Legacy era renders Luke's life meaningless (spoilers, maybe) [Archive]

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Obi-Ben

03-11-2009, 02:10 PM

I haven't read a Star Wars book in quite some time. I thought it was as much of a risk to include the books in official canon as it is a benefit. Like the force, there is a dark side, which is bad writing. I can accept Chewie dying and characters turning to the dark side and back, but what I'm reading on Wookiepedia really turns me off the entire expanded universe. Here's a snippet of what it says:

He becomes the Dark Lord of the Sith, Darth Caedus and brings peace to the galaxy, uniting everyone against him. After his death, the Alliance is split in two, and the Empire takes over once again.

Nearly one hundred years later, a new Sith Order and a new Galactic Empire dominate the Galaxy. Cade Skywalker, the last remaining heir to the Skywalker legacy, may be the only one who can save the Jedi Order.

So what's the freaking point of the rebellion, Luke's life or Vader's sacrifice? The Sith aren't gone, in fact they are stronger than ever, and the Empire just comes back. I know everything can't be lollypops and flowers forever, but com-on, just a hundred years after ROTJ, the entire galaxy is in the crap hole again? It's like anything that ever happened in the movies or the books up to that point is meaningless.

Darth_DevilGuy

03-11-2009, 03:01 PM

sigh...

so much to explain.

OK, first off, the legacy of the force books take place around 40 ABY the legacy comics are about 130 ABY so it's a long time after the rebellion, the galaxy didn't become set in stone after the new republic was created, everything keeps shifting.

Nightwing

03-11-2009, 06:25 PM

It's like anything that ever happened in the movies or the books up to that point is meaningless.Not really. The Jedi are mostly in hiding in the Legacy era, not completely wiped out like they were in the Trilogy.
Also, the Empire itself is split in two, with the Sith lords controlling the vast majority of it and a morally-gray (yet possibly good) Emperor leading a smaller empire with his own Imperial Knights, who have obviously learned something from the Jedi order and the Galactic Alliance.

Also, Luke repeatedly appears in spirit form to Cade, acting as an Obi-wan-style mentor and guide.

The important thing to remember is that the Star Wars galaxy is almost always at war. If it's not, then something's wrong.

Luke's actions still mattered because he created the New Jedi Order, allowing for there to be a "good" side in the Legacy era. And like I said, he still acts as a spirit in the Legacy timeline as well.

Hasid Lafre

03-11-2009, 08:10 PM

I would like to mention that the Imperial knights are neither light or dark side, They beleave in only protecting there emperor. An emperor that is neither the good or the bad that we have seen. He is kinda like sitting back waiting for the dust to settle and then bring forth whatever he wishes. But that's about as far as I got.

Remember that you cant take one snip it and bash the whole thing, you need to read it all.

Count Malik

03-11-2009, 09:12 PM

Swordlord

03-11-2009, 09:19 PM

chase

03-12-2009, 06:40 AM

Yeah. Read them. I like them almost more than any other SW story. I really don't think that Lukes life was meaningless, it just shows that no matter how good you do...bad things can always happen.

Obi-Ben

03-12-2009, 07:56 AM

I feel bad because the Star Wars universe can't catch a break. How about a few hundred years of peace for once?

The Other Jedi

03-12-2009, 08:08 AM

Does anyone know what the prophecy was that Mace spoke of; and how that played in the SW story in bringing peace and order to the gallaxy?

Nightwing

03-12-2009, 03:03 PM

Does anyone know what the prophecy was that Mace spoke of; and how that played in the SW story in bringing peace and order to the gallaxy?
That would be The Chosen One, AKA Anakin Skywalker. He brought balance to the Force by destroying the Sith in ROTJ.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Chosen_One

Note: "balance" does not mean a balance between Light and Dark, but rather an "ideal state" where the Force isn't being "poisoned" by the Sith's influence.

Obi-Ben

03-12-2009, 05:40 PM

That would be The Chosen One, AKA Anakin Skywalker. He brought balance to the Force by destroying the Sith in ROTJ.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Chosen_One

Note: "balance" does not mean a balance between Light and Dark, but rather an "ideal state" where the Force isn't being "poisoned" by the Sith's influence.

