Mastery

[Onli-Won Kanomi]

What is it with all the younglings/teenyboppers calling themselves "MASTER such-and-such" in recent months?

Whats so wrong with being a Padawan...I'm no noob and I still consider myself a Padawan until I will [someday] EARN being a Master...and I'm 45 years old.

Just my $0.02

[Tradeliphine]

same with darth and jedi, but yea, i hear ya... I can understand where some of them feel so enthusiastic about it that they "get into character", but I think it boils down to respect and honor, lots of us old farts have it, those of us who were raised well have it, but there are always some people who dont care, dont know better, or dont take the time.

[Nightwing]

Pretty sure it's a character thing.

Unless you mean the user titles; I got mine because I've been here since 05 and have racked up a bunch of posts. :P

[Jedi-Loreen]

No, it's a user name thing.

I don't care if it's a "getting into character" thing or not, nobody should call themselves a Master or Lord if they haven't earned it, IMO. :rolleyes: That's not how it worked in the Star Wars universe. You were given the title after you earned it.

I've been building light up sabers (started with EL) since before this great forum existed, so I think I've earned the title "Jedi". But I am not a Master yet.

[eastern57]

Ooh, can I play? What about me? Am I a master? Jedi? ... or still a padawan? ;)

[Thaxos]

I don't see what the big deal, so they put 6 extra letters in their username. I'm pretty sure everyone on here can distinguish who has the knowledge and experience and who doesn't.

[Rhyen Skytracker]

I have made quite a few sabers and I don't consider myself nowhere close to a master. There are several people on here that do deserve that honor and by n00bs calling themselves Master, I think it kinda belittles them.

[acerocket]

I wanted to use megasupremebetterthanyodaandmacewinducombinedmaxib igwiththefocejedimasterdarthacerocket but it was too big so I just shortened it to acerocket.

[Kal El Rah]

LOL, that's a good 1.

Anyway, I am happy with my progress through the system to become whatever I become.

[Lord Maul]

I wanted to use megasupremebetterthanyodaandmacewinducombinedmaxib igwiththefocejedimasterdarthacerocket but it was too big so I just shortened it to acerocket.

I laugh every time I see that in your sig at JSSDC :p

[Zook]

I don't know. I don't want to ruffle feathers but I think some of you are taking a message board a little to serious.

Its just a screen name and not real life or anything so I really don't see the big deal if someone wants to make believe they are a master or jedi.

I guess I just don't understand because I don't take message boards so seriously.

I enjoy the info I get from them (boards) but could care less what name a user uses.

Look I understand someone saying they are a master sabersmith or something when they have only made a couple of sabers and that being wrong etc. but a screen name...come on.

Then again I never call myself a master of anything. I am one of those that is good (sometimes only decent) at everything but great at nothing :D.

[JamoUp]

I feel like this is all ego. On both sides. People call themselves "master" because they want to feel cool (weather in character or in RL). People get ticked off about "n00bs" calling themselves "master" because they feel that new person hasn't earned it yet. (like how dare they presume themself a master when I'm not even a master) All ego.

Oh, and don't try to argue with me... I'm a Master debater ;)

[Jedi-Loreen]

Heh. :lol:


Maybe I do take it too seriously. I guess I've been playing a Jedi in the Rebel Legion for too long. :p

[Rhyen Skytracker]

I guess I get carried away too. Being a sith or Jedi doesn't bother me at all. I just think you need to work up to master, like in the movies. I know, this is the real world and Star Wars is not rea........sorry, I just can't finish that statement. LOL

[acerocket]

It has nothing to do with ego. We are all Star Wars fans here (if we weren't we wouldn't be posting on a forum dedicated to building lightsabers) and it is only natural for some to get sucked into the world of SW and want to choose user names that are SW appropriate. But after several years here, you tend to get a little jaded seeing a plethora of Darth XXX and Jedi Master ZZZ asking questions like "what is a blade holder for?" or "why do I need a heatsink?" Obviously there is nothing I can do about the names people choose (nor do I want to tell anyone they can't call themselves Darth or Master), but don't expect the old guard to treat you like a Darth or Master if you ask Jar Jar questions.

[eastern57]

... don't expect the old guard to treat you like a Darth or Master if you ask Jar Jar questions...

That is 360 degrees of win! :D ;)

[Jedi-Loreen]

That end of your last sentence was great, Ace! http://judgesabersmith.com/Smileys/default/011.gif

[Zook]

It has nothing to do with ego. We are all Star Wars fans here (if we weren't we wouldn't be posting on a forum dedicated to building lightsabers) and it is only natural for some to get sucked into the world of SW and want to choose user names that are SW appropriate. But after several years here, you tend to get a little jaded seeing a plethora of Darth XXX and Jedi Master ZZZ asking questions like "what is a blade holder for?" or "why do I need a heatsink?" Obviously there is nothing I can do about the names people choose (nor do I want to tell anyone they can't call themselves Darth or Master), but don't expect the old guard to treat you like a Darth or Master if you ask Jar Jar questions.


Yeah I guess I didn't think of it that way. I am a new comer to saber building and to be honest I will probably not be doing it for much longer. I have a tendency to pick up new hobbies enjoy them for a while and then move on to other things. That's one of the drawbacks to wanting to learn about as many things as possible. I have picked up way more hobbies than one person should only to get bored with it and move on.

I am a veteran member on other boards and I do get frustrated when the noobs come on asking the same question over and over and not wanting to do any research at all etc. I just never really get or have gotten wrapped up in a user name but reading your response I can see why some do and I might too if I am still a member as long as some of you have been.

I guess I just don't really get wrapped up in the SW world. I just enjoy making electronic toys that are pretty neat and my kids and I can play with.

I guess the best way to relate to it for me is with Alabama football. I am passionate about it and know all the details about it (players, coaches, recruiting etc) and get mad at those "bandwagon" fans that generally don't know what they are talking about.

Most of you are passionate about SW and I am a "bandwagon" fan. I watched the movies several times and enjoyed them but couldn't tell you all the specifics of all the little things (like minor role names etc). Heck I have learned a lot from just reading about different sabers that I totally missed from watching the films. I have never been nor will I probably ever go to a SW convention...thats fine though I have my passions and do those type of things for them. I guess the point is when you are passionate about something I see where something like a name can bother you.

Heck my user name on most boards is awsm66 (my car tag from my Chevelle) but I chose zook for this board after my cat of 18 years (whose name was zookie) had to be put to sleep and I wanted to be different for once (though I am just Michael on my Bama board since I was a member for so long and got to change it to just my name)...so that shows how much thought I put into my user names :).

I do apologize if I offended anyone with my last response...just my lack of understanding.

[JediMasterDak]

Well I guess I'm not a Master........ Yet

[Jagahati]

Does it really matter what people call themselves?

Isn't it the respect and knowledge gained from extended dedication to a hobby or cause that is more important than flaunting a title and calling people derogatory names?

Perhaps we are talking about a different type of "Mastery" than I was aware of.

To creatively Mad-lib Shakespeare:

"What's in a name? That which we call a n00b by any other name would surely ask the same stupid questions."

Those who truly are the "Masters" of the community certainly don't need anyone to tell them that. They know that they are important, they know that they have most of the answers and they know they are respected by those of us capable of showing respect.

If you need everyone to call you "Master" so that you can flaunt your E-peen and get your E-rox-off, then you probably do not deserve the title.

That's my take on it anyway.

[Jedi coral]

Jedi or sith I can understand. it is not so much as a title but an indication of a following. But master? Yeah I can understand that. But I have to agree with some of the other members with regard to ego... not that I would define it as ego but more intolerance. I am a n00b but I am by no means a simpleton and people seem to instantly take me for kid or dumber than a bag of hammers if I ask a question that I can’t fine an answer to.

Some things to keep in mind before you flame someone...or me for that matter.

I am a father of two and I am 26 not 14. As anyone else could also be a parent. What does a being a parent have to do with I. We don’t like being ridiculed or put down because we as respectable parents would not want that for our own children so we often frown upon it.

I have been making props for around 7 years now and am by no means incapable of doing this sort of thing.

I can read although I do make the odd spelling mistake so my ability to find something really isn't that questionable.

But with all that being said I haven’t asked that many questions nor have I asked any real stupid questions but should one pass on advice it is not to say they do not know what they are talking about

I think all should just be a little more courteous of others and there back ground before they flame them. But if someone does ask a stupid question like...What is a blade holder for then a little rib tickling is in order.

[Braxus]

I became a Jedi Knight when i built my first saber and started teaching my friends how to build and wire their own.

I took the title "Master" in my sig when both of my friends made their own complex sabers and taught their other friends how to make a custom saber,

Yes, noone came up to me said "Brian, Your a Jedi Master now!" but in following with the traditions of the Jedi... I became a Knight when i built my saber and took an apprentice, and i became a Master when my apprentices became knights and built their own sabers and took apprentices.

I feel ive earned the title rightly. Now, im not of the same "saberbuilding" artistry of others but Ive taken the knowledge and build a pretty damn good saber, and ive spread the knowledge to others and them to others.

I see the title as "Jedi Master" not "Master Saberbuilder". A master saber builder can use, with master's skill, all the different techniques and tools. Now im not a "Master Saberbuilder". I havent even attempted to use sinktube overlays or a metal lathe. but, saber building is a relative art. People like soo many different styles and complexities that noone can say that their saber is better or worse then other peoples. I feel that if youve made a saber and at least helped someone in someway make theirs (example: here on the forums), then youve earned the title "Master".

[Obi-Dar Ke-Gnomie]

Very well put, Braxus. I think you've nailed it.

When you are able to learn for yourself, and put that education into practice, it shows a certain level of competence. When you then take that knowledge and are able to teach others, that elevates you higher.

[Barmic Rin]

Ooh, can I play? What about me? Am I a master? Jedi? ... or still a padawan? ;)

You can be 'cabin-boy'... LOL!!

And Maul, I agree! LOL!!

Thaxos, it's just six letters yes, but arrogance is nine letters. I appreciate it if people want to 'get into character', but why not give yourself an actual character name, and let your contributions declare what rank you are? I see 'master' as arrogance instead of character.
I have been on here over 3 years as an active member, built dozens of sabers, but do not consider myself anywhere near a Master. I used J-lo's guides back in the EL days, and if she isn't a master, I certainly am not.

My Bro is now on here, he went with a character name, as I warned him if he put 'Darth' or 'master' in the name, I would have officially started my petition to ban the use of them in usernames.

I don't want to whip it out to see who's bigger, but I do get sick of 'MasterXXX' or 'DarthXXX' asking 'will this saber need a blade holder/batteries/led?' or my all time favourite 'What's a blade retention screw for?'

Coral, you haven't asked too many noob questions, but there are plenty of people out there that have!

