpg

[Sunrider]

I don't think Senti's thread would have gotten any (negative) attention here if it wasn't for the fact that he was talking about selling the blades. No doubt about it: we here at TCSS are extremely sensitive to any discussion of buying or selling.

I must confess this is the main reason of my critiques. I do sometimes forget that some people can get over excited about a idea that makes no sense to me and just want have someone create something for them rather than create it themselves. I must meditate on this.

[Onli-Won Kanomi]

Cool effect...I wonder if it would work with glitter instead of dust?

[Rhyen Skytracker]

It may but it is easier to get the dust to stick inside the blade. It just happens naturally. lol I call the black blade with red LED the "Death Blade" because it looks very sithy.

[Onli-Won Kanomi]

Indeed it does and imo is Sithier [JLo's gonna get me for that] than a black blade anyway.

[Jasher Kain]

I got to thinking why the reaction to Senti's blade was so different here and on fx-sabers. I don't think it's a territorial "My-Team-Is-Better-Than-Your-Team" kind of thing. And I don't believe we are "mean" over here. But there is one fundamental difference between fx-sabers and TCSS forums, and that is that fx-sabers is a general site for collectors, admirers, and builders of "functioning" lightsaber replicas, whereas TCSS is, at its core, a "How-To" site. Except for the "Miscellaneous" section, I think 80% of discussion here is detailed technical discussion about how to make something work, and how to make it work better. Constructive criticism is not only acceptable, but essential. Some of us are more blunt than others, and feathers can get ruffled and discussions heated, but flame wars are extremely rare, and for the most part things are quite civil and friendly. But when one of us goes to fx-sabers and offers the kind of technical criticism that is considered normal here on TCSS, it can be seen as mean-spirited, or, worse, some kind of TCSS vs. fx-sabers thing (which is silly, since most TCSS members are also fx-sabers members).
QFT.

I want to apologize to anyone here on TCSS who may have been offended by the comment I made over at FX. I was completely tongue-in-cheek with my comment, but I think some people took my words out of context and some feathers were ruffled.

All I was trying to say is what Matt just said so perfectly. I love TCSS for the no-nonsense "this is how you do it better" attitude. That's how good teachers are: they challenge you to improve yourself. But the group over at FX is not as hardcore techie as here...and so we should be more conservative (and careful) when critiquing. Many (FX members) post simply because they are proud that they accomplished something rudimentary...because they never did anything like that before. Here, you've all been rolling blade film since you could walk.:razz:

Again, I hope I did not offend and apologize for any misunderstandings that may have arisen.

[Crystal Chambers]

Regardless of the purpose of either site, I can't understand for the life of me why it's either like it, love it,or say nothing at FX. Even if it is an item for sale it's not like it's out right saying don't buy this if you comment that you wouldn't or that you think it could be better if done differently.

Due to this any comments I get over there carry no weight. It feels like if someone compliments me they may only be doing it so I'll return the favour and I'm way too real to conduct myself like that. I will of course continue to share my work there anyways.

As an artist I learned long ago how to serve a constructive criticism and also take one. As long as you share your work it's open to criticism and I'd rather hear it to better myself or at least to get other perspectives instead of wonder what others would say.


Back on topic...when someone finds a film that acts as the opposite of corbin film then it's on. Until then it's back to the drawing board.

[cardcollector]

It may but it is easier to get the dust to stick inside the blade. It just happens naturally. lol I call the black blade with red LED the "Death Blade" because it looks very sithy.

What would happen if you lightly sanded it I wonder...

[yell0w_lantern]

Wondering that myself. I just ordered one last night so I may give it a try.

[Jasher Kain]

Regardless of the purpose of either site, I can't understand for the life of me why it's either like it, love it,or say nothing at FX.