Well, with the return of the Sith in the late Legacy era, that means Anakin's role as the Chosen One was also pointless.

Crimsonjedi

03-12-2009, 07:18 PM

Luke and Anakin were not pointless, though I can see why you might feel that way. They fought back the darkness in their times, and did their parts to keep the universe safe. The universe is a living thing, though, ever evolving and ever changing. The battle between good and evil is eternal. It is now up to new Skywalker to continue the fight.

Nightwing

03-12-2009, 07:42 PM

Well, with the return of the Sith in the late Legacy era, that means Anakin's role as the Chosen One was also pointless.Technically those weren't "real" Sith, as the Sith line was ended with Palpatine & Vader.

Anakin still paved the way for Luke, who created the NJO.
The Jedi Order was really stagnant anyhow. I wrote this on my blog a few months ago:

It is my belief that by the time of The Phantom Menace (32 BBY), the Jedi order had become stagnant. They had been without a strong Dark Side enemy for a millennium, and were piling policies and personal limitations upon the "Jedi Code." In a sense, they were building up the Order more as a philosophical religion than an actual peacekeeping force.

Perhaps more important was the fact that they actually became a peacekeeping force. In previous time periods, the Jedi had been soldiers in war. It was in these times--such as the Sith War (approx. 4000 BBY, chronicled in Knights of the Old Republic) and the Yuuzhan Vong War (25-29 ABY)--that the Jedi Order did not have policies prohibiting romantic attachments. Luke Skywalker married Mara Jade in full knowledge of the Old Republic Jedi Order's stance on the issue. Luke remarked that--although he didn't understand how or why--being with Mara felt "right." Considering that Luke was the first of the Jedi after the Force had been brought back into balance--and the fact that he was the catalyst for the redemption of the Chosen One and the end of the Sith--his opinion should mean quite a bit.

In the period of time before the Clone Wars, the Jedi had become stale. With no great conflict to keep them tethered to the natural world, they simply lost touch with reality, becoming more ethereal philosophers than actual warriors. This is notable because the Jedi need to be warriors. After all, they can't keep the peace without fighting for it.
This lack of "fight" may be the problem. Obi-Wan states in Revenge of the Sith that "only a Sith deals in absolutes." This may or may not mean that Jedi do not believe in absolutes (which does not seem to be true, as they often speak of an absolute light and dark), but it most definitely means that they do not always act in absolutes. This may simply mean that they have mercy, and do not always deal out harsh punishment, but it is more likely that they do not actually have any concrete concepts for actions to be taken.

In essence, the Jedi had become lost in their own rampant idealism and religion, losing their common sense. It was only after the New Jedi Order began that the true Jedi way was accepted. Qui-Gon Jinn was truly the only "true" Jedi Knight seen in the Star Wars prequels, with the possible exception of pre-Dark Side Anakin.

Of course, the truth is that the KOTOR and NJO eras were filled with war and darkside conversions. Does that mean that the Jedi of the prequel films were correct in their overly restrictive philosophy? After all, if not for the Sith secretly lying in wait for a thousand years, perhaps the Jedi would not have fallen; it's not as if too many Jedi were actually turning to the Dark Side during that time.

However, it's my belief that the Star Wars galaxy simply must be at war. History in the Star Wars universe is cyclical; a neverending loop of light and dark struggling against one another. If the stars aren't at war, something's wrong. (then they'd have to rename the franchise. O_o )

Obi-Ben

03-13-2009, 09:07 AM

Technically those weren't "real" Sith, as the Sith line was ended with Palpatine & Vader.

Good essay. But your above comment reminds me of "Confused Matthew"s reviews of the prequel films on YouTube. He points out that none of the films ever explain what a Sith actually is. They are the main villians in ALL the Star Wars films, yet no time was ever used to actually tell the viewer what they are. I'm sure the books and comics go into that detail, but it's not a minor detail and should be explained for the majority of people who only see the films.

Sairon

03-13-2009, 09:24 AM

Technically real sith were the original species from Korriban and Ziost, though after much interbreading from darkjedi their race died out.

Obi-Ben

03-13-2009, 09:59 AM

Technically real sith were the original species from Korriban and Ziost, though after much interbreading from darkjedi their race died out.

Then what was Palpatine and his apprentices?