I think i'll just ignore anyone that asks a dumb question now, if they have evidence of searching, then they may get an answer, if not, i'll ignore them until they go away.

Ace said it best: "Don't expect the old guard to treat you like a Darth or Master if you ask Jar Jar questions."

[Invisas1979]

As a "noob" myself I completely understand where the "olde guard" are coming from but the problem I have is that, as experienced saber builders with the honorific that goes with such experience you should be being a little more conscientious.

I've been reading the boards for about 6 weeks now and only just signed to become a member. I could have answered half the silly questions people ask from doing my research but won't pose a question myself because it might be located somewhere in these archives and half a dozen of you will write back with un productive comments. That's not helpful, that puts people off. As does the term "noob" i'd prefer a star wars related honorific. Padawan will do as and when we get there.

My name is Invisas, I don't know if I’m a Darth or Knight, Lord or Master, but I wield the force and wield it strongly.

[JediMasterDak]

Like Braxus said, I've taught my buddy how to make a saber and he is ordering the parts for his first MHS saber! :p:p:p:p

[Revan]

who cares?!!!(facepalm)

i have been reading these forums for a LONG time. and only recently did i make a profile. i believe that it shouldn't matter what ppl call you, but it does matter that you are recognized by the saber community if you have a lot of input and have made a significant difference to everybody. like Novastar- made all of those wonderful sound fonts, Erv- do i really have to say?, Do-Clo has much experience even has his own site, Tim- self explanitory, Lori "Lord"Maul and others have been here from practically the beginning, Jaygon- knows his stuff! he makes some of the most beautiful sabers i have seen, Xwing- has also contributed his share; even coming up with the idea of a nylon blade to eliminate the light in a tube effect which was HUGE, also Grayven- has his wonderful tutorial to modify the construction kit by making it able to blend colors. there are lesser known ppl like Matt Thorn who figured out an awesome way to use the Star wars Ultimate Lightsaber sound board in a sink tube saber and have it work properly and efficiently while blending colors at the same time. there are others but this has turned out to be longer than i wanted (he he)

all these ppl have done huge things for this forum. if anybody are masters then these guys are like super masters or something. they all have my utmost respect. they don't need a "master" rank to be considered above the average, as long as they have the recognition that they deserve :)

[DarthHideous]

I don't know. I don't want to ruffle feathers but I think some of you are taking a message board a little to serious.

Its just a screen name and not real life or anything so I really don't see the big deal if someone wants to make believe they are a master or jedi.

I guess I just don't understand because I don't take message boards so seriously.

I enjoy the info I get from them (boards) but could care less what name a user uses.

Look I understand someone saying they are a master sabersmith or something when they have only made a couple of sabers and that being wrong etc. but a screen name...come on.

Then again I never call myself a master of anything. I am one of those that is good (sometimes only decent) at everything but great at nothing :D.

I agree with Zook. I only chose "Darth Hideous" as a joke sitting around w/ friends because it rhymed with "Sidious." I think of myself as more of a Dark Jedi Padawan, not a Sith Lord.
Besides, it's just having fun. Don't take it too seriously.

[grayven]

Master, Lord, Darth, Jedi. Whatever Just call me God Grayven, Master of my own domain, Lord of Lords, the Jedi of all Jedi's, The Darthiest of all Darths.

Yeah that sums me up.


Got to go my wife want's her panties back.

[Kal El Rah]

ha ha ha ha ha..............................................

[Mat Katarn]

ok...we're talking about fictional characters. "What is it with all the younglings/teenyboppers calling themselves "MASTER such-and-such?"" umm. why does it matter in the first place. i agree with zook, hidious and the rest, there are way too may homies that take this way too seriously. giving yourself a title or "earning" (used loosely) one doesn't make a difference. and if you're one of those cats that has been making sabers for 10+ years, guess what, you're still a nerd. congrats. i'm not bashing anyones work, but seriously. chill out.

[Tradeliphine]

perfect examples of lack of respect, braxus' idea works, i can respect that theory, it doesnt matter if youre a nerd or not, it doesnt matter if you are 14 or 41, if you are new to a trade or hobby you should respect those who came before you, you should do your own legwork and not ask them to spoonfeed you, its crappy upbringing, not "fictional characters that dont matter" Imagine a person walking into a dojo with a black belt on and declaring himself a master and asking a katana sheath was for? Think that would go over well? Imagine a guy walking into a police station with captains markings on a costume/uniform and asking which end of the gun the bullets come out of, how would that one go? I dont think most of the people who have the problem with this are really freaking out about it, just bothered, it seems the freaking has been done by those demanding that they deserve it or that it doesnt matter because its just letters on a page

[Novastar]

"I carry my adornments... only on my soul." ---Cyrano DeBergerac (Edmund Rostand's "Cyrano")

Actions always speak louder than words, and in this case... people's POSTS will reveal the types of "levels" everyone has.

That being said... everyone should remember that SW-related stuff *IS* about enjoying the FANTASY of a super-hero movie-world, and it's especially so when kids are... well... KIDS and like 10, 11... 15... 16... etc.

I say... call yourself what you like--what's in a name? Agreed with Gravy. In the end... only your behavior--anywhere in life--shows your mastery... of whatever subject or concept.

When people read enough on these forums... the truth will present itself about who is a "real" master (whatever that means) at whatever it is they speak/post about... and who is not.

While we're ruminating about that... hmmm... I've always considered MYSELF a jack of many trades but master of none. And I think it's pretty clear that... well... that is quite exactly who I am... in REAL LIFE. :) I have absolutely no mastery over much of any skills/trades/etc. in life... but certainly a proficiency in several of such things.

I think it's safe to say that every single person who comes on here... has strengths and weaknesses in hobbies/skills/crafts/trades too.

[grayven]

"I carry my adornments... only on my soul." ---Cyrano DeBergerac (Edmund Rostand's "Cyrano")

Actions always speak louder than words, and in this case... people's POSTS will reveal the types of "levels" everyone has.

That being said... everyone should remember that SW-related stuff *IS* about enjoying the FANTASY of a super-hero movie-world, and it's especially so when kids are... well... KIDS and like 10, 11... 15... 16... etc.

I say... call yourself what you like--what's in a name? Agreed with Gravy. In the end... only your behavior--anywhere in life--shows your mastery... of whatever subject or concept.

When people read enough on these forums... the truth will present itself about who is a "real" master (whatever that means) at whatever it is they speak/post about... and who is not.

While we're ruminating about that... hmmm... I've always considered MYSELF a jack of many trades but master of none. And I think it's pretty clear that... well... that is quite exactly who I am... in REAL LIFE. :) I have absolutely no mastery over much of any skills/trades/etc. in life... but certainly a proficiency in several of such things.

I think it's safe to say that every single person who comes on here... has strengths and weaknesses in hobbies/skills/crafts/trades too.

A true master would never label him-self one. The "Master" would come from others out of earned respect. While the "Master" would humbly remind you "not to call him Mater".

And don't even get me started on "Lord". That means you LDM.:p

I am a Jack of one trade and it involves a circle.:shock:

I find it funny that on a site like JSSDC we have a total of 7 members using either Master,Darth,Jedi or Lord in their name, when 90% are Masters That I look up too. However there is only one GodMastaerLordDarthJedi.:mrgreen:


In the End call your self what you want, we all know Who is who.

[Darth Vane]

What is it with all the younglings/teenyboppers calling themselves "MASTER such-and-such" in recent months?

Whats so wrong with being a Padawan...I'm no noob and I still consider myself a Padawan until I will [someday] EARN being a Master...and I'm 45 years old.

Just my $0.02

i agree i still am a padawan but i use my name as kinda of a set goal of what i will be called when i become a master. lol my Larping name is Actualy Vane Yagami.

[Revan]

Master, Lord, Darth, Jedi. Whatever Just call me God Grayven, Master of my own domain, Lord of Lords, the Jedi of all Jedi's, The Darthiest of all Darths.

Yeah that sums me up.


Got to go my wife want's her panties back.

ROTFLMAO!!!!! Grayven.... that was amazing :cool:

Novastar- well said bro!

[Lord Dottore Matto]

Hmmm...my personal username was derived from my backstory (A member of a royal family like Lord Valenthyne Farfalla, whose title actually had nothing to do with his Jedi Master status). Most of my contemporaries know what I am talking about...I do get a little ruffled over "Master", but not so much over anything else. As far as being a true master...You cannot give yourself that title! Others must do it for you, I mean am I a master sabersmith? Hell, ask Gravy or Maul or J-Lo or Eastern, or decide for yourself! I could tell you who the "Masters" are because I have read these entire forums, but I won't. Here is a hint, a "Master" does not have to build a high quantity of sabers, but he/she must have contributed in a significant way to the community or have great skill. I will divulge one who you all may not think about...Obi-dar please take a bow!:mrgreen:

[Rhyen Skytracker]

I agree with LDM. Also, Yoda said that "Wars do not make one great". The same goes for being a master in the sabersmith world. It doesn't matter how many sabers you have made that make you a master, what makes you a master is how you share the knowledge and wisdom you have gained from making all those sabers with others and teaching them to how learn from their mistakes and how to obtain knowledge on their own.

I know of several "masters" here on this site, but they do not consider themselves masters. Like LDM said "You cannot give yourself that title! Others must do it for you" And yes LDM, I do consider you one of the masters on here. Not because of all the sabers you have built, but because of all the knowledge and wisdom you have shared. Plus, being able to put up with me takes a true master. lol :D

[Drichar Deis]

I dont care who calls themselves what, as everyone knows who the masters are, they are the ones that give you the correct answers to questions.

My post count is huge, but it dont count for squat, Ive only made 1 saber and I havnt even tried to fit a soundcard yet!

Give respect to where it is due people!

[Jonitus]

I was probably one of the first, most vocal ones long ago about people assigning themselves a rank title when they had not earned it. It likely stems from my time in the military, where we had to EARN the title.

However, if someone wants to call themselves Master or Darth or Lord, who am I to stop them? Their lack of skill will show through and everyone will know the title is just a word - there will be no weight behind it.

I don't consider myself a Master, even though I have built some very complex, very nice sabers through the years. At one time, I was making more per month building sabers than I was at my 8-5 job. Still, I realized I had much to learn. I still do. I'm still learning and researching and pushing my boundaries and capabilities. If anything, I am an accomplished padawan learner.

There are some folks that I look to as MASTERS, for they have demonstrated mastery of their craft or mastery of how to solve problems to come up with wonderous sabers for us all to marvel at. Funny thing is - none of these folks has "Master" or "Darth" or "Lord" anywhere in theur username on this or any other forum they frequent.

