Preferred Saber Combat

[cardcollector]

I know this isn't about saber building but I was curious as to what everyone's favorite method of fighting was, and if you had any tips you wanted to share.

I have been training with a double bladed saber for about a year now and can finally fight without killing myself. It took so much practice but now I am deadly:cool:! I still do kill myself evey now and then though and it is pretty embarrasing.

[Eco]

I like to use a reverse-grip whenever I can without breaking someone's nose, but for typical duels I use a two handed standard grip, like Soretsu.

[Novastar]

Video of this, request I must...
For from your peers, judged you may be...
Difference there is between during battle how feel you...
...and during battle how look you! :)

Seriously though... on another level, there is a huge difference between:

* "Play" sparring (little protection to the face, hands, etc., so people are by default... holding back)

* Combat sparring (pads and/or sufficient protection so that no one needs to worry about going 100%)

* Choreography

* Sport Fencing, Kendo, TKD, Karate, etc.

Not that any of these are > then or < then any one of the others... but just saying... comparing "play" sparring to to choreography wouldn't be congruent... so it's good to explain just what exactly is going on when you're doing whatever it is you're doing.

And therefore to my main point: video tells the story straight. :)

[Lord Preston]

I use Tràkata.

[Zero Unit]

I tend to use one hand a lot, very Makashi-styled. However, I do incorporate some disarming powerful blows into my style, using quick fluid spins to set the blade into position. I also switch to backhand frequently to mix it up and catch my opponent off guard with the blade coming in from an unorthodox angle. Now that I think about it, my Liberator's blade could use some shortening from 36" to 33" or 32" to balance it, since right now it is heavy and slow.

[Eco]

Video of this, request I must...
For from your peers, judged you may be...
Difference there is between during battle how feel you...
...and during battle how look you! :)

Seriously though... on another level, there is a huge difference between:

* "Play" sparring (little protection to the face, hands, etc., so people are by default... holding back)

* Combat sparring (pads and/or sufficient protection so that no one needs to worry about going 100%)

* Choreography

* Sport Fencing, Kendo, TKD, Karate, etc.

Not that any of these are > then or < then any one of the others... but just saying... comparing "play" sparring to to choreography wouldn't be congruent... so it's good to explain just what exactly is going on when you're doing whatever it is you're doing.

And therefore to my main point: video tells the story straight. :)

I haven't sparred with anyone with another saber, but those are mostly the styles I used when I used to Amtgard on a regular basis.

[Nightwing]

I use Djem-So with a bit of Shien thrown in.

[Ideal]

the saber i have now is a bit too heavy to use an inverted grip like i want, so right now i use a standard 2-hand grip until i can make another saber

[Onli-Won Kanomi]

Anything but Ataru...I'm not fit enough for all that acrobatic flippery.

I do however have tremendous [some people in my life think too much] Patience and am philosophically and religiously Pacifistic [but not wimpacifist] so find Soresu suits my temperament and Shii-Cho when I do get more assertive due to having better gross-motor skills than fine because of 'bad nerves' from old torture and injuries, and also being an 'old coot' with cardiopulmonary issues the low-energy-efficiency aspects of Makashi also has its appeal.

I'm southpaw and like my left strong hand on the rear of the hilt and my right weak hand as high on the saber as possible...thats the way I grew up holding my hockey stick and that well-worn motor-memory is too strong to waste effort fighting with. however I often find I will drop the strong hand and use one-handed with my 'weak' right hand because I am cross-dominant [left handed right eyed] so shoot right-handed so handling a 'weapon' [even a prop] right handed just seems more 'natural' to me...though I also switch it up and shift to a one handed left handed grip as I use with a tennis racket or hammer, especially for spinning...I'm a mass of contradictions yes I am lol.

...in other words my personal preferences are based on my personal philosophical, physiological, psychological, and medical conditions and other equipment/tool use skills and habits and your mileage almost certainly will vary due to your own unique reasons.

Thats why it is good there is more than one saber form eh?

[sekrogue1985]

I usually use a two handed style but can shift to single right or left. However I tend to rely on my whatever works method. It's the most unethical, dishonorable, and stupid style that one would ever seen use.

[JedimasterJSA]

I don't have much of a fighting style yet. I'm still in training. I do, however, want to lean towards Djem-So for single saber combat. I would like to actually learn a Jar'Kai/Djem-So mix. Unfortunately, The sabers I have right now are a little too heavy to use one-handed effectively. So right now, I am just practicing the forms very slowly one-handed, trading off hands. Trying to strengthen my arms a little more.

[Anavrin]

I'm developing my own style.

Because I'm a masochist like that, apparently.

[grayven]

I use "wave it around and hope I hit something". I was a quick study of this art.
:D

[Donnovan Sunrider]

I haven't sparred with anyone with another saber, but those are mostly the styles I used when I used to Amtgard on a regular basis.

Okay, spill it! Declare Park and Kingdom! :D

Lord Donnovan Sunrider
Founder of the Duchy of the Frost Lands (http://www.frostlands.net/)
under Kingdom of the Rising Winds
Squire to Sir Clu daBard of the Emerald Hills

[Hasid Lafre]

I tend to use one hand a lot, very Makashi-styled. However, I do incorporate some disarming powerful blows into my style, using quick fluid spins to set the blade into position. I also switch to backhand frequently to mix it up and catch my opponent off guard with the blade coming in from an unorthodox angle. Now that I think about it, my Liberator's blade could use some shortening from 36" to 33" or 32" to balance it, since right now it is heavy and slow.


A better idea would be to shorten it by half inch increments, you can take off but you cant take back.


Anything but Ataru...I'm not fit enough for all that acrobatic flippery.

Ataru dosent need acrobatics, yoda used it to make up for his small stature, I have never seen QGJ do acrobatics, ataru is basically aggression, always on the attack, strength and speed, Using the force to aid in there speed. But one could also say that the running and jumping also had to deal with CQC like maul showed to take down QGJ. One would say maul was a better for 4 user than QGJ.

As for why I say it dosent need acrobatics is cause we have only seen one example of acrobatics and that's yoda and they say the reason why WGJ died was cause he dident have space to do flips and ****, BULL!


As for me, I used to use for 5 alot, and not that wimpy Shien version the jedi temple would teach, Djem So, the version that dident teach blaster deflection.

But Iam going to be retraining myself for another style of combat for Jar'Kai, but that's a sub form of aratu and niman. I like nether of them style so Iam going to incorporate Djem So and have to re-learn djem so all over again, But what I know will help I just have to work on the fact that Iam using 2 sabers instead of one.

[cardcollector]

Great Responses! I use form II Makashi

Hasid Lafre answered this already but does anyones else regularly use two singles or a double blade instead of one single?:cool:

[Sairon]

I use my martials arts traing and mostly Makeshi, I'm still working on my Ataru as I'm not the best at flips right now.

[Zero Unit]

@Hasid Lafre: I found the balance point already, and it requires removing exactly 3" of the blade using an Ultra Mid. I am just not sure how good the sabre will look with only 31" visible. Physics necessitates the shortening of the blade from movie-length to allow for faster motions, and I'm not sure I want to do that. But hey, that's what my Corbin blade is for. :D

[Darth_DevilGuy]

I'm trying to work out a usable form of juyo right now, I'm already pretty decent with djem'so due to a little kendo years back, but I'm actually too aggressive, I find myself trying to kick and strike when dueling, I figure emulating a single bladed variant of maul's style will suit me best when I get myself down to fighting weight again.

[Novastar]

I use "wave it around and hope I hit something". I was a quick study of this art.
:Dhahahahah! Awesome Gravy. :P

Actually, in all seriousness, for those who actually study martial art... they probably would agree with me when I say that the "beginner" or the person who has NOT been "trained"... is *NOT* to be trifled with!!

Also--for those who do not know... I'm sorry, but--those ridiculous "saber forms" are grounded in about 10% reality and 90% fantasy. I mean all that jedi garbage like "Dajem Sow" or whatever they are all called. They were all made up WELL after the IV, V and VI films anyhow. Might have even been after EP I too. Not sure of that. But still 100% BS. Most especially a bunch of BS if it comes to taking one of the characters from the movie and attributing some singular "form" to that person. Ha. My left ball. :cool:

I *MIGHT* make a "movie style" exception that would categorize whatever the "flips, spins, twists & tricks" thing might be. I think it's called Aturu or whatever. In other words, fine--for STAGED COMBAT, the actor/dude/character flips around and does a bunch of spins. Like the CGI Yoda. Or like Anis Cheurfa if you want a true-to-life example. But whatever the case... those moves are extremely fancy, and about 90% useless during what might be coined as "real" combat if we wanted to speak of MMA, sport fencing, boxing, TKD, "dog-fighting", blah, blah, frickin' blah.