Sairon

03-13-2009, 10:01 AM

Sith was just a title.

Obi-Ben

03-13-2009, 10:15 AM

Sith was just a title.
Why are there only two? Aren't there lots of Sith at any given time?

Sairon

03-13-2009, 10:17 AM

Obi-Ben

03-13-2009, 10:41 AM

Darth Bane created the rule of two, one master one apprentice. this was because in the sith war there where many sith lords and they never new who was the main leader and their was many fights over that, so Bane made the rule so it was easeir to control their cult.

Ok, I just finished reading several Wookiepedia articles on the Sith, and though they answered some of my questions, I still don't understand why the Sith are so much more powerful than the Jedi. Or are they? Why is there so much trouble with Sith if there are only two of them?

Sairon

03-13-2009, 10:43 AM

Well, it depends a sith can be wimpy and some can be strong. And the reason there is only two "masters" is because everyone will want to be in power, if there are only two then it is easier to control.

chase

03-13-2009, 10:50 AM

Neither the dark side or the light side is stronger than the other. The reason some people believe that the dark side is stronger, is because it's easier to aquire power through it. It's not which side of the Force one uses, it's how strong that one person is.

I think another reason some think Sith are stronger than Jedi is because the Jedi usually don't take on the galaxy and try to destroy it. Jedi have occupations...some are warriors, some are diplomats, some are librarians. Usually the Sith just have one want...to destroy. With that want to destroy, they find many different ways to do it, weather it be by force or taking over a whole government and using it as they see fit.

That's my 4 cents.

Titoshi

03-13-2009, 02:15 PM

yeah! Plus being a sith makes you all wrinkly and ashen if you abuse the power, which sith normally do. Another reason the sith seem so much more powerful is that that have no real code of ethics and are not trying to fit into polite society. And as was stated earlier, Jedi seem weakened due to all the bureaucracy of being a stagnant organization/religion. It has happened with our own societies and it is well reflected in the star wars universe, which actually helps to make it relative and understandable to most readers.

cardcollector

03-13-2009, 04:06 PM

Obi-Wan states in Revenge of the Sith that "only a Sith deals in absolutes." This may or may not mean that Jedi do not believe in absolutes (which does not seem to be true, as they often speak of an absolute light and dark), but it most definitely means that they do not always act in absolutes. O_o )

If Jedi did believe there were no absolutes that's problematic...
"no absolutes"- that's an absolute!!:cool:

As for the Jedi and Sith Idea...
I believe they use the same force Sith use it to destroy and Jedi use it to follow "The code".
The Force is neutral- it the way the user chooses to wield it.

Obi-Ben

03-13-2009, 04:55 PM

Hasid Lafre

03-13-2009, 05:11 PM

But the true sith line died with palpy, the teachings that were passed down since the rule of two, The rest of the "sith" are nothing more than people coming along trying to pick up the pieces and make there place as supreme bad***.

Remember in GL eyes the story ended and everything else after is just canon fodder.
Think of it like this Anikin brought balance to the force like the many "ones" in the matrix story.

It happens over and over again till someone comes along and puts a stop to it. Now that's that there's no more to it, In the case of starwars its a franchise, war will always be around, there will always be jedi that will be exiled or what have you to start up another sith following.

In the old CNCW dooku explained to ventress about the darkside/darkjedi thing, But remember it was a exiled jedi that started the "sith as we know them" in the first place.

So with that we start the catch 22 cycle over and over again, All it takes is one jedi student to stray from the teachings of the jedi for knowledge and defence.

The "sith" want power and the exiled/darkjedi that come along claiming to be sith are trying to gain that same power but never truly achieve the power.

Nightwing

03-13-2009, 08:19 PM

Anakin didn't really bring balance to the force if the Sith just come back after a few decades. Or is the new Sith Empire different somehow? What makes a Sith better than just a regular dark side user like Ventress?
There are multiple "kinds" of Sith.

The original Sith were an actual species that lived on Korriban.

Eventually "Sith" became the name for the Dark Jedi army that was growing during the KOTOR era.