[JedimasterJSA]

Just my two cents. Maybe their title comes not from arrogance or a lack of respect, but from mastery in a different area of life. Maybe they have mastered their job, or have earned the title from another hobby in life. They may still be new at saberbuilding, and maybe even building in general and may ask what is viewed as a stupid question on these forums, but they have earned the rank of master at their job or something like that...
Not to say that the lack of arrogance is non-existant, but I think we can give people the benefit-of-the-doubt. I don't think there is any need to automatically dismiss or dislike someone because they have "Master" or "Darth" in their user name. The ones who truly deserve to be dismissed will make it evident soon enough.
(BTW, my user name originates from a few stories that keep bouncing around my head. Plus it's the user name I've been using since I first joined StarWars.com, several years before I even knew TCSS or any saberbuiling in general existed. And since I don't want to have to remember a different user name for every single forum I visit, I just keep recycling this one. Maybe not quite the same as I mentioned above, but a good example of a user name originating from somewhere other than an arrogance when it comes to saberbuilding.)

Hope you are all doing well, and I hope we won't let something like "who has what in their user name" be enough to turn these boards into something ugly. I have always respected this community for it's ability to be fun and easy-going. I've been on some where it is an absolute nightmare, and I've even been scared to visit a couple because they were so bad. Let's not ruin this one over user names! :D

[Darth Vane]

i completly agree. the only "master" titlr i have is from Demolay. the title Being Master Counsolor. so i gusse i can say i have earned the title master...

[Darth Ralak]

I just picked my name for fun. I don't consider my self a master of the Sith, but I would like to gain enough info and skills to be one. I just joined the forums and if I ask some Jar Jar questions I'm sorry about that. One of the best ways to learn is to ask questions. Also It is better to be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all dought. I just wish i could remember who said that. :|

[Tradeliphine]

I just picked my name for fun. I don't consider my self a master of the Sith, but I would like to gain enough info and skills to be one. I just joined the forums and if I ask some Jar Jar questions I'm sorry about that. One of the best ways to learn is to ask questions. Also It is better to be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all dought. I just wish i could remember who said that. :|

doubt*

[Barmic Rin]

Well Ralak, researching wouldn't do amiss, though as i've said countless times, if you can show that you have researched a subject & honestly can't find an answer, there shouldn't be a problem.
People that put 'I am DarkLordJediMasterDarthSaber, how do you need a blade for these sabers?' as their first post need to be fired into the sun.

I've been on here 3yrs, contributed where I can, but would never call myself a master.

Grayven, you disgust me sometimes with your shenanigans! LOL!!!

[DJMoonbass]

i agree with everyone about the titles. you sort of need to earn them if you ARE truely a follower of the Starwars Way The True Way. thats why i deleted my signature. Darth Xeron.... i havent earned the title of Darth. Im just an adept. It will be Years before i feel worthy and several CNCd lightsabers later. As it was in the Darth bane books: he claimed the title of Darth for himself because he knew he was the only one suitable for it. but his name he chose when he turn to the Dark Path was Bane..... So my Sith name is Xeron. but not Darth.... Just Xeron of the Sith i guess...... lol:cool:

am i right on this???

[Barmic Rin]

For me to agree with you takes some doing, DJ, but yes, I feel it has to be earned.
You know too well the crispy end of the flamethrower, yet you have realised the folly of bigging yourself up the way some noobs do, and have grown from it. You've taken the time to read, so you of all people should be entitled to an opinion of someone that's been on 'the other side'.

[Darth Ralak]

Thanks man I can't spell. :D

[Jedi_Knight_Zekk]

I think both sides to this argument are valid, and certainly have evidence to support them. But I'd like to point out, some people (myself
included) will put Darth and Master and Jedi Knight into a user name, 1 because its SW appropriate, 2 because its SIMPLE. I think there's a great number of n00bs that have Darth and Master for user names just because they needed to be able to remember it. That was my case anyway. So why dont we bury the lightsaber, and just agree that those with skill have it, those that dont, dont. And that we're all friends here? :)

[Ty_Bomber]

Hey Zekk, just a friendly tip for you. Check the last post date before you respond. "Necroposting" is not just frowned upon, but against the forum rules. If you wanted to "bury the lightsaber and just get along" you should know that the topic WAS buried in 2009, and your post brings it back up to everyone's attention.

Cheers.

[Darth Nater]

A waste of space question here. Does "Necroposting" cost anyone any money? I realize the concept is what it is, but in the end, who cares. Go past it and on to the next. I have a login here to learn about stuff and for no other reason, yet this is the oddest forum I have ever been in ever. Weird rules about miniscule things that normally nobody should even care about one way or another, and contradicting ideals (such as don't waste space by adding posts, edit your original - while at the same time those individuals that enforce/comment about such things have dozens of one line flames or no value comments added to threads that contributed nothing besides wasting space themselves). Also, a lot of negativity from several "Senior Members" it seems towards what looks like people just looking for help/advice. I could be wrong, but from the outside looking in, it always seemed to me that the forum was supposed to be some type of support/information source for the store. You would think the atmosphere would be a little more friendly, but about 35-40% of the time it doesn't seem to be the case. I've done many searches and spent several hours just lurking and reading, its almost tiring how many snippy remarks get made to innocents just asking questions. And not always the most basic self explanatory ones either. I wonder how much business Tim has lost from a noob getting frustrated by being flamed for asking about something completely new to them, and just got mad and left? Nearly lost me last year when I first looked into building sabers for my kids over the exact thing. Jerks for no reason. I've likely spent around $800 in the store over the last year, and I'm not done. Thats a mere drop in the bucket of course, but regardless, business is business and revenue is revenue. Thats my perspective and I'll return to lurking.

So to add to the necropost, I put the name I have on here because it required me to have one, one of my kids is named Nate, Nater rhymes with Vader, its marginally humorous to me. Not a whole lot of thought went into it, I came up with it on the spot when required to create an ID to login. It might as well have been potato casserole, it was not a big deal to me.

[Kevin Starwaster]

A waste of space question here. Does "Necroposting" cost anyone any money? I realize the concept is what it is, but in the end, who cares. Go past it and on to the next. I have a login here to learn about stuff and for no other reason, yet this is the oddest forum I have ever been in ever. Weird rules about miniscule things that normally nobody should even care about one way or another, and contradicting ideals (such as don't waste space by adding posts, edit your original - while at the same time those individuals that enforce/comment about such things have dozens of one line flames or no value comments added to threads that contributed nothing besides wasting space themselves). Also, a lot of negativity from several "Senior Members" it seems towards what looks like people just looking for help/advice. I could be wrong, but from the outside looking in, it always seemed to me that the forum was supposed to be some type of support/information source for the store. You would think the atmosphere would be a little more friendly, but about 35-40% of the time it doesn't seem to be the case. I've done many searches and spent several hours just lurking and reading, its almost tiring how many snippy remarks get made to innocents just asking questions. And not always the most basic self explanatory ones either. I wonder how much business Tim has lost from a noob getting frustrated by being flamed for asking about something completely new to them, and just got mad and left? Nearly lost me last year when I first looked into building sabers for my kids over the exact thing. Jerks for no reason. I've likely spent around $800 in the store over the last year, and I'm not done. Thats a mere drop in the bucket of course, but regardless, business is business and revenue is revenue. Thats my perspective and I'll return to lurking.

So to add to the necropost, I put the name I have on here because it required me to have one, one of my kids is named Nate, Nater rhymes with Vader, its marginally humorous to me. Not a whole lot of thought went into it, I came up with it on the spot when required to create an ID to login. It might as well have been potato casserole, it was not a big deal to me.

Let me provide a real world example of when 'necroposting' is good. I used to be quite active in the Crysis modding community and posted a few mods and sample code/shader files on the crymod forum. Any thread I created I was subscribed to automagically. So when someone posted a critical question on some source code I'd posted I was notified via email and could respond. Except that some forum members took it upon themselves to chastise that person for necroposting. Their advice was to either PM me or start another thread. Except that at that time I was somewhat less active so there was risk of my inbox filling up as it occasionally did. And starting another thread wouldn't have been noticed by me.

It likewise wouldn't be a terrible stretch to envision situations in which editing a post becomes counter productive compared to adding a new post.

[TuxedoCartman]

I have a login here to learn about stuff and for no other reason, yet this is the oddest forum I have ever been in ever. Weird rules about miniscule things that normally nobody should even care about one way or another, and contradicting ideals (such as don't waste space by adding posts, edit your original - while at the same time those individuals that enforce/comment about such things have dozens of one line flames or no value comments added to threads that contributed nothing besides wasting space themselves). Also, a lot of negativity from several "Senior Members" it seems towards what looks like people just looking for help/advice. I could be wrong, but from the outside looking in, it always seemed to me that the forum was supposed to be some type of support/information source for the store. You would think the atmosphere would be a little more friendly, but about 35-40% of the time it doesn't seem to be the case. I've done many searches and spent several hours just lurking and reading, its almost tiring how many snippy remarks get made to innocents just asking questions. And not always the most basic self explanatory ones either. I wonder how much business Tim has lost from a noob getting frustrated by being flamed for asking about something completely new to them, and just got mad and left? Nearly lost me last year when I first looked into building sabers for my kids over the exact thing. Jerks for no reason. I've likely spent around $800 in the store over the last year, and I'm not done. Thats a mere drop in the bucket of course, but regardless, business is business and revenue is revenue. Thats my perspective and I'll return to lurking.

Darth Nater, you're seeing the trees, but not the forest. You're so close, but not quite grasping why it is the senior members tend to get so upset with noobs on here.

Look at it this way: you're right, this forum does exist to educate viewers on saber-building techniques. But whereas the senior members view this forum as a place to exchange new ideas and to use as a database for existing techniques, a lot of noobs prefer to treat this forum as a chat-room, with no thought to the overall community.

For example: noob shows up, and decides he's going to be the next Dark Lord of Suburbia, and wants him a kickin' lightsaber yo. He knows nothing about electronics, and has no desire to learn (a trait which, I'm sorry, describes about 75% of the new people I've seen on here). If he were to go into the TCSS Chat area, and ask, "I need to know what resistor to use on my main blade. I've got the Crystal Focuses yo", then his request would either be answered, ridiculed (which is the correct answer), or ignored... and within a few hours, will fade into history, never to be seen or heard from again (till the next noob, about 30 seconds later).

Now, that same scenario, only posted onto the forums. "Yo! What resistor do I need? I've got some batteries and an led... tell me!" Do you know what happens then? It goes into the archives. Every... single... time... a newbie asks the same old question, the same question that has been answered a million times throughout the forums history, and is even stickied in two or three places at the top of different sections, under big bold letters that say "HERE'S ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW TO MAKE A SABER!!!"... then those questions go right into the archive, along with all of the others.