But yeah, fine... ok... backflips and b-twists = Yoda's "style" or whatever. I'd like to see anyone employ that during NON-CHOREOGRAPHED action though. Cool as it is. I mean seriously... for those who know what I do and study... you KNOW I like acro and tricking. :) So the fact that I'm telling you that most of it is useless (90% of the time) for "combat"... should tell you something.

Also--in terms of "combat styles"--there are only so many ways a target on a HUMAN BODY can be addressed. Even less ways when you are trying to make the quickest, most effective move to hit, break, bind or lockup said target (this is often referred to as a 'direct attack' in many forms of martial art pedagogy--sometimes under different names though). For those who know what I'm talking about... yup, I have always agreed with Bruce Lee's (very educated) assessments regarding if there is such a thing as a "style" of fighting. I do not believe in a "style" either... there is only what works and what does not--for every given person, given their opponent, situation, weapon, etc.

And finally... since we're mainly talking about "saber combat", and not really covering hand-to-hand... I can tell you that most sword combat "phrases" (this means something to martial artists)... last only seconds before someone is hit. That hit usually occurs in such a quick moment... an untrained eye would rarely be able to determine what happened.

...and if this is so... then any "swordplay" that you see that lasts longer than 10 seconds (and that's being GENEROUS)... is either:

A) done by totally untrained martial artists who do not have the correct sense of distance
B) choreographed

For those who don't agree--if you're close to the SF/SJ bay area, I will meet you anytime to do any kind of "sword or stick" battle... I guarantee that when things "begin"... one of three things will happen:

A) YOU will be hit in <10 seconds by myself...
B) I will be hit by YOU in <10 seconds...
C) We will BOTH be hit in <10 seconds...

uh... unless you just flat out run away like little beeeeeotttccch!!! hahahahah :D

[sekrogue1985]

hahahahah! Awesome Gravy. :P

Actually, in all seriousness, for those who actually study martial art... they probably would agree with me when I say that the "beginner" or the person who has NOT been "trained"... is *NOT* to be trifled with!!

Also--for those who do not know... I'm sorry, but--those ridiculous "saber forms" are grounded in about 10% reality and 90% fantasy. I mean all that jedi garbage like "Dajem Sow" or whatever they are all called. They were all made up WELL after the IV, V and VI films anyhow. Might have even been after EP I too. Not sure of that. But still 100% BS. Most especially a bunch of BS if it comes to taking one of the characters from the movie and attributing some singular "form" to that person. Ha. My left ball. :cool:

I *MIGHT* make a "movie style" exception that would categorize whatever the "flips, spins, twists & tricks" thing might be. I think it's called Aturu or whatever. In other words, fine--for STAGED COMBAT, the actor/dude/character flips around and does a bunch of spins. Like the CGI Yoda. Or like Anis Cheurfa if you want a true-to-life example. But whatever the case... those moves are extremely fancy, and about 90% useless during what might be coined as "real" combat if we wanted to speak of MMA, sport fencing, boxing, TKD, "dog-fighting", blah, blah, frickin' blah.

But yeah, fine... ok... backflips and b-twists = Yoda's "style" or whatever. I'd like to see anyone employ that during NON-CHOREOGRAPHED action though. Cool as it is. I mean seriously... for those who know what I do and study... you KNOW I like acro and tricking. :) So the fact that I'm telling you that most of it is useless (90% of the time) for "combat"... should tell you something.

Also--in terms of "combat styles"--there are only so many ways a target on a HUMAN BODY can be addressed. Even less ways when you are trying to make the quickest, most effective move to hit, break, bind or lockup said target (this is often referred to as a 'direct attack' in many forms of martial art pedagogy--sometimes under different names though). For those who know what I'm talking about... yup, I have always agreed with Bruce Lee's (very educated) assessments regarding if there is such a thing as a "style" of fighting. I do not believe in a "style" either... there is only what works and what does not--for every given person, given their opponent, situation, weapon, etc.

And finally... since we're mainly talking about "saber combat", and not really covering hand-to-hand... I can tell you that most sword combat "phrases" (this means something to martial artists)... last only seconds before someone is hit. That hit usually occurs in such a quick moment... an untrained eye would rarely be able to determine what happened.

...and if this is so... then any "swordplay" that you see that lasts longer than 10 seconds (and that's being GENEROUS)... is either:

A) done by totally untrained martial artists who do not have the correct sense of distance
B) choreographed

For those who don't agree--if you're close to the SF/SJ bay area, I will meet you anytime to do any kind of "sword or stick" battle... I guarantee that when things "begin"... one of three things will happen:

A) YOU will be hit in <10 seconds by myself...
B) I will be hit by YOU in <10 seconds...
C) We will BOTH be hit in <10 seconds...

uh... unless you just flat out run away like little beeeeeotttccch!!! hahahahah :D

I can agree completely and utterly with you NOvastar. The thing that I find a lot with some of the saber junkies around me is when they fight they want to be all movie flashy and use all these silly moves like they see in movies and other media. They are like look at this cool move i've learned or want to show off. They they have no practical purpose.

When my grandfather taught me the sword he taught me the art of killing a man, and all the underhanded techniques used to make a man dead. However I don't use them that offend because there is no need for skills like that. It was more of something for me to get over my ADHD.

ANd i hate fighting untrained idiots that just want to "mess around". Thus when i fought a guy for kicks and giggles are the epIII premier it was over before most knew what actually happen. That and that guy was being an ass and hitting people with a POS habro...

[Novastar]

I can agree completely and utterly with you NOvastar. The thing that I find a lot with some of the saber junkies around me is when they fight they want to be all movie flashy and use all these silly moves like they see in movies and other media. They are like look at this cool move i've learned or want to show off. They they have no practical purpose. Please edit out the (small) language blurb there... :) Remember, TCSS = kid friendly, heheh.

And hey, to play devil's advocate... showy moves *DO* have practical purposes... they just do not have to do with "combat" per se:

* Agility, dexterity, muscle memory
* It takes dedication to learn a decently fast and complex spin/twirl move... at least... *I* find it to be tough!! :)
* Comfortability while manipulating your weapon... I mean, if you feel like you and the weapon are best friends (so to speak), and you are comfortable holding it, spinning it, tossing it, balancing it, playing with it in most EVERY way... that's mastery. :)
* Dude... everyone LOVES to watch that stuff... it's entertaining if it's done CORRECTLY and with skill.

And then, the same thing with "flips and acro tricks". Believe me, people might laugh at a martial artist doing a round-off + flash kick, but... here goes:

* Takes some GUTS! If you land on your head... you can break your neck... so you need to learn correctly.
* Ray Park, Bradley James Allen, Jackie Chan, Jet Li... they all do these moves... so... who is going to make fun of THAT?!?! For those that do... are you INSANE?!?!?!? :) :mrgreen:
* I can speak from personal experience that learning the b-twist is pretty tough... and it's much like anything else... it takes dedication, time, physical efforts, study & skill

That's why I like guys like "Shadevalyrn"... he's really into getting spins down, and works hard on the stuff...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bmASgKmZis

Also, if you haven't seen Paul from FX-sabers, he's "banditcar" on Y-tube I think, and has an entire video tutorial DVD for saber spins. I love Paul's work because it really shows the basic "pedagogy" for how you'd take a very basic spin... then build... then build more... then add a hand pass and so forth. It really becomes a language when you think about it. :)

As it is... I'm working on my 2nd staged combat tutorial (for maybe a 2nd Crystal Focus Sound CD????), and it's hard to know whether I should even bother including any spins in there since I'd have to say... Paul & folks like Shade really have that stuff down and... it's certainly not *MY* specialty!! :D

[Sairon]

and then you handed his arse to him, your the best sek. But yes I argree with Nova flips and spiny moves don't work in real life, they look cool but like nova stated most real life sword fights last les then ten seconds, the average samurai fight is two seconds and BAM someone is dead. and yes I know that is a huge run on sentance.

[Goodman]

As far as the seven saber forms go, I would probably be considered Djem So/Vaapad. Straightforward, direct, straight for the kill with minimal (often reckless) lack of defense. Every movement a cut, or at least a positioning for a cut.

Training in Kenjutsu (not Kendo) for over ten years promotes decisive moves that are intended to end any incursion quickly. That being said, I completely agree with Novastar that "non-formally trained" opponents can be just as deadly --they're inconsistency can come as a huge surprise and is hard to predict. Many a time I've been bonked on the head by someone doing some crazy out of the blue spin with his eyes closed, hahaha!

I am also one of those not inclined for the "flippery" of Ataru. Old knees don't take well to flips :)

[Darth_DevilGuy]

for a little clarification on where the 'forms' came from, they were made up for the Knights of the old republic P&P RPG, so yeah Nova's pretty much right, they're a crock.