The Sith from the films are a very specific group. They're a cult, basically. They were started with Darth Bane, who introduced the Rule of Two. They continued on in secret until the time of The Phantom Menace, where their plan went into full effect. Their greatest threat was secrecy, the Jedi had no way of directly combating them as they had in the past.
They were technically ended with Palpatine, but others like Caedus and Krayt used old Sith knowledge to "remake" the Sith. You can make your own judgments as to whether or not they actually "count" as Sith, however.

Jase Kala Maris

04-05-2009, 06:50 PM

Hey! Where are all the Sith on these boards to explain things...

Prolly to busy ploting to post :roll:

Darth Bane- Rule of Two... Great books I think explain so much about the dark side, I'm thinking of turning... If you wanna know about the Sith you MUST read those two books.

I think Darth Bane refers to Revan as the one who made sure to make a Sith Holocron up with the rule of two... um rules...sorry. (Finds a Sith Holocron Explaining it in that Temple under where the Forge Space Station was floating if I remember corectly) imagine finding a Revan Sith Holocron!!!

Jacen Solo Turning to the Dark Side really pissed me off I have to say. IMO he had so much potential and they went the wrong way with it. He could have started a whole new Neutral Side Jedi (and Ben Skywalker would have followed him great story line missed there...) which is where I thought Luke Skywalker was going for a while. I mean I thought it was soooooo clear that was where they (Luke) were going! Balance... Chosen One.... Bring balance to the force he recreated the Jedi from scratch all over again! He could have done anything! IMO the Force needs balance good and bad not just one or the other... Jacen Solo was a chance at that balance also... they messed that up.

Also the Darth Bane books kinda make me think that Darth Bane was the one who put the Sith back on Rule of two path that leads directly to Darth Sidious... I'm only makeing a guess until the new book comes out. But last I read he was very concerned with makeing Sith Holocrons VERY. I would think that if it was that important to him (in the books) he would pass that importance to his apprentices and so on and so on. With only Two there is was to high a chance the Jedi could get lucky and kill them both... there has to be many more Sith Holocrons around, more then the jedi dream. Just to important to take a risk loosing all that knowledge.

I know what some of you are thinking about hording power and knowledge but they must have taught there apprentices all they knew. At a slow pace of course. (ever play force unleashed?) Darth Sidious GAVE Vader the bring you back to life knowledge! Never thought he ment that!

I've only read maybe 30+ books and I think there is over a hundred now! So I dont know everything and I'm sure some of my opinions may get me flamed but hey couldn't keep my 2cents to myself...

I just got to the part were Jacen kills Mara... and I think the way he did it was fraking lame... I Read 7 books in the series for him to kill her with a god darn ***** (didn't want to spoil it) I was so mad, didn't read the last book...

lol.

EDIT AND P.S.

I think Light Jedi or Sith are "religion or philosophy" anyone can learn it and be a real SITH. you don't have to be born it, or into it. Your not born a Jedi.... That make sense?

Thaxos

04-05-2009, 07:09 PM

With only Two there is was to high a chance the Jedi could get lucky and kill them both... there has to be many more Sith Holocrons around, more then the jedi dream. Just to important to take a risk loosing all that knowledge.

Maybe only two Sith, but there is no limit on users of the Force that tap into the dark side... For example, Dooku and Ventress! Hmm, but Sidious is Dooku's master, three of them? I think not!

Nightwing

04-05-2009, 09:33 PM

Also the Darth Bane books kinda make me think that Darth Bane was the one who put the Sith back on Rule of two path that leads directly to Darth Sidious...
Yeah, that was confirmed way back in 1999 with the novelization of The Phantom Menace.

Hasid Lafre

04-06-2009, 12:07 AM

3 may be but one is a pawn, you would know this if you seen the origional CNCW.

Look in TFU, 3 there are but one a pawn.

Barmic Rin

04-06-2009, 03:03 AM

Jacen/Caedus wasn't a true sith. He received little training from Vergere, who may or may not have been a Sith (she was full of half truths).
The rest of his training was received from force sensitive groups, though not necessarily sith, ie the Baran Do sages.

Darth Krayt however had already started his training on Korriban with ancient sith spirits and Holocrons before the Vong war, and continued his learning once he escaped the Vong.
He was a true sith. Okay, he scrapped the Rule of Two, but there had been sith in numbers long before Banes rule, so it was a re-writing, like the Rule of two itself.