You may be asking, "So what? More info is better, right?" Here's why that's bad. Let's say now you've got a Padawan level smith looking to build a new saber. He's already made a stunt, and his last one had the Petit Crouton in it. Now, he's looking to go all out and put in an LED Engin, with FoC. However, he has zero experience with the SMD-type resistors needed on the Power Extender. So what's he do? He researches, liked a responsible saber-smith should. Does a search for "resistor" on the board, and... comes up with 5,302,405,234 results, all the same. Sure, somewhere in all of that there may be one thread that deals with exactly what he wants to know... maybe. Or maybe he'll go crazy trying to find it, and will snap at the next noob who signs up just so they can ask what a blade retention screw is. Do you see my point?

The senior members on here, whom you think are so negative, actually pioneered a lot of the techniques we use without question on our first saber builds now. Several of them have been around since before LEDs were used in saber-replicas. They learned a lot of these techniques by trial and error, and learned of electronics on their own from either school or reading. They didn't have ready-made wiring schematics and do-it-yourself diagrams labeled for easy builds. So when someone shows up and EXPECTS them to help them out with questions that are so very easily obtained on one's own... yeah, I can understand why they'd get indignant. Especially since so many of us are leaning on their expertise, and the only thing they get from it are accusations of not doing enough for the newbies.

Okay, rant over.

[FenderBender]

Darth Nater, you're seeing the trees, but not the forest. You're so close, but not quite grasping why it is the senior members tend to get so upset with noobs on here.

"words"

Okay, rant over.

Wow....that was....REALLY well said......:shock:

Yes, though we have tried to get better at at least 'ignoring' the annoying questions...sometimes we still get the "grumpy old men" syndrome. I am guilty of it too. I just look at it as I read the forums for over a year before I even joined. I'm sure I asked a noob question or two, but the rest, I learned by watching, reading, and...wait for it.....DOING!

[Boj-Vaati Mau]

Omedeto! Very well said TuxedoCartman-san!

[pvcpo]

you guys are too much!!

[Darth Nater]

Darth Nater, you're seeing the trees, but not the forest. You're so close, but not quite grasping why it is the senior members tend to get so upset with noobs on here.


Oh make no mistake, I understand it completely. I'm not stupid. I just notice that many have a snippy demeaning way of going about it. If you see a black blade or a blade retention screw question, why even bother replying. And don't make me out as if I said all Senior members are this way. I didnt. But I did say several. Its very 14yr old girlish. Like they get some feeling of satisfaction or prestige from it. Regardless, its a waste of time to discuss, and I shouldn't have even let myself go into a rant. Arguing on the internet is one of the most pointless things anyway.

[pvcpo]

agree with DARTH nater i do! just ridiculous.

[Jedi Master Taka]

Going back to the question of using the honorifics of Master or Darth…
I have built around 35 sabers now. A mere drop in the bucket compared to most of the old guard on the boards. I can do pretty much what ever I want to with a lux or P4 set up, but I am still trying to work my head around the 10w setups. I do not now nor will I ever consider my self a Master Sabersmith. In point of fact I don’t even really consider my self a Sabersmith period. The old Guard and a few talented new guys are the Sabersmiths on this forum. They have EARNED that title. They can do things with saber electronics that MAY actually require the force from my point of reference. Me? I’m just a guy who likes to build sabers, and then use them in combat. I try to read the forums to learn rather than ask a lot of questions. Occasionally when I get confused, I will ask a question, and do my best not to sound to stupid. The real Sabersmiths around here have always been awesome at helping me out and for that they have my gratitude.

Now having said that… In Star Wars being a Master or Lord is not all about who builds the best light sabers. You can be a Master for you skill at combat, negotiation, even research. Any one remembers the Jedi Librarian? Did she even carry a saber? If someone has real life skills other than saber building that they feel qualifies them for the title, then great let them use it. Are you going to tell the brain surgeon that he hasn’t built enough sabers to call him self “Jedi Master Medic”? Somehow I don’t thinks so… And if you are, please take a moment to stop…think…and go get a damn life.
And if some kid decides to register calling him self a Jedi or Darth because it puts him in the mood to build sabers, who cares? As long as he’s not calling him self a Sabersmith and giving out bad info, who cares what he calls himself? Lets all call him Master Darth so that he will build a saber and give Tim his money so that Tim will build us more cool stuff. And who knows… Maybe just Maybe, Master Darth will learn and grow to be part of the next generation of real Sabersmiths.

[pvcpo]

well, out of curiousity- how many even use their sabers for any kind of duelling?? probaly not a lot, i imagine most are still running and hiding their saber when the wifey gets home, or are to affraid to get a smack with a blade, oh i dont duel with my crstal foc- whatever!, if you want to claim master or darth it does not matter how many builds you have under your belt- the idea was construct your own saber and move on, but most had to know how to use it also!! so suck in the guts, get off the couch and earn it! in the military you advance by showing you are capable to do what needs to be done and your ability to lead others not put them down! not saying correcting some one on here who is new is wrong, but in the time it took to ridicule that person they could have pointed the way with one of their little " its right here" posts like they do to so often, but instead mister "senior" member is having a bad day and takes it out on new member, so as far as respect- please, its earned not given- bottom line, so when new guy reads seniors post putting others down- well guess what!! then they cry about no respect!! wow, really??? and especially those with the jedi word in the sig- try acting it!! you guys get your respect in the comments that come from members who like your work! what more do you need??? seriously its the older members who act the most childish on here towards others and its apparently o.k for them to act that way, but i know im not the only one who thinks this way, so big dogs- lead by example!!

[Jedi Master Taka]

well, out of curiousity- how many even use their sabers for any kind of duelling?? probaly not a lot, i imagine most are still running and hiding their saber when the wifey gets home, or are to affraid to get a smack with a blade, oh i dont duel with my crstal foc- whatever!

Ah... I would say that the Vast majority of the members "duel" with their sabers in some form. Some just for fun, some as part of the entertainment industry, ans some as part of a part of a developing martial art. As for hiding their sabers from their wives... Some of their wives are better Sabersmiths than you or I will ever be...

[pvcpo]

your funny!!! lol- sounds like you lack confidence in YOUR work.

[Darth Grunt]

The reason why I've called myself Darth Grunt isn't because I believe I'm intitled to it I just like the name. I mean no offence by naming myself Darth I just like it. I want to earn the title so I use it as inspiration. Even when I maybe considered a master by forum rank there is always more to learn. A name is just that its what you do & the knowledge you acquired & share that will show who is a true master. IMO.

[Jedi Master Taka]

Oh, I have all the confidence in the world in my work. Mostly because, I actually do use my sabers to spar full contact.

You on the other hand should take the time to get to know a few of the people on the board before you run about making blanket insults. It only makes you sound petty and immature. But hey, do it your way. Insult all of the Sabersmiths who really do know something. Lets see how that works out for ya.

[pvcpo]

hahaha!! your funny!! full contact? no problem, if your ever in the san diego area, thats california- pm me and well put the blades to the test, i love a great duel! and i love meeting new people, people who dont act like know it alls! because nobody does! and thats the problem here, so enough commenting here about this and maybe someday i will get that pm, i would enjoy that.

[TuxedoCartman]

"however if i needed guidence from a veteran, i would expect it." Quote from a self-described noob recently posted on here (emphasis mine).

This. This is exactly the sort of behavior I feel is at the heart of conflict on this board between noobs and old guard. I'd even wager that it is the underlying reason why Onli-Won Kanomi started this thread, and supporters of that position have contributed to it. The hostility you're seeing come down from on high isn't hatred of noobs because they don't know anything, or are new; it's frustration with noobs who are boastful and proud of their ignorance. The ones who will not put in any effort to learn, but rather feel entitled to the information, that it should be served up to them on a silver platter. Show me one time where an old-guard member has unjustifiably snapped at a youngling, and I'll show you a 100 where they have bent over backwards helping the rudest, most stubborn noobs find the simplest information. (Interesting side note: in the real world, it's become common for old people to refer to today's youth as the "entitlement generation." But on here, I've noticed age makes no difference. I've seen the same behavior in people way, way older than myself... old enough to know better).

pvcpo, I don't want to be the grownup in the room who spoils the far, far away fantasy... but this is the real-world, man. We're not issuing The Trials to council members on this board. Who cares what you have done or can do outside of this site? This site is geared towards a very narrow, very specific field: building prop lightsabers (specifically, building prop lightsabers using parts from the site's gracious host, TCSS). Maybe you can duel better. Maybe another member can run faster. I know I can place in the top 5% of drivers on this forum, as cars are my other expensive hobby outside of this. My knowledge of tuning the GDB WRX is quite likely superior to everyone else's on this forum, so does that mean I get to talk down... or heck, even as an equal... to X-Wing or Erv or any other veterans here if I approach them for help on a topic? NO!!! Why? Because they know vastly more about saber-building than I do, and I need their help for that purpose.

THAT is real life: you don't approach someone asking for help with a haughty attitude and a "Gimme what I want!" manner of speech. You may get what you want one time, maybe even two... but after a while, people will just start ignoring you (or calling you out for being a prat, which is what is happening 99% of the times Darth Nater referred to). And make no mistake, that is EXACTLY what noobs are doing when they ask questions that clearly indicate they haven't read so much as even the stickies at the top of the page titled "New To Saber Building? Start Here": they're telling everyone here, "Hey, do my work for me." Within the last two weeks, there was a thread started by someone who wanted to build, quote, "a CF 5.1O, Flash on Clash 1OW, Crystal chamber, Crystal Chassis, Heavy dueling Lightsaber with a strong battery." Ambitious goal, and nothing wrong with that. But he then went on to ask what he needed in addition to a hollow hilt. <facepalm> He wasn't asking for help in creating his own saber, or for help with technical issues on any one area of design with it... no, he was wanting someone to do the work of putting it all together for him. Work which would quite simply be wasted, as if you don't know how to select the parts you need then how can you expect to craft or assemble them into a finished product?

Can I tell you why this sort of behavior upsets me? It's because I have about as much knowledge of electronics as I do about astrophysics (which is to say, near as makes difference... zero). I can barely say that I've been in this hobby for months (plural), and certainly can not list my years of making sabers. However, I took the time to READ. I read all the stickies, and if there was something I didn't understand, I did a search for it. Wasn't on the site, I googled it. I tried to figure out not just what I should do, but WHY I should do it. I made two posts prior to the completion of my saber: one was a wiring schematic I wanted veterans to double check for me, and the other was a post so dumb no one had thought to ask it before. But here's the thing: it HADN'T been asked before. Wasn't in the archive, and no one flamed me for asking it. Not even two months later, I fired up a functional saber complete with sound and accent LEDs. Worked beautifully. And I would not have been able to do it were it not for the wealth of information already in the archives here, provided by more experienced members.