That said I think that at least a few of them can be made workable as fencing styles if care is taken to design rules around the nature of how a lightsaber would act.

I'll post a breakdown later but I gotta run right now.

[Lord Preston]

That said I think that at least a few of them can be made workable as fencing styles if care is taken to design rules around the nature of how a lightsaber would act.

See, I don't understand the "How a lightsaber would act," phrase. Wouldn't it be the same as a real sword, just no weight in the blade?

[Firith Tar]

Ataru for me! look at Qui Gon Jin acrobatics are NOT part of Ataru... only spins (as in whole body) and running my style looks very much like Jin's style. My friends said when TPM came out that Jin reminded them of me (from Bokken sparing, this is from kendo/kenjutsu classes before my lightsaber days) I move without thinking, I just do (by letting muscle memory flow).

"Ataru is an aggressive form of combat, focusing on power, speed and graceful movement. Ataru users are nearly almost on the offensive, using wide, fast and powerful swings. By calling on the Force and allowing it to flow freely through the body an Ataru user can overcome certain physical limitations.

Those who use Ataru can move at amazing speeds, and rain strong blows from all sides. They hardly stay in one place long enough for the opponent to lauch a counter attack." from http://www.freewebs.com/lightsaber_combat/formivataru.htm

[Novastar]

And look at how well the flips aided Anakin in the lava... hahahahah... :)

[Hasid Lafre]

Well anakin wasn't with the force so to speak and as usually let his ego get ahead of him, Just cause your a sith now dosent make you someone who practices form 3, defend defend wait for an opportunity, strike, lather rinse and repeat and by the end of the fight you still got the strength to keep going.

So, ego sith man whose wore out trying to do a flip, I seen that coming a mile away.



@Hasid Lafre: I found the balance point already, and it requires removing exactly 3" of the blade using an Ultra Mid. I am just not sure how good the sabre will look with only 31" visible. Physics necessitates the shortening of the blade from movie-length to allow for faster motions, and I'm not sure I want to do that. But hey, that's what my Corbin blade is for. :D

I would try adding weight first, you might be used to your blade length that when you go to duel it would throw you way off.

[Novastar]

As to Anakin's death... that was just a script/story choice. Nothing else. In fact... it was a poor one, in my opinion. That idiotic "high ground/low ground" thing was ridiculous--as we ALL know--as was the dismemberment at that point. Especially since Obi-Wan could have done that many times earlier. Still. The result of the fight was also ALWAYS known by all of us... since IV, V and VI had already determined that. ... .... but... ... the "fatal mistake" could have been A LOT more interesting. A lot. And a lot less "Hello, I'm Chad Vader, I work at a thrift store and I'm a complete moron at this point in the story"... :)


...I completely agree with Novastar that "non-formally trained" opponents can be just as deadly --they're inconsistency can come as a huge surprise and is hard to predict...You've hit it on the head (pardon the pun). That's exactly what Lee was talking about regarding "the beginner". Unorthodox behavior leads to the inability for the opponent to predict what's coming next. And the beginner will do all sorts of "weird" things to someone with EXPERIENCE... that may result in actually WORKING for said beginner. Their timing sucks... their technique is deplorable... their distance is a mess... and they have no idea when to attack or defend--they just do whatever comes naturally! :confused:

To me... *THAT* would actually be the closest thing to a "style" that I could believe in. Changing. Often! BUT WITH PURPOSE (and via training)...

So... changing targets... tempo/rhythm... mood... distance (footwork)... aggressiveness and defensiveness. Good stuff.

Basically... if you never make the same move twice (within reason) during any sort of match... the only thing that the opponent can predict is... you're unpredictable!

Sounds easier than it is though. You have to have quite a few "tools in your belt" (so-to-speak) to achieve such "comfortable randomness"... so... don't take it at face value. Besides... all these "random" moves--need to WORK. :) They can't just be random for the sake of being random. After all... THAT'S the beginner. :mrgreen:

Trained randomness... now THAT junk is hard to keep up. Even the best will "recycle" motions, patterns, combinations. You just need to hide as much of it as you can so that people can't just say "Ohhhhhh, I got it now... he tends to do X when I do Y like... hmm... 90% of the time. Got it."... ... and then they start to unravel you like a badly woven cloth. :twisted:

[VeggieJedi]

Well, i think cardcollector really wanted everyone to pick a Star Wars lightsaber fighting style (like Ataru etc) in the context of "playing around/choreo/not for serious" fighting so in that case I pick Djem Sho like Luke for the power it has.

But in a real fight like some of you thought the question was about, I would say you counldn't have a "style" because each combat scenario is different with different people and therefore different attack patterns so you are going to have to change and adapt to the situation. :D

Oh and @ Lord Preston and the "how a lightsaber would act" phrase. Have you watched the Birth of the Lightsaber movie on the bonus disc of SW original trilogy? that answers it but shout up if you want me to explain more.

[Goodman]

Novastar, that "unpredictable" form sounds almost like a "Drunken Saber" style, haha. Precision veiled in unpredictability. :)

One of my fellow instructors at LAJedi is actually working on a style of that kind. Even just fooling around with different steps/concepts, it looks quite promising. Stumbling, bumbling...BAM!

[sekrogue1985]

And look at how well the flips aided Anakin in the lava... hahahahah... :)

more like poor life choice.

[gundamaniac]

I'm with Gravy on the wave-the-stick-blindly-til-i-hit-something style!

[Angelus Lupus]

I also like the dodge-manically-and-try-not-to-get-hit style.
In the SW universe I'd probably revert to my usual game style of Force-Push-until-they-can't-get-up-then-stab-them.

[gundamaniac]

While we're at it, don't forget the run-away-and-taunt-from-a-distance style.

[Angelus Lupus]

While we're at it, don't forget the run-away-and-taunt-from-a-distance style.
Ah yes, like the line from Monty Python and the Holy Grail:
"Would it help to confuse them if we ran away more?"

[Onli-Won Kanomi]

Also--in terms of "combat styles"--there are only so many ways a target on a HUMAN BODY can be addressed...

...there is only what works and what does not--for every given person, given their opponent, situation, weapon, etc...

...And finally... since we're mainly talking about "saber combat", and not really covering hand-to-hand... I can tell you that most sword combat "phrases" (this means something to martial artists)... last only seconds before someone is hit. That hit usually occurs in such a quick moment... an untrained eye would rarely be able to determine what happened...

... unless you just flat out run away like little beeeeeotttccch!!! hahahahah :D


There are only so many possible angles-of-attack and learning to defend against all the finite number of angles-of-attack is certainly going to be easier and perhaps more effective than learning specific counters against the near infinite numbers of every conceivable attack move/combo. IRL doesnt Escrima/Arnis/Kali teach that principle of defense-focusing-on-angles...in SW fiction it's Soresu which is why Obi-Wan is not intimidated by Grievious 'propellor blades' attack; he knows it doesnt matter how 'untypical' an attack may be because one lightsaber or four, normal strikes or 'propellors', there are still only the same angles-of-attack to counter so for his task at hand of defence nothing has changed against Grievous than any other foe.

Whereas Jedi who tried to figure out HOW to defend themselves against Grievous move-for-move would get Pwned.

I agree with only what works for every given person which was why I pointed out how ones own health conditions, temperament, even muscle memory from using other tools frequently/habitually, can all be as or more important than 'pick a style' based on impersonal considerations of what is 'superior' on paper.

And that may also impinge on the 'deadly beginner' aspect you mention since a beginner won't have been 'taught'/'trained' to 'correctly' follow a 'system' approach to a style that may not fit their own peculiar personal circumstances...they will only care about what works for their OWN needs not what is taught as 'proper form'.

And you are right that real world SERIOUS fights [for blood not competition] are almost always decided in seconds.

IRL. For normal humans.

But the saber duels we see in SW are NOT 'swordfights' by normal humans/humanoids they are, basically, saberduels between SUPERHEROES.

And not just any kind of superhero but PSYCHIC/PSIONIC superheroes. This changes in-universe SW saber duels in profound ways that are very different from IRL swordfighting.

For one thing it makes LIGHTsabers make a LOT more sensible...if your enemy is TELEKINETIC a blade of light rather than dense matter that can be easily telekinetically pushed or pulled against is the most sensible close-quarters weapon...indeed its an inevitable weaponeering response to the existence of telekinetic personal combat and if high level telekinetic fighters appeared IRL then real 'lightsabers' and 'blasters' or other directed-energy rather than matter/matter projectile weapons would follow ASAP.