For three reasons:
1. The Administrator's vision. There used to be some MODS that railed into people. Harsh criticism scares people away. Most people at FX are interested in sharing, not being dissected or crucified. The Administrator removed those MODS from their places and changed the atmosphere of the Forum to make it more "family friendly."
2. To avoid flame wars. Flame wars also scare people away...and one harsh or misinterpreted comment is all it takes. A lot of people on the Internet say what they want without thinking because they can't see the other person. The impersonal nature of the Internet makes some people, well...impersonal.
3. What the site is for. FX is for sharing. It started out with major collectors sharing their personal reviews of the Master Replicas FX lightsabers. From there, it has expanded to customized stuff and everything else the hobby entails. However, most people at FX are satisfied being collectors and not builders. We're generally not interested in who won first or second place in a building contest, or whose saber involved more technical planning and "cram-fu." We're more interested in if it's aesthetically pleasing and if it's something we'd like to have sitting on our shelf at home. :cool:

As for posting comments, I only post if I like something. I never post just because I want someone to comment on my stuff. That's shallow. Maybe some people do (usually n00bs), but with the number of sabers that pop up over there every day...they get tired real quick. If someone doesn't post anything about your saber, take that as criticism. Silence = Disapproval or Dislike ;)
[/threadjack]

I think a smoke or translucent black plastic could be used--like the white plastic inside MR blades--to give a nice black core effect.

[Crystal Chambers]

While trying to have a better understanding of all this its too bad this has somehow become such a big deal and is getting in the way of the topic. I would love to discuss this further but I think it is ruining the thread for those who want to skip all this and stay on the topic.

The problem with any black core is the core will not be visible because the diffused blade material or film will be so bright you won't see the black core behind it. Just like you can't see dark room on the other side of a hollow/clear illuminated blade. I'm sure this has been mentioned over and over and I haven't even read all of these posts. If this comment was deemed negative because I'm not supporting your idea and I felt I shouldn't post it then a bunch of people may get too excited and be very disappointed when it didn't work.

Sunrider posted an interesting find regarding a film type that to me sounds like it might have some potential.

[Sunrider]

Most people at FX are interested in sharing, not being dissected or crucified.

No offense Jasher but I find it sad that this attitude exists. I think there is just as much sharing happening here even if it may be more technical in nature. And I don't see people being crucified here. Noobs may get told to try the search function but simple questions are politely answered constantly.

If people are willing to jump out on the internet into a forum they should be able to take some polite constructive advice.

Niche; "That which does not kill us makes us stronger."

[Obi-Ben]

When I first read there was a "black blade" discussion, the first thing I thought of was that someone made a blacklight or UV lightsaber. Hasn't someone done that? I see some old threads that touched on it, but no one seemed to talk of spectacular results, which is kind of disappointing.

Rhyen, I like that effect. Rather than an blade of pure energy, it looks like red hot metal.




A hint for you guys who are confused why some people are offended by critical responses: don't use the word "noob". Ever. It's insulting and condescending. I know people rarely directly use that word when addressing posters, but even in casual use, it's often seen as unfriendly. I think it's the N-word of the internet. Please, wipe it from your vocabulary.

[Tyhm]

When I first read there was a "black blade" discussion, the first thing I thought of was that someone made a blacklight or UV lightsaber. Hasn't someone done that? I see some old threads that touched on it, but no one seemed to talk of spectacular results, which is kind of disappointing.

Rhyen, I like that effect. Rather than an blade of pure energy, it looks like red hot metal.




A hint for you guys who are confused why some people are offended by critical responses: don't use the word "noob". Ever. It's insulting and condescending. I know people rarely directly use that word when addressing posters, but even in casual use, it's often seen as unfriendly. I think it's the N-word of the internet. Please, wipe it from your vocabulary.

They don't make UV LEDs, apparently. Thus the dead end there.

For a real Black Lightsaber, I have a hunch it's going to have to play on the walls being thickest at the edges, and some way of sharpening the contrast between straight-on light and edge-on light. It might be a LED String for all I know.

As a recently (probably rightly) hazed n00b, I get their frustration; this site doesn't present itself as, but Is, the OCC of lightsaber building. This is where the elites circulate. This is the VIP room of the chopper convention. This is not the place to ask "So the chain goes to the back wheel, right?" This is where people are making TRON Lightcycles to well earned accolades, not where they find cheap and ingenious ways to patch up old Yamaha scooters. You can fight it and you can get angry about it, but the attitude prevails that when a newbie wanders in and asks a stupid question, they're trespassing. And we kinda are. But Tim put up a public link to the forum with the suggestion "If you're overwhelmed you can get help here", so in another sense this isn't the VIP room, this is the ticket counter outside, (to stretch the metaphor to breaking).