So when the useful members of this community are blasted for telling a noob that they should read more... how do you think I feel? I know first-hand that all the information you need for constructing a first-class saber is on this site. Is your time so much more valuable than mine that you can't be bothered to read? Does Google for some reason fail to work on your computer? And what of the overall effect this kind of entitlement attitude has on the community? is it worth driving away the members with so much expertise that I have learned from so that you don't have to be bothered to learn to use a resistor calculator?

For what it's worth, in both of the threads I've quoted from, professional saber-smiths (that would be, "saber-smiths who make money crafting and selling the very thing they're helping you build on your own... for free") have taken the time to personally respond to their inquiries, and tried to help them find the information that would be most useful to them. Clearly they are better people than I, because my first instinct was open mockery in both instances. And yet some people think this site is one of the most hostile places on the web? If that is the case, I can only assume they haven't been on the internet for long. Go check out any of the specialty car forums like NASIOC, or any place that deals with video games... I can guarantee you, you'll have a new-found respect for this place when you get back.

TL;DR... Old Guard contribute vastly to the knowledge and wisdom of this site, noobs clutter the archives. Point goes to Old Guard.

[TuxedoCartman]

Oh, and regarding the name thing? (You know... the topic of this thread?) Simple formula...

Darth/ Master + <badass name> + low experience = obnoxious.
Darth/ Master + <goofy name> + low experience = not obnoxious.

Ergo, all noobs being equal, "Jedi Master Jar-Jar" is less annoying than "DarthDoominus666".

[psab keel]

I personally have no problem with whatever screenname they chose (for the most part.) I do have a problem with arrogance. I've been in this hobby since the days of plasma sabers (since roughly 2000) and as many have said the ones who have the skills to back up their claims will go far in this hobby. For newcomers, I encourage their enthusiasm, but it should be tempered with respect for those that have been doing this saber building thing for a long time. Hopefully for the newbs who come along and brag about their mastery of the craft, they will be humbled when they attempt to do what the experts can do. In essence it all comes down to humility. I still learn new things everyday about this hobby and the innovation and creativity of my fellow smiths astounds me.

[Lucien Kane]

This whole thread seems to be a personal attack against noobs to me. Was Jocasta Nu a master? Yes, could she build a lightsaber and use it as well as other Jedi? No, her expertise lay in lore and history.

Here's the deal, I think what PVCPO is trying to say is this... and I'll use myself as an example.

I have been lurking saber sites for the last 5 years. I was in the Marine Corps and I bought my first two sabers that weren't MR from Parksabers. When I found out there was an entire world of LED sabers I was blown away! I quickly learned that in this community, and I mean the saber community not just here. If you ask a question you get slammed by some veteran builder who doesn't like new builders. This is such a hostile community, and for such a narrow community we should be tight knit. I was in special forces, and even guys who were not the most liked were well watched out for. We had veteran guys who didn't like us, but they still watched out for us and taught us everything we knew.

Am I a master of sabersmithing? No I'm only just now working on my first scratch saber build, ironically out of PVC... *looks at PVCPO* That being said, I would clean some of you guys out in a lightsaber duel. I'm not bragging, I'm just saying, I've put 15 + years into martial arts, and over 5 years of researching and developing lightsaber forms. Am I the best? No, Am I pretty good? Yes. I don't get all snarky when someone asks me a dumb question about dueling though. I try to be very humble with this, because it's important to me.

You guys want to call PVCPO arrogant? Some of the veterans on this site are arrogant. You've been building for over ten years? Good job! Why does that make you better than me? Why can't I ask a stupid question to someone who knows what they are talking about. I wouldn't ask you guys about martial arts... because this isn't a martial arts site. If I want to know something about sabers I'd love to pick some of these veteran builder's brains. I don't feel like I can ask any of you guys questions because of how hostile it is when a new person asks a question.

The fact of the matter is, there are some GREAT smiths here, and I respect that, however the attitudes and hostilities that I see on various saber sites are just heartbreaking to me. This community could be so much more if we all united and organized. We could organize saber tournaments and meet ups and various camps, but instead we're all bickering over why the new guy has a master title. Yeah PVCPO is the immature one ;)

[TuxedoCartman]

Before I carry this discussion any further, I want to clarify my interpretation of terminology. There are noobs, and there are beginners/ younglings/ padawans. These are not the same. A beginner (my term of choice) is someone who simply does not have much experience with saber-building or electronics in general. A noob embodies all the qualities I ranted on earlier: an unwillingness to learn, an entitlement attitude, arrogance, general lack of respect towards a community, etc... With that said, is it fair to say I am hating on noobs? You betcha.

If you don't mind, Lucien, since you volunteered yourself as an example, I shall continue to use you as one.


If you ask a question you get slammed by some veteran builder who doesn't like new builders. This is such a hostile community, and for such a narrow community we should be tight knit.

This community is anything but hostile to new builders. Like I pointed out earlier, a lot of the people on here I've seen bending over backwards to help noobs (yes, noobs... not just beginners), make their money by building commissioned sabers for people. If they were half as heartless as you think they are, they wouldn't be cutting into their own profits by volunteering information and help on this forum. I've got about as little experience as is possible, and yet not once has anybody been rude to me, or talked down to me. I know several others who would say the same thing. So you gotta ask yourself... if they're being rude to certain people, why? Well, if you take a minute or two to read, you'll see that the number one complaint from veterans is... nobody reads. This was all explained pretty well in the last two pages of this very thread, and yet neither you nor pvcpo have addressed those complaints; you've instead resorted to the same ol', same ol' "Waah... older forum members are being mean!"


I was in special forces, and even guys who were not the most liked were well watched out for. We had veteran guys who didn't like us, but they still watched out for us and taught us everything we knew.

And good god I would hope so. Getting upset at noobs for asking the same old questions about blade retention screws is one thing, letting a man get his head shot off on the battlefield is another. How can you even make the comparison? If it makes you feel better, though, if I know that finding a particular resistor value right this second is the only thing standing between you and certain death, I'll run the numbers for you, okay?


That being said, I would clean some of you guys out in a lightsaber duel. I'm not bragging, I'm just saying, I've put 15 + years into martial arts, and over 5 years of researching and developing lightsaber forms. Am I the best? No, Am I pretty good? Yes. I don't get all snarky when someone asks me a dumb question about dueling though. I try to be very humble with this, because it's important to me.

Yes, you are. You're bragging. Saying "I'm not bragging," at the beginning doesn't change the fact that you're bragging. But that's beside the point... which, coincidentally enough, so is your bragging. What does saber-dueling have to do with a forum whose purpose it is to assist people in building sabers? There are other forums that focus heavily on all aspects of Star Wars fandom, but you'll notice this one is very narrowly focused on building sabers with TCSS parts.

But let me use your analogy for just a moment. Are you telling me that, honestly, that if you were to take the time to share your knowledge of martial arts with others, and every practice session the same students showed up holding their sabers by the blade with the hilt out in front of them, and no amount of gentle chiding could ever break them of this habit... you would never snap at them? You wouldn't get angry, from time to time at the sheer willful stupidity? That those veterans you spoke of in Special Forces continuously tolerated the same idiocy day in and day out? I know that one's not true; I've got family who are military too.


You guys want to call PVCPO arrogant? Some of the veterans on this site are arrogant.

Nobody specifically called him arrogant. I believe what psab keel said was that there is a problem with arrogance on this forum... and I heartily agree with him. And yes, some of the veterans on this site are arrogant. Out of the top ten major players on this site, I can think of one... maybe two... I'd rather not have any dealings with. But that just goes to show how great of a community this is; did you not read my post about the NASIOC forums earlier? Or dear lord, any of the Honda forums... <shudder>


You've been building for over ten years? Good job! Why does that make you better than me?

In the real world, as an overall human being... it doesn't. But within the confines of this narrowly focused forum (again, saber-building topics only, for the most part), the fact that they have over ten years experience makes them better than you. Also, the fact that you admit to asking stupid questions, that you want answers for... presumably from people with more experience... makes those with more experienced better than you. Again... arrogance. I have no problems admitting these people are better at this than me, because I recognize my limitations and appreciate whatever help anyone here can offer, if they offer any at all.

And since I want them to continue offering help, so we don't all have to continue re-inventing the wheel every time we get our geek on, I make an effort to be as courteous and respectful as I can. If they feel I'm asking a question that's been covered somewhere else on this site, and they're tired of answering it, I'll apologize and go read some more. A little extra work figuring out differences in parallel vs. series wiring now may pay off down the road when I REALLY need help with something truly difficult, like machining crystal chambers or Crystal Focus boards.


The fact of the matter is, there are some GREAT smiths here, and I respect that, however the attitudes and hostilities that I see on various saber sites are just heartbreaking to me. This community could be so much more if we all united and organized. We could organize saber tournaments and meet ups and various camps, but instead we're all bickering over why the new guy has a master title. Yeah PVCPO is the immature one ;)

If you truly respect the veteran saber-smiths on here, take a moment to figure out what exactly it is about noobs that makes them so angry. It's not difficult: five minutes worth of reading and you'll notice a pattern. Read the stickies for new members, and you'll see exactly why it is the old guard tend to get cranky. Read this post (http://forums.thecustomsabershop.com/showthread.php?9518-Helpful-advice-to-the-self-proclaimed-quot-n00bs-quot), and eastern57 tells you exactly why they get upset with noobs. Frankly, I think that single post should be required reading before your account here is ever activated.

It is not my intention to be rude, or condescending, but so many noobs truly don't seem to understand why people get upset with them. Then when it's explained to them, all we hear are cries of, "Uh uh... he's just being mean!" It's almost funny, because I'm writing this hoping they'll read and understand, when their main problem is... they don't read. <sigh>

TL;DR... Be a beginner, don't be a noob. And read more.

[Ty_Bomber]

There's a difference between a noob and a new guy. I was new to this once. But I didn't bark a every talented smith on his site to give me an online apprenticeship for free either. I lurked, I read, I googled if necessary. This is a DO IT YOURSELF HOBBY. There's more than enough information on here to build your sabers. You dont HAVE to ask, it's a waste of EVERYONE'S time (including yours) to ask. All you have to do is READ. You're going to do it anyway, why not do the research first? Every question I've ever had was answered before I ever opened my mouth. That's not to say that I won't have questions in the future, but I know that when that day comes, I'll get good advice because it's a good question, and i DID MY RESEARCH FIRST. Demanding the experienced people on these forums to write a 12 step program for you on a site that already contains the relevant information and then calling them patronizing, rude, whatever, is like walking into a library and asking the LIBRARIAN to tell you how to build a house. It makes you seem lazy, rude, and ignorant.

As for the responses to my original comment, go read the rules and regulations. No necroposting. Also, don't claim all the smiths are patronizing because I made a friendly (if snarky) comment about not necroposting because they have nothing to do with me. I'm no smith, I'm just a learner, like most of the people here. I'm nothing but grateful for the information theyve shared with all of us, and they deserve our respect. I you have problems with the rules and regulations, you shouldn't have checked the little box that says "I agree to the terms of use."