But beyond the more showy and obviously dramatic telekinesis is the effect of Jedi/Sith TACTICAL PRECOGNITION on saber duels that does NOT apply to IRL swordfights.

Yes IRL combatants all TRY to anticipate their opponents attack...but in the fictional SW universe of Jedi and Sith psychic superhero warriors who all have tactical precognition there is no 'try' ;-)...they DO.

IRL "an untrained eye would rarely be able to determine what happened" but fictional Jedi/Sith don't merely see they FORESEE.

That in itself would inevitably draw out saber duels well beyond those 10 seconds and may even make sense of some of the 'ridiculous' showy nonsense that perhaps might be intended to confuse, dazzle and distract an opponent in hope of weakening their Focus on the Force by which they can not merely anticipate but PREDICT attacks...in that sense the reasoning of some aspects of Jedi v Sith lightsaber combat may be due to unique Jedi/Sith psychological factors with no comparison in REAL swordfighting.

It is quite confusing to perceive the 'future' at the same 'time' as the 'present'...the human brain is designed to integrate sensory percepts into concepts and encode it linearly in real time within a single-stream consciousness of causality as linear memory...if you have ever experienced even 'moments' of real Precognition while engaged in even the simplest physical activity then you know how disconcerting it is to have 'extrasensory' percepts competing 'dual stream of consciousness' with sensory percepts in the same integration 'space' while continuing to do even the simplest physical tasks.

Now imagine how much more potentially confusing and difficult for a Jedi or Sith who has to FIGHT in that mental condition while seeing the 'present' and 'future' simultaneously...Jedi/Sith Training to USE Tactical Precognition would be extremely difficult mental Discipline of the hardest kind.

Breaking through that to distract and reconfuse an opponent mentally would be a major but largely unseen aspect of Jedi v Sith saber duelling if they existed.

This internal mental challenge isnt easily portrayable visually onscreen in SW movies but its inevitable to any actual use of Tactical Precognition in close combat...and is reflected in certain scenes like Qui-Gons admonishment to Obi-Wan to be mindful of the Living Force or Yoda chastising Luke about not keeping his mind on where he IS and what he is DOING...for a subculture of precognitive warriors this would be a most serious issue requiring the most serious commitment of the most serious mind to extremes of mental Discipline quite unlike anything that exists in the 'real world' where REAL Precognition is sporadic and unreliable not continuously present as for SW Jedi or Sith.

SW saber duels therefore would NOT be like real swordfights in many quite significant differences.

Comparing the fictional SW saber forms to real swordfighting techniques IS interesting in regards to how normal humans might use a 'lightsaber' if it were real...and therefore realizing aspects of the fictional Saber Forms may well NOT APPLY to normal humans...only a 'real' Jedi or Sith if they actually existed with the kind of psychic superpowers that more limited real psychic experiences dont begin to approach IRL...yet...maybe when the American Republic is 20,000 years old eh? But not yet.

And running away like a "beeeeeotttccch!!!" from a fight with someone who can predict your every attack would be a good example of discretion being the better part of valour imo.

[Novastar]

There are only so many possible angles-of-attack and learning to defend against all the finite number of angles-of-attack is certainly going to be easier and perhaps more effective than learning specific counters against the near infinite numbers of every conceivable attack move/combo.Very true, to a certain extent--especially when we're talking about the FINAL portion of an attack (if it was a feint, you'd better hope you parry in the correct place where the ACTUAL finish of the attack is).
IRL doesnt Escrima/Arnis/Kali teach that principle of defense-focusing-on-angles...in SW fiction it's Soresu which is why Obi-Wan is not intimidated by Grievious 'propellor blades' attack; he knows it doesnt matter how 'untypical' an attack may be because one lightsaber or four, normal strikes or 'propellors', there are still only the same angles-of-attack to counter so for his task at hand of defence nothing has changed against Grievous than any other foe.I disagree 100%. Anyone who wishes to allow me to have two sabers/swords/sticks while they have only one... this will definitely result in them being hit by at least one of my weapons. And god forbid I have 4 arms and 4 sword-type weapons... or 6 arms, etc. (and you still have 1 saber and 2 arms).

You cannot defend in two places at once (with one "sword")... and you ESPECIALLY cannot do so if the attacks come from opposing angles.

The ONLY way to do this... is to solely back up, and always be out of distance. However... this would make it fairly impossible to ever win the phrase/score the point/kill your foe... because both fighters would constantly be missing.

It's hard to explain, but... believe me--if you give me 2 sabers and you only have 1... yer arse is grarse. :)
...Jedi who tried to figure out HOW to defend themselves against Grievous move-for-move would get Pwned.That was (again) more plot stuff... but... at least it's more realistic. And by the way, in the film... Grevious looked like he was WAAAAAY less than a beginner while fighting Obi-Wan. Attacking in the same place with two sabers at a time... not using all four at a time... ugh. It was sad. BUT... necessary since Obi-Wan had to "win".
I agree with only what works for every given person which was why I pointed out how ones own health conditions, temperament, even muscle memory from using other tools frequently/habitually, can all be as or more important than 'pick a style' based on impersonal considerations of what is 'superior' on paper.What I really mean by this is... since I am a relatively short guy... I would not use the same timing and distance as someone like Kareem Abdul Jabbar would. Speaking of which--"Game Of Death" (although movie choreography)... demonstrates a wide variety of techniques where Bruce Lee's character has to deal with each in his own way. It's choreography... but it demonstrates adaptation.
But the saber duels we see in SW are NOT 'swordfights' by normal humans/humanoids they are, basically, saberduels between SUPERHEROES.True! :)
And not just any kind of superhero but PSYCHIC/PSIONIC superheroes. This changes in-universe SW saber duels in profound ways that are very different from IRL swordfighting.If so, then why do they even bother engaging in saber combat? It seems clear to me that if they could "read" where every move was coming from... they'd block everything, lol.

I mean even when Dooku and Yoda are playing around throwing blocks and objects and boulders back and forth... Dooku admits that they must settle things via saber combat.

Besides, this is stepping into a realm where you can't really "show" a "mental move" during a battle (in a film). Well maybe a few... but trying to show that the Force is being used on EVERY move?!?!? That starts to reach into beyond ridiculous.

It's as silly as someone "using the Force" to block a bunch of saber moves. Sure, it sounds right given the world of SW... but the LOOK of it is all wrong for a film. It's not exciting to watch either. In my opinion.
...IRL "an untrained eye would rarely be able to determine what happened" but fictional Jedi/Sith don't merely see they FORESEE.This is what I mean... this is starting to go WAAAAAAAAY beyond what an audience can digest. Then it becomes... well why don't they just not show up at the fight since they can forsee X?? Then don't do Y because they know Z will happen? Fly by in an X-Wing and drop a nuke on Jedi A or Sith B b/c they have "FORSEEN" their presence? :)
It is quite confusing to perceive the 'future' at the same 'time' as the 'present'...the human brain is designed to integrate sensory percepts into concepts and encode it linearly in real time within a single-stream consciousness of causality as linear memory...if you have ever experienced even 'moments' of real Precognition while engaged in even the simplest physical activity then you know how disconcerting it is to have 'extrasensory' percepts competing 'dual stream of consciousness' with sensory percepts in the same integration 'space' while continuing to do even the simplest physical tasks.:shock: :shock: :shock:

[cardcollector]

[QUOTE=VeggieJedi;120384]Well, i think cardcollector really wanted everyone to pick a Star Wars lightsaber fighting style (like Ataru etc) in the context of "playing around/choreo/not for serious" fighting so in that case I pick Djem Sho like Luke for the power it has.

That is true. I really wanted to know how people staged their battles.
Novastar was right on the money when he said the "untrained" are a lot more dangerous. Has any of you face a mob of 8-10 year olds whose only intention is whacking you as hard as they can? That takes guts!:D

[sekrogue1985]

I'm with Gravy on the wave-the-stick-blindly-til-i-hit-something style!

isn't that basically what we all want to do with our sabers...

[grayven]

All I want to know is ever any of you and I meet for face to face combat, are you going to run?
















If not, then how will you catch me?;) Because I will also do my "get the hell out of town" style.

[Novastar]

Has any of you face a mob of 8-10 year olds whose only intention is whacking you as hard as they can? That takes guts!:DGee, let me think... ....

...yeah, that'd be these insane b-day parties I do, heheh. :) Granted, sometimes that stuff isn't caught on the camera for these past few parties... but... believe me, it happens on every party.

At that point, I just choose to ignore as much as I can when I get whacked in the eye and jaw and so forth... and just keep going, laughing, smiling, having fun with them, and doing "play acting" with ARARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!! when they get me... :) I rarely want to steal their joy by suddenly stopping and saying "OW you got me in the eye".

