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makototsai
09-24-2008, 06:15 AM
Hi~everyone in here.
My name is Makoto and from Taiwan.
I am new here, I like lightsaber for a long time.

In this post is introduce the MR saber that is upgrade with my led saber design,
make the saber brighter than any saber(I has see).
Those are still keep sound and light-up effect.

link:

http://blog.yam.com/marikoswork/article/17388611

Ari-Jaq Xulden
09-24-2008, 06:39 AM
wow that's awesome are you gonna share your secret?

xl97
09-24-2008, 06:52 AM
I beileve his secret is an LED string....no?

not sure what super bright LED he uses however... glad hes here.. many have talked about his work before..

MoonDragn
09-24-2008, 10:59 AM
Hey Makoto, nice to meet you. I've seen your work on the net.

I'm from Taiwan originally also, nice to meet a countryman.

How sturdy are those LED blades? Can it be dueled with? I was thinking if you put LEDs in a inner tube of smaller diameter polycarbonate that it could probably withstand dueling without breaking the LED string. Would make it slightly less bright, but would go a long way to make the blade last longer.

makototsai
09-24-2008, 07:11 PM
wow that's awesome are you gonna share your secret?

hi~
The secret is the HB LED for specially make from Taiwan and keeping the passion and curious of lightsaber all the time.:p

I start to build the lightsaber by myself since I like it.
At first, I just usual lightsaber that no soundcard and light-up effect.
Just like that:
http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vd_NofAWVM

I start to use soundcard and light-up effect when I get my first MR saber that is break. I total understand the design of soundcard and light-up effect after I repair it.
Because I feel the MR saber is not brighter than my usual lightsaber, that is why I would like to upgrade MR. XD~~

makototsai
09-24-2008, 07:13 PM
I beileve his secret is an LED string....no?

not sure what super bright LED he uses however... glad hes here.. many have talked about his work before..

In fact, my secret in here,

http://album.blog.yam.com/Lightsaber&folder=3759206

XD~~

Novastar
09-24-2008, 07:33 PM
Hello again Mako!

Good to have you aboard. :) Thanks for joining TCSS threads/forums... and thank you very much for sharing the information on the HB style sabers... I'm sure many will make great use!

--Novastar

makototsai
09-24-2008, 09:12 PM
Hey Makoto, nice to meet you. I've seen your work on the net.

I'm from Taiwan originally also, nice to meet a countryman.

How sturdy are those LED blades? Can it be dueled with? I was thinking if you put LEDs in a inner tube of smaller diameter polycarbonate that it could probably withstand dueling without breaking the LED string. Would make it slightly less bright, but would go a long way to make the blade last longer.

Hi~~
Nice to meet you in here too~~
I live Taipei now.

The LED strip is sturdy enough for dueled, because the structure is simple, more simple~ more strong.
Dueled?! sure~~
http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=iLft_pRE6P8
http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=lcytkNFI3cY
http://mymedia.yam.com/m/1901324
XD~~~

makototsai
09-25-2008, 09:31 PM
Hello again Mako!

Good to have you aboard. :) Thanks for joining TCSS threads/forums... and thank you very much for sharing the information on the HB style sabers... I'm sure many will make great use!

--Novastar

Great to meet you in here~ XD~~
Let's make the best lightsaber~:)

Darth Vane
09-26-2008, 04:49 PM
please i need to know if you can convert MRs to this. i would love to have my Luke ANH with your setup.

Sairon
09-26-2008, 05:43 PM
I'd also love to see your setup Makotosai vs a Hyperdyne, also a turtorial in english would be awsome, (make a turtorial now! your sabers are the best I want to make one so bad!)

annon
09-26-2008, 07:12 PM
welcome to the forum Makotosai :)
Can the blade be removed with your set up, or is it permanent like a MR?

eastern57
09-26-2008, 07:40 PM
...also a turtorial in english would be awsome, (make a turtorial now! your sabers are the best I want to make one so bad!)