Rant over.

[TuxedoCartman]

There's a difference between a noob and a new guy. I was new to this once. But I didn't bark a every talented smith on his site to give me an online apprenticeship for free either. I lurked, I read, I googled if necessary. This is a DO IT YOURSELF HOBBY. There's more than enough information on here to build your sabers. You dont HAVE to ask, it's a waste of EVERYONE'S time (including yours) to ask. All you have to do is READ. You're going to do it anyway, why not do the research first? Every question I've ever had was answered before I ever opened my mouth. That's not to say that I won't have questions in the future, but I know that when that day comes, I'll get good advice because it's a good question, and i DID MY RESEARCH FIRST. Demanding the experienced people on these forums to write a 12 step program for you on a site that already contains the relevant information and then calling them patronizing, rude, whatever, is like walking into a library and asking the LIBRARIAN to tell you how to build a house. It makes you seem lazy, rude, and ignorant.

As for the responses to my original comment, go read the rules and regulations. No necroposting. Also, don't claim all the smiths are patronizing because I made a friendly (if snarky) comment about not necroposting because they have nothing to do with me. I'm no smith, I'm just a learner, like most of the people here. I'm nothing but grateful for the information theyve shared with all of us, and they deserve our respect. I you have problems with the rules and regulations, you shouldn't have checked the little box that says "I agree to the terms of use."

Rant over.

<applauds>

[psab keel]

I would have assumed that my last statement would have summed up how I felt about this hobby and the saber building community. I've seen some newcomers who entered this place and blown us away with their ingenuity and imagination, and I've seen some veterans who ran their mouths about how great they were and yet their skills don't back up their claims. The point is that arrogance runs both ways.

Veterans have to temper their experience with patience for the enthusiasm from new members. New members have to temper their enthusiasm with the experience from veterans. Make sense? As has been stated though, this is a do it yourself hobby and there is no excuse for a new member to expect to be spoon fed from those that have the know how.

I wasn't stating my length of involvement in the hobby as a means to brag about it. I simply have confidence in my abilities because of years of experience. There's a difference. I don't consider myself a master builder, nor would I be self centered enough to think that my work is the best that has ever been made. But if I debunk a concept that is presented from a new member because I've tried it and it doesn't work, I'm simply trying to save that member's time and energy (and in some cases money.) If I ask a new member to read or use the search function to answer a question that has been answered ad nauseum.... you get the point.

All that veterans really are asking for from new comers is that they show some initiative. If this forum (or any other saber building forum) was as unwelcoming to newcomers as some claim, then these sites wouldn't have the amount of users that they do and would have died out years ago.

[Ty_Bomber]

Just to clarify, Zekk, I wasn't trying to jump down your throat or target you specifically. My original comment was meant to be just jesting, but it doesn't always translate in text. Sorry if I didn't come across as very friendly. I know your comments were innocent enough. Just trying to clarify the rules (which should be followed) but not be too serious about it.

[Lucien Kane]

I think we forget that this is first and foremost a business, so anyone who hairflips out of here is a customer that Tim is losing to me that is disrespectful to Tim, and not conducive to a business environment. As someone who has been a shift manager at a grocery store, I know the importance of smiling and gritting your teeth when a customer is being difficult. If you do things right, that customer can still be ticked at you, and still give you there money, but you have to be nice even when they are being difficult. I know I wouldn't tolerate people coming into my business and trashing my customers or making them feel unwelcome... Why is this okay online?

I'm sorry, I am attempting to be as tactful as possible, so understand that I am attempting to disagree without being disagreeable, but the question what does dueling have to do with building sabers? Really? What is the blade in your saber made out of? My blades are made out of polycarbonate.... This material is made to take a beating, lets face it, these sabers are made for dueling, so I don't see how dueling isn't relevant. The Staged combat for fan films and sparring side for us martial artists is what draws many of us to the saber world.

As far as using the search function I am not the most computer savvy, but I do know how to type in the question I want answered. I have searched out many of my dumb questions here, and there are so many threads I rarely find what I'm looking for. Mind is you this is after searching through over 10 pages of threads, this site is not small. So I can see why there are a lot of repeat questions. I don't understand why it is so hard to just answer them nicely. I have taught martial arts, I also work as a Jr. High leader at the Church I go to... All I do is answer the same questions over and over again, so maybe it just doesn't make sense to me for that reason.

Here's the issue, what makes us think people are hostile with new people who are ignorant to building sabers... which I count myself among those ranks.

1. It isn't okay to question the status quo. If something gets asked too much, it becomes a taboo subject, that is not to be mentioned.

2. The multiple threads complaining about noobs. I feel I tread on thin ice on a few different forums, and it always seems to come down to the fact that you just shouldn't ask questions.

3. This clique-y atmosphere perpetuated by a few different saber communities. This community uses this sound card exclusively, while this one won't touch any technology made by these other guys. It's so sad, I see a lot of things I like from many different sites, and I feel like I get looked at sideways when I post my parksaber somewhere. It's like we can't handle anything new coming around because it isn't made by that guy that we always use.

I think the main thing we forget is that this is all thanks to George Lucas, he knows about the various saber businesses out there and he lets us do our thing! He could issue a cease and desist anytime he wanted, but he lets us play in his galaxy. I honestly hope he doesn't read some of the stuff that goes on on some of these sites because I think he'd put a stop to the whole saber thing. It may be ridiculous, but I sometimes worry about this.

Once again, when it comes to building sabers I am an ignorant noob. I have a ton of stupid questions, and if I didn't know several really polite and nice sabersmiths I would never have started my first scratch build. So I apologize if any of my post sounds stand offish, but from a purely business perspective I can't believe some of the things that are said to potential customers.

[psab keel]

Lucien, you are correct in pointing out that this is a business, but you also have to understand that no one on the forums (at least to my knowledge) is an employee of Tim. Because of this fact alone no one here is being paid to post answers to peoples questions. Posting anything in the forums is voluntary.

You're addressing several different subjects here:

1. There is nothing wrong with questioning things, but if the question has been asked repeatedly and the answer is in a thread that has been highlighted, then we encourage our new members to read through those threads to learn. Nothing wrong with suggesting a person do some research.

2. I'm not aware of "newb trashing threads" and I certainly wouldn't want to be a part of it because there is no need for that. I think what many of us express is a frustration with newcomers who feel entitled to be given answers when they could find them through time spent reading and learning. If you still can't find an answer for your questions then PM someone, or start a new thread explaining where you've searched and what you are looking for, and more often than not you'll get the answers you're looking for. A lot of times veterans of the forums will send a reply with a direct link to where you can read the answer to your question, or the thread where it can be found in. If a student doesn't do their homework, how can a teacher expect their students to grow? Make sense? Same principle applies. Veterans have the experience to back up their claims but have no obligation to have to sit down and teach someone everything they know just because someone demands it. If a newcomer shows initiative then we are more than happy to help, but that means the new guy/ gal has to show that they've put a bit of effort into it.

3. Many alliances have been made and been broken in the saber community over the years. That is an entirely different topic altogether. For the purposes of this forum though, I'd say that following the rules of this forum (number one: to NOT post any outside sources for parts or sabers which would take away from TCSS's business) will help tremendously.

It's not the intent of any of the forum members, or any member of the saber community to make new comers feel unwelcome. But again, the point comes down to new members who come into our community and feel entitled to be spoon fed. That is why older members get frustrated with new ones when they expect things. Show us respect by showing that you've researched for answers, and if you can't find it, then we will respectfully help you as best we can.

[TuxedoCartman]

I'm sorry, I am attempting to be as tactful as possible, so understand that I am attempting to disagree without being disagreeable, but the question what does dueling have to do with building sabers? Really? What is the blade in your saber made out of? My blades are made out of polycarbonate.... This material is made to take a beating, lets face it, these sabers are made for dueling, so I don't see how dueling isn't relevant. The Staged combat for fan films and sparring side for us martial artists is what draws many of us to the saber world.

Crafting a saber that can withstand the rigors of dueling is very relevant to this board. Your ability and prowess at dueling has no relevancy at all. Do you see the difference? This is a board to assist people in BUILDING things. Just because you're a good driver doesn't mean I want you disassembling and reassembling my engine, to use an automotive analogy.


As far as using the search function I am not the most computer savvy, but I do know how to type in the question I want answered. I have searched out many of my dumb questions here, and there are so many threads I rarely find what I'm looking for. Mind is you this is after searching through over 10 pages of threads, this site is not small. So I can see why there are a lot of repeat questions. I don't understand why it is so hard to just answer them nicely. I have taught martial arts, I also work as a Jr. High leader at the Church I go to... All I do is answer the same questions over and over again, so maybe it just doesn't make sense to me for that reason.

You're almost there. Seriously, you're within spitting distance of getting my point. Now, ask yourself... WHY is it so hard to find answers on this board? Why are there so many threads to have to sift through? Read what I wrote just two pages back on this same thread, about how noobs treat the forums as a chat-room.

Do you see? Do you get it now? It's not all about individual respect; it's the fact that every time they ask the same questions over and over again, it clutters the forum up even further, making it more difficult for not just veterans but beginners especially to find the answers they need. Your analogy of working as a greeter at a church would only be apt if the questions that people peppered you with over and over again actually piled up around the door, making it difficult for anyone to get in. The forums wouldn't be littered with repeat questions IF noobs took the time to properly read, rather than jumping on and throwing out a worn-out question they EXPECT an answer to. Do you get it? If I'm looking for one particular answer regarding resistors on accent LEDs, I don't want to have to wade through 1,500 threads all telling noobs they don't need a resistor for the main LED on a PC. Now noobs aren't just wasting the time of veterans by refusing to do research, they're wasting my time (and the time of anyone half-way responsible) as well.

THIS is why reading is encouraged, and noobs who show no inclination towards even trying to do so are not looked well upon by others here (though it's still a far cry from saying they're "mistreated" or "attacked". The restraint shown here is astounding, in my opinion). Like psab keel said before me, suggesting someone do a bit of research is hardly an attack. If you feel that that someone telling you to read a bit more is being mean, then friend... you've got bigger problems in life than not getting a saber to work right.

As for losing business? Personally, I think I'd be more afraid of potential builders looking at a cluttered mess of a forum, thinking "There is no way I could build something like that. Oh well..." and leaving, than I would be over losing the long-term business of someone without the attention span necessary to read a single page worth of directions, or even take the time to read the descriptions of items in the store. I'm sorry if it's harsh to say, but if a customer is too stupid to figure out what a blade retention screw is used for, then they won't be exactly be wiring up any Petit Croutons anytime soon.