Unless they're just completely INSANE and are swinging so hard that even their FRIENDS are in danger... that's a big no-no. And it DOES happen. Kids DO get whacked when they get out of control... but... I try my best to keep a handle on it.

Anyhow... "saber combat" has a WHOLE lot of connotations and iterations. Again... I think it's important to specify what is being discussed so that people can address it. If it's just in general... this thread is perfect. If it's more super-specific such as:

"Choreographed, 'dangerous'-looking, dramatic saber fighting that appears to be 2 super-heroes with awesome skills duking it out."

...then this thread is (quite naturally) all over the map. :D

And amendments like: "Oh, and by the way... the actors I have in mind are NOT Jackie Chan clones, and we're doing this for fun and for zero profit. Can the above still be done???"... are always nice to know too. :rolleyes:

[Darth_DevilGuy]

See, I don't understand the "How a lightsaber would act," phrase. Wouldn't it be the same as a real sword, just no weight in the blade?

sorry I didn't respond to this I've been sick, there's a world of difference between lightsabers and swords, think about it:

Where a sword has an edge along one or two sides a lightsaber can cut no matter what direction it's moving, moreover no matter how light the hit even just a graze will inflict 3rd degree burns at the very least, the blade of a lightsaber is infinitely more dangerous than that of a sword.

Now consider the limitations of real swords, a Katana or Saber is good for slashing, but not for thrust, a rapier is fast and strait for thrust but too light and flexible to slash and chop, a broadsword or longsword can chop and thrust but is heavy and slow.

A lightsaber on the other hand can move like a rapier, thrust like a longsword, chop like a broadsword, and slash like a katana, moreover it lacks the directional bias of a mundane sword. Most people never think about the way a sword is constructed, and what that says about its use, a true swordsman doesn't parry with the edge but with the flat, and the grip is important because without a proper grip your blade won't be faced correctly for the cut, with a lightsaber this isn't a problem there is no edge, there is no flat, there is only the blade which is supremely versatile.

So in emulating lightsaber combat you'd need to impose an artificial system, as in sport fencing, to simulate the properties of a lightsaber.

[Anavrin]

(W)ith a lightsaber this isn't a problem there is no edge, there is no flat, there is only the blade which is supremely versatile.

Well, YEs and no. You still should have a proper grip as you'll still encounter resistance (No free lunch, as they say. The ionization of matter alone would provide some feeling of feedback) and a proper strike will do the job just flat /better/. But you're right in that blade orientation is less-important–if you can control a "sideways" slash or want to cut in a circle, as long as your grip is secure, you'll cut.


So in emulating lightsaber combat you'd need to impose an artificial system, as in sport fencing, to simulate the properties of a lightsaber.

I'm a fan of one-strike rules, myself–anything that hits is a point. After all, with a lightsaber, if you get cut, you'll most likely lose whatever focus you had and be dead shortly after. Unless your opponent is obscenely pompous and wants to gloat, giving you time to recover (like in HOW many movies?!). That also teaches a good solid rule of combat–the best hit to take is /none/.

[Firith Tar]

Longswords are not heavy or slow... they also have something special called windage...

[Lord Preston]

sorry I didn't respond to this I've been sick, there's a world of difference between lightsabers and swords, think about it:

Where a sword has an edge along one or two sides a lightsaber can cut no matter what direction it's moving, moreover no matter how light the hit even just a graze will inflict 3rd degree burns at the very least, the blade of a lightsaber is infinitely more dangerous than that of a sword.

Now consider the limitations of real swords, a Katana or Saber is good for slashing, but not for thrust, a rapier is fast and strait for thrust but too light and flexible to slash and chop, a broadsword or longsword can chop and thrust but is heavy and slow.

A lightsaber on the other hand can move like a rapier, thrust like a longsword, chop like a broadsword, and slash like a katana, moreover it lacks the directional bias of a mundane sword. Most people never think about the way a sword is constructed, and what that says about its use, a true swordsman doesn't parry with the edge but with the flat, and the grip is important because without a proper grip your blade won't be faced correctly for the cut, with a lightsaber this isn't a problem there is no edge, there is no flat, there is only the blade which is supremely versatile.

So in emulating lightsaber combat you'd need to impose an artificial system, as in sport fencing, to simulate the properties of a lightsaber.

Ok, I understand. Thanks Darth D.G.:cool:

[Sairon]

Firith I don't want to flame you but............. I have made swords for awhile now and know how they work. If you have a long blade it is going to move slower then a short blade(eg a claymore and a katana).

[Firith Tar]

Yes the weak part of the blade (tip) is slower, but it is by no means slow... I think I may have read it wrong I assumed that the poster was implying that they are unwieldy (most longswords are around 5-7 pounds)… you also didn’t insult me…

[ARKM]

...I think I may have read it wrong I assumed that the poster was implying that they are unwieldy (most longswords are around 5-7 pounds)…

As a person who has spoken at length with a custom sword maker (Rick Barrett) about sword weight and as a person who has owned 3 custom broadswords, one of which was an Albion Conan Destroyer Atlantean, I can assure you that unless you have a lot of upper body strength, a 5 pound sword is unwieldy and slow.

The Conan sword is over 7 pounds and is much shorter than a longsword. It is extremely well balanced and feels great to wield. However it's weight definately makes it unwieldy to the average adult male. While I am sure my arm and upper body strength is below average, my roomate's and my one of my cousin's is not. They have both held the sword and also feel that is is heavy/unwieldy. As such, I can only assume that you have above average upper body strength and are not taking into consideration those who are weaker than you.

On another note, just as an FYI, stainless steel weighs more that 1050, 1074 and 1080 steel (3 of the most common grades used by custom sword makers). This means that all of the stainless steel wall-hangers weigh noticably more than their "combat ready" counter-parts. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Firith Tar]

As a person who has spoken at length with a custom sword maker (Rick Barrett) about sword weight and as a person who has owned 3 custom broadswords, one of which was an Albion Conan Destroyer Atlantean, I can assure you that unless you have a lot of upper body strength, a 5 pound sword is unwieldy and slow.

The Conan sword is over 7 pounds and is much shorter than a longsword. It is extremely well balanced and feels great to wield. However it's weight definately makes it unwieldy to the average adult male. While I am sure my arm and upper body strength is below average, my roomate's and my one of my cousin's is not. They have both held the sword and also feel that is is heavy/unwieldy. As such, I can only assume that you have above average upper body strength and are not taking into consideration those who are weaker than you.


You own an Albion sword... how I envy you so! I admit that I bath in ignorance when it comes to any longsword more the 3-4 pounds (Mind you they avrg around 43-46 inches in length) I will also admit that my tozando iaito along with my rapier are faster then my longswords. The fact for me still remains that they are far from slow.

I however am more often then not wrong about many things... I am also responsible for drifting this away from it's intended topic.

[ARKM]

You own an Albion sword... how I envy you so!

I did but I had to sell it as well as my Rick Barrett leafblade longsword to pay bills. I got the Albion Conan sword in June 2008. I have been unemployed since July. I sold the sword in December. *sigh*. I still have my custom Rick Barrett sword though that was made from my blueprints. I'd rather be homeless then sell that sword. Fortunately I have relatives who can store it should such an event occur.

To get back on topic, I'm going to have to agree with Novastar on this one. Made up forms for an RPG are just that... made up. Completely bogus.

Until an official instruction manual (with lots of diagrams) or an official instructional video showing these fictional forms is released, can anyone even really say that they are emulating that fictional style? I think not. The current description in the P&P KOTOR RPG manual and KOTOR games just doesn't seem like it would be enough to go by.

[Swordlord]

As a person who has spoken at length with a custom sword maker (Rick Barrett) about sword weight and as a person who has owned 3 custom broadswords, one of which was an Albion Conan Destroyer Atlantean, I can assure you that unless you have a lot of upper body strength, a 5 pound sword is unwieldy and slow.

The Conan sword is over 7 pounds and is much shorter than a longsword. It is extremely well balanced and feels great to wield. However it's weight definately makes it unwieldy to the average adult male. While I am sure my arm and upper body strength is below average, my roomate's and my one of my cousin's is not. They have both held the sword and also feel that is is heavy/unwieldy. As such, I can only assume that you have above average upper body strength and are not taking into consideration those who are weaker than you.

On another note, just as an FYI, stainless steel weighs more that 1050, 1074 and 1080 steel (3 of the most common grades used by custom sword makers). This means that all of the stainless steel wall-hangers weigh noticably more than their "combat ready" counter-parts. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
Please remember the Conan sword is a fantasy sword, and is no means representative of the weight of historically accurate swords that have a provenance of use in battle. Most weighed between 2 lbs and 3.75 lbs.