Hasid's theory using the Matrix trilogy is how I see it. Can anyone name a war that ended in total peace for all eternity afterwards?

Ventress wasn't a sith, neither were any of the other dark jedi that Dooku used (Skorr, Komari Vosa, Sora Bulq, etc.)

Rhyen Skytracker

04-06-2009, 04:55 AM

If balance was going to be brought to the force, shouldn't the good and evil be equal? Maybe that is how Anakin brought balance to the force by turning to the dark side.

JamoUp

04-06-2009, 05:07 AM

That is exactly correct. Balance is equal good and bad.

Barmic Rin

04-06-2009, 05:45 AM

Yep. 1000yrs of peace balanced out with 25yrs of terror & oppression.

The dark can't exist without the light, and the light needs darkness.

Nightwing

04-06-2009, 07:02 AM

Nooooooo!!!!! >_<

The prophecy of the Chosen One was an ancient Jedi legend that foretold the coming of a being who would restore balance to the Force.

The idea of balance of the Force, a central tenet of the Jedi Order, refers to the ideal state in which the Force exists in nature, i.e. as the light side. The presence of the dark side corrupts and destroys this natural balance, and the Jedi viewed it as their duty to restore it.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Chosen_One

JamoUp

04-06-2009, 08:15 AM

A Prophecy... That Misread, Could Have Been -Yoda

Nightwing

04-06-2009, 08:33 AM

-Yoda
That article is sourced as being from GL via The Mythology of Star Wars with George Lucas and Bill Moyers.

Rhyen Skytracker

04-06-2009, 08:47 AM

A true balance would have to be equal light and dark. Both of them use the force. So to be a true balance, they would have to be equal. I hate it too, with me being a Jedi Knight. But to keep good from being corupted, there must be evil for them to fight. Man, I just confused myself. LOL

Barmic Rin

04-06-2009, 08:50 AM

The light will always cast shadows....

VeggieJedi

04-09-2009, 05:12 AM

All it takes is one jedi student to stray from the teachings of the jedi for knowledge and defence.

The "sith" want power and the exiled/darkjedi that come along claiming to be sith are trying to gain that same power but never truly achieve the power.

True, Dessann in JK2 is a great examle of this, the NJO was doing pretty great until Dessann turned and tried his little rising.
Also of course a JEDI prophecy will say that balance means light over dark, and jedi are supposed to be fair...

Nightwing

04-09-2009, 02:40 PM

"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic, which is it's getting tired, it's old, it's getting corrupt.

There's the rise of the Sith, who are becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this we have Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic...

Then in the second film we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sort of the beginning of the end of the Republic. And it's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of Anger, Hatred, Sense of Loss, Possesiveness, Jealousy, and the other things he has to cope with.

And then we get to the 3rd film where he is seduced to the Dark Side..

Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings Balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

http://blogs.starwars.com/moosepoodo/17

Obviously GL wasn't counting on the EU to add more evil to the Galaxy, but this is technically what the prophesy means, according to the man who WROTE the movies.

Fiction:
The Force is out of Balance because of the number of Jedi vs. the number of Sith. The Force is balanced when good is perfectly balanced with evil, and therefore any larger number on either side cause it to wobble right off of it's cosmic nightstand.

Fact:
George Lucas himself has said that it's merely the presence of the Sith that cause the Force to be out of Balance. It has nothing to do with the number of "light side" vs. "dark side" forces. The Force, in it's natural state, is balanced and harmonious. The Sith affect the Force so drastically that the Dark Side permeates its entire fabric. By destroying the Sith, Balance is restored. In fact, his exact words were "getting rid of evil..."

Explanation:
Think of the Force as a river through a valley. It carves a natural path, and exists on its own accord, both serving and being served by the landscape around it. Think of the Jedi as tribe of aboriginal beings, indiginous to the landscape surrounding the Force. They draw on the waters of the Force for sustenance without disturbing its course. The Sith, on the other hand, you may consider as a Power company, come to the valley to harness the River of the Force for their own gain. They dam up the river, process its waters toward artificial ends, and upset the delicate ecological balance of the entire valley. As the River is darkened by the byproducts of the Sith, so is the world around it. Remove the Sith Power Plant, you allow the ecosystem to recover from it's effects.