(Side note of no relevance really to the main topic at hand: actually, George Lucas would love nothing more than to shut down the fan prop sites. However, so long as businesses don't use trademarked terms [e.g. Star Wars, lightsaber, etc...] he can't do a thing about it. Ever notice that's why Parks Sabers doesn't have names attached to clearly identifiable movie replica sabers? That's also why this is The Custom SABER Shop, not The Custom Lightsaber Shop. Go talk with some of the older 501st guys about the headaches they've gotten from Lucas over the years trying to shut down anyone who built Stormtrooper armor to sell; they've borne the brunt of Lucas's legal department more than anyone else for a long time.)

[ARKM]

I think some of you are missing a couple of points.

1. When a person asks a question that has already been answered in several other threads by making a new thread for their question, the damage has already been done. The redundant thread has already been created. Therefore no matter how you reply to the "noob" or whether or not you reply at all is irrelevant. The thread is now there and will always be there. People are gonna reply in different ways but nothing will stop that thread from being there and being the clutter that it is. You might want to keep that in mind when choosing how to reply to it.

2. When you reply to a "noob" question, there are different ways to go about it. In fact there are several different ways to say the same exact thing and some of those ways can be rude and/or insulting where other ways can be polite and constructive.

I have seen rude, insulting, polite and contructive replies to questions here and on other forums. Being rude or insulting is not helpful, it's "bashing" and is basically a way for the person who is doing said bashing, to vent his/her frustration on the "noob" in question. If you are that frustrated with the question being asked that the only reply you can give is rude or insulting, how about not replying at all? It doesn't matter if I know the answer and am not a participant in the thread, when people are rude and insulting to people just asking questions, it upsets me. There's really no call for it and it will get you nowhere even though you may think otherwise. If one is compelled to reply, all one has to do, in a polite/constructive way, is explain to the person who asked the question that they need to read the stickies and use the Search function. That's it. You don't even have to spoon feed them any links. Just be nice about how you go about replying to the question. It's really not that hard. If you are upset at the noobness or lazyness of the question, cuss them out, out loud or in your head and then reply nicely, lol.

[Invisas1979]

Funny how life is swings and roundabouts.

I remember this thread when I was new to the forum and felt like I feel now. Being talked to in a way which seems like you're being talked down to is not nice; that said after reading the amount of threads which begin, I've searched but I can't find, help please, I'm a newb/noob etc etc etc I understand why people get annoyed.

I also understand why people with Grand Master blah blah blah or Darth whatever are not welcomed as avidly as they might be otherwise; especially when it's backed up by "can someone help me find a 3w led in the shop, i've searched everywhere on the forum" and doh, it's in the shop not the forum, sorry...... you get my point.

As for bashing, I was bashed a lot at school, verbally physically and mentally. It made me who I am today, without it I hate to think how I might have turned out. I'd probably cry if anyone ever had a go at me, be that verbally or physically. Personally if you ask a question which you can find the answers to, it's out of sheer laziness and there is nothing worse for someone who has slogged his guts out to create a thread which might give you that information. So suck it up and stop being so lazy.

After being on this site for a few years, I've asked a stupid question or three and I learnt from the answers, even if I did get the hump with some of the answers.

I don't look at this site as often as I used to but I can tell you this, it seems that new threads are started more often which cover old ground. That bores me to death so I stop looking.

I see less and less fresh ideas, new sabers and designs than I did a year ago. Is this the economic climate or are people posting less; if so why?

I have done some saber making and consider myself very much a noob even if I'm not new to the forum. I understand why the olde guard and other saber smiths get the hump, it's because they've forgotten more about making sabers than most of us know and they deserve some respect for that.

In regards to being a Jedi or Sith, if you wanna be one or act out a role fair play, join the Rebel Legion or 501st and help out. But this forum is about sabers and everything involved in designing them and making them. I wanna hear more about that.

Everyone has an ego, there are those who keep it in check, those who like to have their ego's massaged and those who simply let theirs run riot. The last ones are the ones who like starting inflamatory conversation and they don't last long around here.

Get talking about sabers, otherwise "move along, there's nothing to see here"

[Lucien Kane]

Believe it or not I do understand why people who have been doing this would get irritated with the same old questions over and over again. Once again, I was a Marine, so I went through the same cycle of getting new guys and having to teach them the same thing over and over again. I did it though, and no the questions don't pile up as they do on a forum, but even so. I wanted to know how well a covertec clip stays on your belt through rigorous activity, because I carry my saber on a daily basis, and I ride a motorcycle and I work with Jr. High kids, so the last thing I want is X saber flying off my belt either while running or while riding my bike. I searched through ten pages and could not find a thread that answered my question. Now that is not to say there weren't a ton of threads about covertecs and to me that wasn't a bad thing. While looking through I found out a lot about covertecs that I didn't know. For instance I didn't know that Tim's covertec wheel would fit tightly only to sabers with a certain OD, I wouldn't have even known to ask those questions if they weren't covered in one of the covertec threads. Now is that so bad? that there are a variety of answers? I understand why people would get frustrated to an entitled brat coming on and asking questions, and I have seen that before, but even then I have seen entitled people handled in such a way that wasn't mean, and that showed them how to navigate the site in a manner that would be beneficial to all.

ARKM really hit the nail on the head here, so I don't have anything else to say on the matter. Everyone who has disagreed with my thoughts on the matter has done so in a mostly tactful way, and I do appreciate that.

[TuxedoCartman]

I think this poor horse has been beaten to death for the second time in three years... LOL. I am in agreement with Lucien on one thing at least: everybody here... despite a very, VERY touchy topic... has remained remarkably civil throughout the whole argument. And that is part of why I love this community so much. It wasn't rhetoric earlier, when I said this was perhaps the most civil and well-behaved forum I've ever visited.

I have just one thing I'd like to address before signing off on this topic for good...


I don't look at this site as often as I used to but I can tell you this, it seems that new threads are started more often which cover old ground. That bores me to death so I stop looking.

THIS is my biggest fear for this site, and probably why I was arguing as heatedly as I was in this discussion. I'm new to this hobby (very new) and don't want to miss out on learning from and sharing with some truly great craftsmen, who no longer come around because they are either bored, or annoyed, or unappreciated, or just frustrated with the overall atmosphere anymore. I've not been on this board long, but just reading back through threads, it does seem like there are fewer useful posts, and more and more... well, clutter, for lack of a better word... these days. I've seen it happen on other forums, and it would kill me to see it here.

With that said, may the force be with us all. :)

[psab keel]

Well, I am so happy to see that everyone has really kept their cool given the sensitive nature of the topic at hand.

Lucien, if more newcomers show the kind of patience that you have to listen to us old timers we'll all do just fine. And if I didn't say so before, I'm glad you could join us here! : )

As for not posting as much lately (at least in my case) it has more to do with a busy schedule and the fact that given my finances I haven't been able to build sabers in a long time. I finally also have space now to build so hopefully that will be changing soon!

I think I've said just about all I can without repeating myself. Get building! : )

[FenderBender]

I will say, that a LOT of the "Old Guarde" doesn't come around very much for that exact reason. Most of us get tired of seeing the same old "what's a blade holder for" or "I have a new idea for the black blade, someone try it and let me know" threads. We've all devoted lots of time in creating threads that are 'stickyed' for beginners to read through and get the basic info and sometimes advanced info they need. I don't know where the "heat" is coming from as most of us just don't reply anymore. That's kinda sad, I got my feet wet here and always thought of this place as "home". Now, I log on, read a bit and sign off. If I see someone who truly shows that they've done their homework, and they need help or advice or heck just encouragement, I stop and give it. It's not about protection of my business or secrets or whatever, honestly, I have more business than I can handle and that's the case for most of us. I have been trying to give business away for the last 6 months. I can't even get to all my emails as we get 30-50 a day. Why would I try and keep people out of the saber market at that point? We need more, quality smiths, doing this for people, not the other way around. What I find, is that most of the people who complain about how they're treated, spend most of their time in the chatbox, haven't built a single thing, and most haven't even ordered anything yet. But....they waste tons of time playing grabass in the chatbox, starting the useless threads listed above, and generally don't contribute to the site, community, or the progression of the hobby. I have only ever "had it out" with one member, and when I think back on it I ask myself if I would do it again and my answer is "twice as hard", the little bastard deserved it. I know it's pretty much the same for my compatriots, there isn't a campaign out there to harass noobs.

[TuxedoCartman]

Well, FenderBender, I can't speak for anyone else here, but personally I've greatly appreciated your contributions and help on this forum, especially the spoon-feeding you provided on the LED Engin thread.

Thank you!

[Invisas1979]

Believe it or not I do understand why people who have been doing this would get irritated with the same old questions over and over again. Once again, I was a Marine, so I went through the same cycle of getting new guys and having to teach them the same thing over and over again. I did it though, and no the questions don't pile up as they do on a forum, but even so. I wanted to know how well a covertec clip stays on your belt through rigorous activity, because I carry my saber on a daily basis, and I ride a motorcycle and I work with Jr. High kids, so the last thing I want is X saber flying off my belt either while running or while riding my bike. I searched through ten pages and could not find a thread that answered my question. Now that is not to say there weren't a ton of threads about covertecs and to me that wasn't a bad thing. While looking through I found out a lot about covertecs that I didn't know. For instance I didn't know that Tim's covertec wheel would fit tightly only to sabers with a certain OD, I wouldn't have even known to ask those questions if they weren't covered in one of the covertec threads. Now is that so bad? that there are a variety of answers? I understand why people would get frustrated to an entitled brat coming on and asking questions, and I have seen that before, but even then I have seen entitled people handled in such a way that wasn't mean, and that showed them how to navigate the site in a manner that would be beneficial to all.

ARKM really hit the nail on the head here, so I don't have anything else to say on the matter. Everyone who has disagreed with my thoughts on the matter has done so in a mostly tactful way, and I do appreciate that.

Yeah you tought them the same thing over and over again because they could not just read and learn what they needed to know and because what they might learn could mean a big difference when in a combat situation.

A cover tec clip is more a costuming query, in the chat box you could have asked Jo-Lo and she'd have been happy to advise, contrary to popular belief she doesn't bite ;-0. They stay on very well providing the belt is decent. Ideally the belt needs to be thin enough that the clip sits over it completely. Jedi belts have a thin strip in the middle which is perfect for the clip.

That said the rigors of riding a bike and having the saber sway may cause the clip to slip, but having never rode a bike with my saber on I can't say for sure.

ARKM is right in that a negative reply is not the way to go and I would not personally do that and I'm sorry if he feels annoyed by it. Can't say more than that really.