The real topic here, however, is lightsaber combat styles. I for one am interested in this because I'm not sure if we're speaking of the Jedi forms mentioned in various media or if we are talking about choreographed vs a created sparring style for our lightsaber creations.

[ARKM]

Please remember the Conan sword is a fantasy sword, and is no means representative of the weight of historically accurate swords that have a provenance of use in battle. Most weighed between 2 lbs and 3.75 lbs.

Correct. The conversations with the swordmaker Rick Barrett regarding historical sword weight was more of what I was referring to in terms of accuracy... that and the fact that the Conan sword was heavy, very well balanced but still unwieldy.

[Novastar]

Yes the weak part of the blade (tip) is slower, but it is by no means slow... I think I may have read it wrong I assumed that the poster was implying that they are unwieldy (most longswords are around 5-7 pounds)… you also didn’t insult me…The tip of most any sword or stick type of weapon moves the quickest, especially when the weapon is being correctly used as a lever.

So again... we come back to proper balancing. An ill-balanced 3-lb. weapon can actually be MORE "unwieldy" than a properly-balanced 4-lb. weapon. Balancing is also independent of the weapon type (sword, stick/staff, "lightsaber", mace, axe), and it's probably one of the most important things that makes a weapon useful in my opinion. If a saber is badly balanced... I hate even bothering to use it. It just trains me incorrectly anyhow. :)

In fact, I'd say about 75% of the "sword weapons" you'd find out there in stores (online or otherwise)... are likely to be ill-weighted/ill-balanced knockoffs. If you want a true sword weapon, you pay thousands--quite easily.

Also... THANKS Darth-Devilguy for your excellent breakdown regarding swords vs. "light sabers"--that is a great way to put it in perspective for everyone considering the most foundational differences we'd want to think about when considering attacking actions. I agree 100%.

As it is... for those who are interested... DevilGuy is quite correct about where western-style saber fencing is going... that is to say--because of the electronic scoring systems that came about in the 90's... any pressure over zero on the target area registers a hit. That means... if you fail to defend in ANY way--you're hit. Whether it's a barely even a tickle/scratch or a super-p'owning arm-pumping *POW*... that might give a point to the opponent.

That being said... you ALSO do not appear to have to hit with the "cutting edge" of the blade anymore. So yes, what Devilguy is saying is quite relevant in that... saber fencing is a fairly close analog to what you "might be able to do" with a proposed "light" saber.

[Eco]

Okay, spill it! Declare Park and Kingdom! :D

Lord Donnovan Sunrider
Founder of the Duchy of the Frost Lands (http://www.frostlands.net/)
under Kingdom of the Rising Winds
Squire to Sir Clu daBard of the Emerald Hills

Pff, beats me. I just showed up at my friend's request and started beating on stuff. (And by "stuff" I mean people. ;) )
I got to liking the dueling more than the Kingdom junk, so I just focused on that.
Got pretty good at it, though!

[Drichar Deis]

A good book on this subject is:

Sword Fighting in the Star Wars Universe: Historical Origins, Style and Philosophy
by Nick Jamilla

Im in the process of digesting it at the moment, after waiting 4 weeks for it.

2 reviews:

This book is very interesting in that it takes a look at the Star Wars universe through the eyes of a Martial Arts expert. Its if Nick Gillard, the stunt coordinator of the Star Wars movies was giving us his insight into the fighting styles and the historical references of the Jedi and the Sith.
If you find this kind of analysis interesting, then you'll love this book, otherwise it gets quite tedious.

Jamilla has given George Lucas' fictional world a meaning and substance it has lacked for some time now ... Nick Jamilla is an accomplished martial artist, teacher and writer, and it shows.

While many superficial and market-driven SW fans may be discomforted by a direct analysis of the SW universe unfettered by LucasFilm's marketing thought-police, those with an adult interest (who perhaps enjoyed the films in the 70's and 80's) will be engrossed and engaged. This is a serious historical and philosophical work and you will put it down as a different person!

The book is unashamedly the work of a loving fan, but one who combines that passion with a razor-sharp martial-arts-informed microscope.

Jamilla gives us both an intrinsic "in universe" rationale for the Jedi and their mysterious "laser" sword arts ... AND a brutally honest extrinsic "real world" picture of how and why we saw what we saw ...

This book is a MUST BUY for anyone who has an interest in martial arts, swords & sword "culture", fight choreography and Star Wars ...

It can be, at times, a heavy academic read - but that is it's value. This one is not a fairy-floss coffee-table over-produced glossy fan-mag, it is a serious and loving tribute - for the THINKING fan.

I commend it to those with the wit to see its value! :)

[cardcollector]

So again... we come back to proper balancing. An ill-balanced 3-lb. weapon can actually be MORE "unwieldy" than a properly-balanced 4-lb. weapon. Balancing is also independent of the weapon type (sword, stick/staff, "lightsaber", mace, axe), and it's probably one of the most important things that makes a weapon useful in my opinion. If a saber is badly balanced... I hate even bothering to use it. It just trains me incorrectly anyhow. :)

So what would you call a pefectly balanced saber? Is it where the center of gravtiy meets where the blade comes out of the hilt? (sorrt, that's really badly worded.);) There is one other thought had. back at the start of this thread you had said that Spinning is just a fancy manuver and I have to disagree. Spinning is a great way to catch your opponent off gaurd and even get an advantage point behind him/her.:)

[DDanDevious]

my style is known simply as "Pimp Hand".

recognize.

DDD

[Darth_DevilGuy]

So what would you call a pefectly balanced saber? Is it where the center of gravtiy meets where the blade comes out of the hilt? (sorrt, that's really badly worded.);) There is one other thought had. back at the start of this thread you had said that Spinning is just a fancy manuver and I have to disagree. Spinning is a great way to catch your opponent off gaurd and even get an advantage point behind him/her.:)

actually it'd be towards the center of the hilt for maximum accuracy to the available information, I'd say the best way to achieve that would be to pack lead fishing weights toward the back of the hilt or in the pommel and use a thin walled blade.

edit: and if you wanted to go really nuts then add a motorized gyroscope in their to simulate the gyroscopic effect they're supposed to have.

[Novastar]

So what would you call a pefectly balanced saber? Is it where the center of gravtiy meets where the blade comes out of the hilt? (sorrt, that's really badly worded.);) There is one other thought had. back at the start of this thread you had said that Spinning is just a fancy manuver and I have to disagree. Spinning is a great way to catch your opponent off gaurd and even get an advantage point behind him/her.:)Regarding my opinion (and what is fairly standard for most "real" sword weaponry)... I'd say the weapon balance should be at the forward hand, or just a bit forward of it (toward the blade).

When I say at the forward hand--I mean to say... you must be holding the sword prop/whatever properly. The forward hand should be closest to the guard of the sword (or "emitter" I guess). People who want more 411 could always watch my staged combat tutorial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8ysz3l8VIY) on the NSCFCDv1.1. :)

Some people prefer the weighting to be a little bit further up--often referred to as the ricasso... or basically the "strong" of the blade/prop/whatever.

In my opinion--having the weight in the direct center of the prop would be useless, except as a "hang-me-on-the-wall" display prop. You can usually tell if a weapon is properly balanced by holding it horizontally (parallel to the ground), and using two fingers underneath to attempt balancing the saber/prop/etc. If it balances way up the blade--in my opinion, something is wrong. If it balances pretty close to where you'd hold it--great. If it balances only a bit up the blade... that's great for others (however not my preference).

Additionally, people should NOT forget that overall weight is important. A properly balanced 7 lb. weapon can be less effective than a SLIGHTLY unbalanced 4 lb. weapon. As with many things... ALL components are important. Like a bicycle without tires... what's the point? :) The other parts become useless.

As to spinning/twirling a weapon... I don't know what you mean regarding an "advantage point behind him/her"--I guess you'd have to explain? Personally, the only "spinning/twirling" I could see being useful would be the following:

* very fast singular strike or parry that moves in a "cursive lowercase 'L'" kind of pattern (whether from upward to downward or the opposite or sort of sideways... this is hard to describe. It's a QUICK flourish.)

* any single, circular strike or parry that "draws a circle" in front of your own body (whether clockwise or c-clockwise)

* a very fast spin/torque of the body that would be most easily explained in words as a "spinning backfist" type of action. But I wouldn't recommend it, since this is MUCH slower than the other actions above

I can't think of anything else (spin-wise) that would be very effective (versus a decently-trained to well/expertly-trained martial artist). In general, all large "twirls and spins" do is create time and openings for your opponent to take advantage of and a well-timed direct attack would devastate or "arrest" such spins.