But it's all getting a bit Off Topic. Back to the video - what the heck, "You won't be able to tell when you're really swinging and twirling it"? Maybe in the sense that "If it's a moving blur you can't tell it's not black in the middle"...

[TimeRender]

They do make UV leds, and a cylinder doesn't have an edge to be thickest at.

I've been moving this week and only just saw that there was finally an end to this story. I really have nothing to add except that I am disappointed that even now he is getting compliments for experimenting, doing something "impossible", and creating an original idea. This had been done before, and was talked about here on this forum at least as far back as October '09. NOBODY ever said that THIS idea was impossible, only that this idea didn't adequately create the effect. All he did was build someone else's idea, or he failed to do enough research to realize that what he was doing had been done before. I don't have a problem with those forum members who genuinely think that his result is attractive because we all have different tastes, but to praise him for anything else is just plain wrong.

[Tyhm]

They do make UV leds, and a cylinder doesn't have an edge to be thickest at.

I've been moving this week and only just saw that there was finally an end to this story. I really have nothing to add except that I am disappointed that even now he is getting compliments for experimenting, doing something "impossible", and creating an original idea. This had been done before, and was talked about here on this forum at least as far back as October '09. NOBODY ever said that THIS idea was impossible, only that this idea didn't adequately create the effect. All he did was build someone else's idea, or he failed to do enough research to realize that what he was doing had been done before. I don't have a problem with those forum members who genuinely think that his result is attractive because we all have different tastes, but to praise him for anything else is just plain wrong.

You know what I mean: I can't post the illustration anymore, but if you view a cylinder with thickness x at the middle, your line of site passes through 2x of material; if you view it at the edge, it passes through considerably more, peaking at the point that the "line" passes through edge without hitting the hollow core at all, and diminishing to the very edge of the blade. I know it doesn't work yet, I'm conjecturing on hypothetical future technologies; if they come out with a contrast-film that cuts out everything below a certain brightness threshold, I imagine it will just be a race to Dim the core below that threshold - at which point "Why blades are always brightest in the middle and dimmer at the edges", and how to invert this property, becomes paramount.

[Matt Thorn]

I seem to remember Fender Bender talking about UV LEDs. Bottom line, if I recall, is that they are both dangerous and don't really create any interesting effect.

<soapbox>
I think the TCSS forums are arranged pretty nicely. If you use common sense and scan the index page from the top to the bottom, it is extremely easy to find out where to start as an intelligent newcomer to the hobby. The problems arise when we have newcomers who don't take that most basic first step, and instead post a "Which end of the battery is positive?" kind of question in entirely the wrong section or thread. Being a newcomer is not an excuse for being, well, stupid. I can think of any number of recent newcomers who settled in quite smoothly, not because they already had all the answers, but because they took the time to learn how to find the answers, and how and where to ask questions when they couldn't find the answers on their own. It seems to me that this kind of common sense applies almost anywhere (even in the Real World), and yet, particularly on the 'Net, it is woefully lacking.

When in doubt, fall back on the Golden Rule of Thumb: Good manners and common courtesy will get you through just about any situation. ;)
</soapbox>

[Skottsaber]

I can think of any number of recent newcomers who settled in quite smoothly, not because they already had all the answers, but because they took the time to learn how to find the answers, and how and where to ask questions when they couldn't find the answers on their own.
*ahem*
:D

[cardcollector]

Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back there Skott.;)

[Nomos]

Regarding the painted blade, it's pretty obvious from the video and from several posters' words that this effect only works reliably in 2D. When put into motion, the black blocks aren't in the correct postion to be seen at all angles. If you are going to do this effect for a display piece, why not use a polygonal clear insert in the blade? Say you make it hexagonal...you could alternate surfaces from clear to opaque, or whatever choices of colors you want. Say you want a purple blade with a blue aura...paint them alternating blue and purple. When displaying, you just ensure that the view is perpendicular to the purple face. Again, this idea should only be taken into consideration for a 2-dimensional approach.