I will say, that a LOT of the "Old Guarde" doesn't come around very much for that exact reason. Most of us get tired of seeing the same old "what's a blade holder for" or "I have a new idea for the black blade, someone try it and let me know" threads. We've all devoted lots of time in creating threads that are 'stickyed' for beginners to read through and get the basic info and sometimes advanced info they need. I don't know where the "heat" is coming from as most of us just don't reply anymore. That's kinda sad, I got my feet wet here and always thought of this place as "home". Now, I log on, read a bit and sign off. If I see someone who truly shows that they've done their homework, and they need help or advice or heck just encouragement, I stop and give it. It's not about protection of my business or secrets or whatever, honestly, I have more business than I can handle and that's the case for most of us. I have been trying to give business away for the last 6 months. I can't even get to all my emails as we get 30-50 a day. Why would I try and keep people out of the saber market at that point? We need more, quality smiths, doing this for people, not the other way around. What I find, is that most of the people who complain about how they're treated, spend most of their time in the chatbox, haven't built a single thing, and most haven't even ordered anything yet. But....they waste tons of time playing grabass in the chatbox, starting the useless threads listed above, and generally don't contribute to the site, community, or the progression of the hobby. I have only ever "had it out" with one member, and when I think back on it I ask myself if I would do it again and my answer is "twice as hard", the little bastard deserved it. I know it's pretty much the same for my compatriots, there isn't a campaign out there to harass noobs.

Now now Fender, we all get that argument, we'll leave that in the past.

As for not coming here so much, that's a shame for sure. And I hope this makes the point of the reason people like me dislike the unnecessary threads.

As an edit, this is a fairly negative thread, maybe it should be locked???

[beggarsoutpost]

I think some of you are missing a couple of points.

I have seen rude, insulting, polite and contructive replies to questions here and on other forums. Being rude or insulting is not helpful, it's "bashing" and is basically a way for the person who is doing said bashing, to vent his/her frustration on the "noob" in question. If you are that frustrated with the question being asked that the only reply you can give is rude or insulting, how about not replying at all? It doesn't matter if I know the answer and am not a participant in the thread, when people are rude and insulting to people just asking questions, it upsets me. There's really no call for it and it will get you nowhere even though you may think otherwise. If one is compelled to reply, all one has to do, in a polite/constructive way, is explain to the person who asked the question that they need to read the stickies and use the Search function. That's it. You don't even have to spoon feed them any links. Just be nice about how you go about replying to the question. It's really not that hard. If you are upset at the noobness or lazyness of the question, cuss them out, out loud or in your head and then reply nicely, lol.

Yep... That's pretty much why I don't post here much... To many long winded non-responses from members who could just direct to a link or not say anything... If your really bugged by a noobish question maybe you need to take a look at yourself before you don't answer the question with a 6 paragraph post...

I'd really have to ask why as I've been here longer then most of you and it never bothers me... never... my first question when I found this place... What's inside a lightsaber?... what are the guts that I need to build one?... I had no idea what was in them and I did not know to look or even how to look... and I was not responded to or held out as an example of what not to do when you have a question... which is probably why I'm still around...

Through out my whole life I've been told by more then one teacher or mentor that no question is a bad question... except I guess if your signed on to the TCSS forum in that case you need to learn what your doing before you ask a question.... it's not very nice and it does not help the confidence you need in yourself for learning something new... I'm here everyday and I'm never bogged down by reading all the useless threads started by all the new members who don't know anything... I either don't read them or I don't respond to them... Actually being annoyed by them never happens and if it does for you maybe you need to step away....................

[TuxedoCartman]

Yes, BOP, but when you joined the forum it was, what... 2 years old? I imagine there weren't a lot of readily available answers at that time.

But let me thank you for taking the time to illustrate that there is not much correlation between how long someone's been on the boards, and noob behavior. Truly remarkable the way you managed to kick the hornet's nest after all the bickering had died down, by complaining about people's complaints(without, it seems, actually addressing the complaints in question). An impressive bit of argumentative yoga if I ever saw one.

Bravo, good sir; you are a shining example to us all.

I keep hearing the same advice that if a noob question bothers us, we should ignore it. So let me ask you, why then shouldn't that same advice apply to those complaining about being told to go read more? If someone offers you constructive advice that involves some effort on your part, and this offends you... then perhaps you should be the one to step away, no?

Yeah, I second Invisas's suggestion. Shut this down. (Five paragraphs, including this one. New personal best).

[psab keel]

Yeah I agree it's time to lock this thread up. It's starting to get redundant.

[Lucien Kane]

Yeah I agree it's time to lock this thread up. It's starting to get redundant.

lol at least we all agree on at least one thing! :D

[beggarsoutpost]

Yes, BOP, but when you joined the forum it was, what... 2 years old? I imagine there weren't a lot of readily available answers at that time.

But let me thank you for taking the time to illustrate that there is not much correlation between how long someone's been on the boards, and noob behavior. Truly remarkable the way you managed to kick the hornet's nest after all the bickering had died down, by complaining about people's complaints(without, it seems, actually addressing the complaints in question). An impressive bit of argumentative yoga if I ever saw one.

Bravo, good sir; you are a shining example to us all.

I keep hearing the same advice that if a noob question bothers us, we should ignore it. So let me ask you, why then shouldn't that same advice apply to those complaining about being told to go read more? If someone offers you constructive advice that involves some effort on your part, and this offends you... then perhaps you should be the one to step away, no?

Yeah, I second Invisas's suggestion. Shut this down. (Five paragraphs, including this one. New personal best).Funny another couple paragraphs of exactly what I was talking about... ARKM's right you guys totally miss the point but that's probably on purpose...

[TuxedoCartman]

No, BOP, I can't miss the point when you never made one in the first place. My criticisms of your last post stand.

[beggarsoutpost]

No, BOP, I can't miss the point when you never made one in the first place. My criticisms of your last post stand.no you make my point excatly... Rude snarky and generally unhelpful....

[Onli-Won Kanomi]

Since I started this thread and it was questioned above why I did so I wish to clarify that it was NOT intended to "bash" those new to TCSS or the saber hobby. It has never been my intention to drive any new members away from Strydur's business by being rude to them and I hope I have never done so. I have tried to be helpful and encouraging to new saber hobbyists and have at times even 'spoon fed' those who have asked questions, though I also understand the 'searching through clutter factor' makes it inadvisable to always do so when its the "same old question for the thousandth time". It was also NOT my intention for this thread to become a 'flame war'.

I think we all want new builders to SUCCEED in this hobby we love. We want TCSS forums and store to thrive and our hobby to keep growing stronger with new blood.

I will add what I hope will be a piece of helpful advice to new members that may lessen their chance of being 'noob flamed';

The more clearly FOCUSED and SPECIFIC you make any question[s] the less likely it will be a "same old question for the thousandth time" and the better it is likely to be received by the 'old guard'. If you FIRST make an honest effort to find your answer among the VAST base of knowledge on this DIY forum by reading the sticky posts, using the search function and 'doing your homework' the more likely you will find what information you need already here - and if not the more focused, specific, well defined, easily answered and thus more likely to be well received your new questions will be.

Remember your Focus determines your Destiny eh? That is no less true of posts here than anywhere else in life.

Good Luck with your builds and MTFBWY.

[TuxedoCartman]

no you make my point excatly... Rude snarky and generally unhelpful....

Unhelpful? BOP, I explained in as much detail as possible why people get frustrated with noob behavior on this forum. What followed was a spirited but not unfriendly discussion arguing points back and forth, till the principal people involved in the most recent rounds decided we'd reached an impasse, and decided to end things on friendly terms.

YOU come along and contribute nothing to the conversation. You did NOT address any of the points anybody made (especially mine), and made no attempts at arguing your views of things beyond, "Pfff... you're all being mean to newbs." That wasn't your words, but it was certainly your attitude. The matter was settled, and yet you provoked an argument, then singled me out when I called you on it. Have I noob bashed once on this forum? No I hadn't... not till you. Yeah, you've been registered on this site for five years; but you still boast of your ignorance, and apparently have a serious double-standard when it comes to how people should be treated on this board. In short... you're a noob! At least a lot of the others on here can claim ignorance of etiquette, forum rules, and knowledge due to inexperience... what's your excuse?

And you think I'M rude, snarky, and unhelpful?

[acerocket]

Looks at join date - Hmmm. It says I've been around these parts since April 2006. Yes, I have a low post count - check all the other saber forums, and you will see I am not a prolific poster by any means. But I have seen a lot in my time.

For us 'olde guard' type, there is no winning in this situation. We have seen the same questions asked over and over. If we respond and tell the forum member do do some searching, we are branded as stuck up a-holes who don't want to help the new people. If we ignore the question, we get branded as stuck up a-holes who don't want to help the new people. If we answer the question, our inbox gets flooded with 100 new questions from said new member expecting us to answer every one of them - and when we suggest the answers are there and they should do some searching, we are branded as stuck up a-holes who don't want to help the new people.

I am sorry to say that I have been guilty of all three methods of answereing to a new member's question. I used to try and answer the questions - but then I grew tired of answering the posted question only to find a 3 page long PM in my inbox the next morning asking me to spell out step by step everything needed to build a saber. So I started telling people to use search, that's what it's for and the answers are on the forum. But that only bought me grief as I was branded a 'noob hater'. So I just stopped answering questions for the most part. Sure, I look like a stuck up snob trying to hoard all the secrets of the saber world to keep them to myself. But I don't get angry replies to my lack of a response.

I can understand how a new member can come to a forum like this and be instantly overwhelmed - there is a lot of information here. And it can be difficult to navigate the hundreds upon hundreds of threads spread out over 7 years to find that nugget of information they seek. But you have to remember one thing - we established members are not here on this forum to answer every question a new member might pose. We enjoy visiting this forum to read what our peers are doing, post our new builds and have some good times with our online friends. If we decide to answer questions, then that's a bonus to a member seeking an answer. More the most part, the information is there. If you honestly try to find it and can't, you will stand a much better chance of having your thread replied to when you ask for help. If you post that you want to know the resisitor for a red P4 with a 7.2V pack and you used the search engine and queried red led, then you can't expect to be spoonfed. (Oh and for the record, the store has a resistor calculator here: http://www.thecustomsabershop.com/wiringbuilder/wiring.aspx) (oh and as an added bonus - to answer the question 'what is a blade holder and do I need one' - a blade holder will hold your blade and if you want a blade to be held, then you need one).

Edit - darn enter key

Anyways, don't take what I say too personally, I was just trying to bring a little levity to the conversation.

[Forgetful Jedi Knight]

Enough already! This is one reason why many "elder members" don't visit or post on the forums (here or FX) all that often anymore. Many things tend to degenerate into pointless bickering. Another reason is the sense of "entitlement" that new people tend to come in with. Those are just 2 of the several reasons, but there are more. Failure to use the search button is a third biggie.

Trust me, we have seen a lot through the years.

Edit: FJK High-fives Acerocket

[Ty_Bomber]

All this... Just to ask someone to check the date before suddenly necroposting... Sorry everyone, my bad.