But don't take my advice... as with all things--study, learn, apply and find out for yourself. :)

[cardcollector]

Hey Novastar, thanks for the reply. According to your definiton and by some amazing dumb luck my first saber is "well balanced".:D As for the spinning I apologize... I was talking about using my staff saber and, as you know it is IMPOSSIBLE to use one with out spinning your body and the blades. You are right in using a single bladed saber. Spinning it in your hand is just a fancy move.;)

BTW I recently watched BOP I, and II and LOVED THEM.:D:D They are the best fan films I have ever seen! When's #3 coming out?

[Novastar]

Hey no worries... actually, I found that in general--when building LED sabers with thin-walled blades, the balance USUALLY comes out fairly well. That is... if your blade length isn't insane and if your hilt length isn't insane either. So something like a 32" to 35" blade + a hilt that is 10" to 12" usually works fairly well. Of course it depends on the battery weight, hilt material and all that... but... it's usually not bad.

As to a staff, oh I understand. The other thing with the staff is that it's used even MORE as a lever (push + pull), when you have both hands on either side of the hilt (nearest the "emitters"). I cover a bit of this in my staged combat tutorial as well, but... it's a similar principle. Push with the right hand, pull with the left = some kind of attack.

Spinning and twirling a staff can make you "vulnerable to attack" as well... although with the sheer length + two blades... it can be a nightmare to "find a way in to attack" with a shorter-bladed "single saber". If the person spinning it was (for example) Ray Park... and we were all just ourselves (basically amateurs)... we'd get our arses handed to us. :) But, maybe with two people of equal skill, the staff spins wouldn't be so hard to find the right timing to attack... and the staff-wielder would tire and slow much more quickly.

Well... at least with LED sabers. With carbon fiber rods or hollow aluminum pipes... fuggeddabouddit. :D

[chase]

I usually use the theory of Soresu or Ataru. I'm tall and lanky so those fit me best. I also enjoy double bladed combat.

[Cobra121212]

Heaviest emphasis on Djem-So for me, because of the direct two-handed overhead slashes and such. I integrate some one-handed Makashi in with it as well to try and get some use out of my real-life fencing experience.

[Novastar]

Personally--as I've mentioned in this thread--I'd love to see video of people sparring with 'lightsaber forms' or whatever it is they said was used in the SW world (as an afterthought).

I'd think it would look relatively ridiculous unless it was actually being used solely as "choreography"... and even then... the moves in the form would be required to be full of parries or blocks that protect target areas... and conversely: full of attacks that threaten to strike the target areas of an opponent.

That being said... if people were sparring, attempting to hit one another, that would mean everyone would need to wear:

* Masks -- fencing masks could work
* Somewhat padded armor -- a few thick sweatshirts could work, or some leather and cloth or whatever
* Decently padded gloves... with some foam to absorb shock
* Elbow pads I suppose
* Knee pads + shin guards
* Heavy boots that would protect the feet (even if this was not part of the target during sparring)

You'd probably want a cup too... to protect your nuts. Oh, and you could use whatever LED saber you liked I suppose. I guess the blade lengths would have to at least be close. As in you wouldn't have a 45" blade while your opponent stood with a 24" blade.

THEN I'd like to see some video of two people using whatever styles they say they employ "from the SW forms".

[Anavrin]

Personally--as I've mentioned in this thread--I'd love to see video of people sparring with 'lightsaber forms' or whatever it is they said was used in the SW world (as an afterthought).

I'd think it would look relatively ridiculous unless it was actually being used solely as "choreography"... and even then... the moves in the form would be required to be full of parries or blocks that protect target areas... and conversely: full of attacks that threaten to strike the target areas of an opponent.

THEN I'd like to see some video of two people using whatever styles they say they employ "from the SW forms".

Perhaps you've seen the "Soresu" form created by NYJedi? *grins* Kidding aside, I would love to just get some of our folk together and spar some like this. Just to see who really practices their forms, and who resorts to random strikes XD But I'm a horrid person who enjoys social experiments conducted on the unwitting ;)

[cardcollector]

I really think that there isn't enough info on the forms to actually use them.

That's not counting the fact they were designed for choreography.;)

I mean, there is only a summary like "this from is very elegant and powerful using precision..." you can't really apply that to fighting.:rolleyes:

[sekrogue1985]

protective gear very very very good idea. i usually use the kote from my old kendo gear and when fighting the kiddies always always wear a cup for those guys out there! Kids play cheap sometimes unlike friends your own age.

[Novastar]

I'm not saying the link below demonstrates "real" saber combat, but it is an example of what high-level saber fencing looks like, complete with rules and protective gear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-s6tshiz_k

There are obviously other sport sword arts (Kendo) that are just as applicable to this thread, but... I'll try to explain a little of fencing since--they are all foundationally similar.

Saber Fencing. For those that do not know, the target area is everything above the waist (minor exception that the hands and fingers don't count, but... they are rarely hit if you're well-trained).

Many years ago (before electronic scoring), you needed to hit with "the cutting edge" of the blade. Now--it is of little consequence how you hit with the blade... only that you hit! Abomination to the "true" sword or not... it is what it is now for the sport.

When a fencer hits another fencer's target area with the saber... the other fencer only has 0.125 seconds to even be able to REGISTER a hit against that opponent. For those who don't understand what I'm saying... it means--if you hit quickly enough... even if your opponent strikes you: it may not count for jack.

So for reference's sake--if I hit you... you now have HALF of a QUARTER of a second to hit me. That's pretty quick. If you have not--it's completely impossible for the point to go to you. It will go to me without question. Well, unless I broke the rules in order to achieve that point (duh). :rolleyes:

If BOTH fencers register valid hits within the lockout time... and neither broke rules to do this (duh)... the director must determine a few things:

1. Did anyone have "right-of-way" (only applies to saber and foil. You may need to look this concept up in order to fully understand)
2. If the director feels that both fencers (or neither) had right-of-way at the time the 2 attacks began... no point is achieved by anyone (nice going guys, you both committed suicide!)
3. Fitting in with #1 here... did anyone LOSE right-of-way due to their attack missing, their attack being parried (or beat), or did they pump their arm backward allowing an opportunity for the opponent to attack

Now... ultimately? Creating a SINGLE LIGHT (in your own favor, duh), showing that you hit your opponent and they did not even graze you--is the best way to ensure unquestionable victory. No one can say you cheated, or that the ref made bad calls: even an uneducated viewer could say "Whoa--that guy didn't get hit.... uh... but the OTHER guy did."

HOWEVER... I will tell you that creating such a situation (hit them while not being hit) can be tough to do. It takes training, a ton of experience and training with cadence (a sense of measure between you and the opponent), and an excellent sense of timing.

In fact--I'm going to bet that if you ask 10 actual GOOD practitioners of ANY martial art... 100% of them should tell you that a precise sense of measure is essential to that martial art. All of them. 100%.

If they do not agree nor do they have anything to say about measure/cadence... or if they don't understand what you're asking... or if they say that it is unimportant... they know very little about combative martial art, believe me. Whether "sport" or "real" or whatever.

I mean... like... try telling someone well-trained in Krav Maga that "precise distance is fairly irrelevant" and you'll give them a hearty laugh.

[sekrogue1985]

I'm not saying the link below demonstrates "real" saber combat, but it is an example of what high-level saber fencing looks like, complete with rules and protective gear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-s6tshiz_k

There are obviously other sport sword arts (Kendo) that are just as applicable to this thread, but... I'll try to explain a little of fencing since--they are all foundationally similar.

Saber Fencing. For those that do not know, the target area is everything above the waist (minor exception that the hands and fingers don't count, but... they are rarely hit if you're well-trained).

Many years ago (before electronic scoring), you needed to hit with "the cutting edge" of the blade. Now--it is of little consequence how you hit with the blade... only that you hit! Abomination to the "true" sword or not... it is what it is now for the sport.

When a fencer hits another fencer's target area with the saber... the other fencer only has 0.125 seconds to even be able to REGISTER a hit against that opponent. For those who don't understand what I'm saying... it means--if you hit quickly enough... even if your opponent strikes you: it may not count for jack.

So for reference's sake--if I hit you... you now have HALF of a QUARTER of a second to hit me. That's pretty quick. If you have not--it's completely impossible for the point to go to you. It will go to me without question. Well, unless I broke the rules in order to achieve that point (duh). :rolleyes:

If BOTH fencers register valid hits within the lockout time... and neither broke rules to do this (duh)... the director must determine a few things:

1. Did anyone have "right-of-way" (only applies to saber and foil. You may need to look this concept up in order to fully understand)
2. If the director feels that both fencers (or neither) had right-of-way at the time the 2 attacks began... no point is achieved by anyone (nice going guys, you both committed suicide!)
3. Fitting in with #1 here... did anyone LOSE right-of-way due to their attack missing, their attack being parried (or beat), or did they pump their arm backward allowing an opportunity for the opponent to attack

Now... ultimately? Creating a SINGLE LIGHT (in your own favor, duh), showing that you hit your opponent and they did not even graze you--is the best way to ensure unquestionable victory. No one can say you cheated, or that the ref made bad calls: even an uneducated viewer could say "Whoa--that guy didn't get hit.... uh... but the OTHER guy did."

HOWEVER... I will tell you that creating such a situation (hit them while not being hit) can be tough to do. It takes training, a ton of experience and training with cadence (a sense of measure between you and the opponent), and an excellent sense of timing.

In fact--I'm going to bet that if you ask 10 actual GOOD practitioners of ANY martial art... 100% of them should tell you that a precise sense of measure is essential to that martial art. All of them. 100%.

If they do not agree nor do they have anything to say about measure/cadence... or if they don't understand what you're asking... or if they say that it is unimportant... they know very little about combative martial art, believe me. Whether "sport" or "real" or whatever.

I mean... like... try telling someone well-trained in Krav Maga that "precise distance is fairly irrelevant" and you'll give them a hearty laugh.

YOu make me want to get back into fencing. man i miss those days. with school and trying make money for school and other stuff i got little or no time to do diddly. I rarely ever get on the forums much.

[cardcollector]

Ok Novastar, here are the videos of the lightsaber forms. I found them on youtube and I didn't make them. I think it is what you were looking for. The first one is pretty funny!:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFRTnUen5lg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FPbay_gucQ&feature=related (don't ask me why count dooku's blade is blue i have no idea and yes the cartoons are lame!)

The NY Jedi actually teach different forms in classes but no videos with people in actual combat using them...

[Anavrin]

The NY Jedi actually teach different forms in classes but no videos with people in actual combat using them...

Because we don't do sparring–we're stage choreo only.

I'm actually thinking of creating a group that would be otherwise...

[Darth_DevilGuy]

No offense but those videos don't really show that much, it's mostly because the forms were a creation of KOTOR and no one doing the choreography was really paying all that much attention to them.

Here's a breakdown of the forms and my assessment of their usability for creating a sport/martial art.

Form 1 Shi'Cho:
Based heavily on previous sword arts and Jedi Philosophy this form is dedicated to the act of Sun'jem, that is disarming one's opponent, which is considered the ultimate goal.

This form would probably be usable as a basis for one usable form in a light saber centric martial art, it's basis would likely be Iaido, kendo, or bushido, it doesn't require any sort of special powers to use though trying to disarm is probably silly especially in any kind of sport fencing.

check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVY9gT6W0Qk
Notable users
Kit Fisto

Form 2 Makashi:
Developed as a counter to the widespread use of Shi'Cho, makashi focuses more on precision and technique as well as utilizing the mobility and range of a single handed swing. Makashi masters often employ curved or angled hilts because the angle

This would be a good second form, I'd say that it would be based on Epee fencing, but including less emphasis on the tip and more movements and strikes from the classical saber and rapier in order to fit it to the fact that the light saber is deadly no mater facet you strike with.

Notable Masters;
Dooku/Darth Tyranus

Form 2 Soresu:
Based on the idea of pure defense as a counter to the proliferation of blaster technology, a master of soresu is the eye of the storm, his blade deflects all incoming attacks as he waits patiently for an opportunity to strike.

This form is sadly, utterly, bunk, there's no way any normal human could actually hope to deflect a continuous attack by a determined opponent long enough for the perfect opportunity to strike arises, the only way to use this would be to have precognition, which we don't.

Form 4, Ataru:
Developed as an expression of the need to utilize agressive actions Ataru focuses on the use of force empowered acrobatics to attack an opponent from all sides, often this form was favored by jedi of small stature because it compensated for their lack of reach by adding extreme mobility.

This isn't a fighting form, it's all flash, maybe Novastar's buddies in the flip kicks crowd could do something that looks like this but like form 2 without precognition guiding both their defense and their acrobatics they'd get cut to pieces in less than a second.

Notable masters;
Yoda
Qui'Gon Jinn

Form 5, Djem'so:
An aggressive form based on form 3 but less defensive, the general Idea is that a good offense is the best defense. Incorporates the defensive moves that allow a soresu user to last in a fight, while using power blows to hammer an opponent's defense and exhaust them.

This is the form we all remember from the original trilogy, I refer to it as the baseball bat form, because it pretty much looks like your fencing with a baseball bat. Nonetheless this should be a serviceable style, it incorporates offense and defense and is fairly basic, I would say using Kendo's basic forms would be most apt.

Notable Masters:
Anikan Skywalker/Darth Vader
Luke Skywalker

Form 6, Niman:
The diplomat's form, this form was an attempt to combine the best elements of the 5 previous forms. This form was predominant up until the start of the clone wars, where it's generalism was proved to make it ineffective.

This form could be used, but honestly it's probably not all that useful in and of itself, it's basically what they came up with to explain away all the generic flashy movements in the orriginal trilogy.

Notable Masters;
Ki Adi Mundi

Form 7 Juyo:
This is the most aggressive form, utilizes unpredictable strikes in combination with martial arts strikes to both batter and confuse an opponent.

This form would be closest to the forms utilized in Xao'lin and other variants of Kung Fu sword technique, it'd prabably be fairly useful if someone put the time in, especially because it's very unorthadox and the best swordsmen are unorthadox.

Notable masters;
Darth Maul

[Novastar]

This isn't a fighting form, it's all flash, maybe Novastar's buddies in the flip kicks crowd could do something that looks like this but like form 2 without precognition guiding both their defense and their acrobatics they'd get cut to pieces in less than a second.Which is why most acrobatics are meant for staged combat and appearance rather than "true combat". But you might have to eat your words on a few of those moves, Darth D... some very quick spinning kicks and "fancy" maneuvers have been used to knock out opponents in sport TKD many times over. Even b-twist round could be deadly if you were unready for a split second. Like I said... they have connected, and there IS video.

But again--this entire thread is pretty vague... whether we're talking about:

* Putting moves together that "sell" a fight to an audience in a way that both appear dangerous... but are relatively safe for the actors/performers
* Putting together systems where people can "fight" with only simple conventional rules... basically like Kendo or fencing: you hear "begin" or whatever, and then most anything goes.
* Just standing on your own in front of a camera and spinning, slashing and leaping around with your saber

Forms are neat, but... they mean nothing since the air around you... doesn't hit back.

[Darth_DevilGuy]

Which is why most acrobatics are meant for staged combat and appearance rather than "true combat". But you might have to eat your words on a few of those moves, Darth D... some very quick spinning kicks and "fancy" maneuvers have been used to knock out opponents in sport TKD many times over. Even b-twist round could be deadly if you were unready for a split second. Like I said... they have connected, and there IS video.

But again--this entire thread is pretty vague... whether we're talking about:

* Putting moves together that "sell" a fight to an audience in a way that both appear dangerous... but are relatively safe for the actors/performers
* Putting together systems where people can "fight" with only simple conventional rules... basically like Kendo or fencing: you hear "begin" or whatever, and then most anything goes.
* Just standing on your own in front of a camera and spinning, slashing and leaping around with your saber

Forms are neat, but... they mean nothing since the air around you... doesn't hit back.

I know very well, the first martial art I practiced was TKD, however I don't think a form based on the use of acrobatics would be all that effective against someone with a background in say jujitsu or judo. While spinning to add momentum to a strike is a good principle you have to know when to do it, trying to do it all the time like yoda would get you killed, all your opponent would have to do is step back and gauge your timing. That's why I said the form was all flash, it overuses the principle without understanding the inherent weakness in taking your eyes off the opponent.

[Anavrin]

I know very well, the first martial art I practiced was TKD, however I don't think a form based on the use of acrobatics would be all that effective against someone with a background in say jujitsu or judo. While spinning to add momentum to a strike is a good principle you have to know when to do it, trying to do it all the time like yoda would get you killed, all your opponent would have to do is step back and gauge your timing. That's why I said the form was all flash, it overuses the principle without understanding the inherent weakness in taking your eyes off the opponent.

Of course, there's something to be said for an unpredictable mass of flying body parts that gives you no time to react and constantly closes. If it hits you, you're in deep (*#&. If you react well, it could still just carry through on momentum alone. If you succeed, they're in for a lot of hurt. Recover time=open like Denny's. But I agree, the only way for this to work reliably as the majority of a style would be to have das force. :)

But it looks GREAT in choreo!

[Sairon]

I agree that choreo looks great, look at rvd2, but then look at real sword fights it isn't about finess it's about cutting the other guy before he cuts you, not "i'm so fancy you can't get me!" if you went fancy the other guy would stick you.