He already wrote a tutorial:

http://album.blog.yam.com/Lightsaber&folder=3759206


And I made a few in english:

http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=13487.0
http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=13553.0
http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=13567.0


You can make them yourself - it's VERY easy, you just have to have enough patience to suffer the test ;)

:)

Sairon
09-26-2008, 07:52 PM
Thanks Eastern, I hadn't seen thoses threads berfore.
What would you use instead if you don't have the MR foamy diffuser. (pm me

Master Dru-Er
09-27-2008, 06:12 AM
Im really interested in this project.
Just from taking a gander around has anybody used/heard about these guys?
http://www.kingbrightusa.com/category.asp?catalog_name=LED&category_name=Through-hole%20LED/3.0mm/50%20degree%20Viewing%20Angle&page=1
They say 50 degree viewing angle and 20 ma feeds the beast.

Sairon
09-27-2008, 09:50 AM
I'd say get an acount and see how much it costs. if it's cheap we should test it, but if it is too expensive I'd look for cheaper ones (by cheap I mean less than a buck each or a good bulk rate) (also if you do get an acount you shold list the prices here, like of the 5mm rgb's and any others)

edit: I found a great site that has many different types of five mm leds for a great price and free shipping. http://www.ledshoppe.com

makototsai
09-29-2008, 04:32 PM
please i need to know if you can convert MRs to this. i would love to have my Luke ANH with your setup.

hi~Darth Vane~

Luke ANH ?
just like that?
http://pics11.blog.yam.com/8/userfile/L/Lightsaber/album/148725271693ef.jpg

makototsai
09-29-2008, 04:37 PM
welcome to the forum Makotosai :)
Can the blade be removed with your set up, or is it permanent like a MR?

Hi Annon~
The MR saber after upgrade isn't remove, because it need to duel.
If I make the MR saber that can be remove, the saber will be not strong and need to break the surface to fix saber.

makototsai
09-29-2008, 04:39 PM
He already wrote a tutorial:

http://album.blog.yam.com/Lightsaber&folder=3759206


And I made a few in english:

http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=13487.0
http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=13553.0
http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=13567.0


You can make them yourself - it's VERY easy, you just have to have enough patience to suffer the test ;)

:)

hi~Eastern57

Happy to see you in here.
For tutorial in English.
[GOOD JOB] Tto you.

makototsai
09-29-2008, 04:52 PM
I'd say get an acount and see how much it costs. if it's cheap we should test it, but if it is too expensive I'd look for cheaper ones (by cheap I mean less than a buck each or a good bulk rate) (also if you do get an acount you shold list the prices here, like of the 5mm rgb's and any others)

edit: I found a great site that has many different types of five mm leds for a great price and free shipping. http://www.ledshoppe.com


If you understand every parts of the MR saber and make lightsaber more enought, upgrade the MR saber is not very diffcult and expensive.

But~~

You will break your MR saber when you are not have experience of MR's disassemble.
So, if you want upgrade your MR saber, you must try to build lightsaber more enought by yourself.XD~~~

The LED is more bright more better in 5mm(dia.) and the angle of 45 degree is best in my side.

erv
09-30-2008, 12:52 AM
hi everyone,
as you guess I've been contacted by a bunch of you guys about this :mrgreen:
After moving and working close to 4 months in the house, I now have a temp lab installed and I'm back to props electronics (yeah, I know, I have a batch of something to make, but I can't remember what it is... think it starts with C., something about a crystal... mmmm).

sharing a few thoughts here. First is to send some congratulations to makotosai. Like other blades out there which were claimed to be huge research and innovation, we a nice alternative to what is possible. LED strips aren't new, but MR design targeted a mass market and therefore chose cheap leds, not special ones and more over, they had to deal with power supplies (what would a kid think of a saber lasting 10 minutes instead of 4 hours).
This is not reducing the work of makotosai. HB leds, wide angle or not, are there for a while but I'm happy that the DIY spirit shows up here and provides people a simple way to upgrade a saber or create a blade.

I've never liked the PCB thing. MR ones isn't that bad but suffers from what any PCB have : it's flexible, true but the copper layers are so thin that it would crackle at a moment or another. Remember also that's it's a cheap PCB and that many layer are running thru it (6 segments). Plus each LED has a resistor attached to it in the blade which gives 64 reasons for the blade to have problems. Most of the time, it's a resistor that goes away (poor soldering + bending blade), not the LED itself, despite it also happens.
Remember that PCB tracks are like 35 µm thick, only deluxe PCBs are 70µm and even that remains freaking thin.
Some would say "yes, but it works and it's duelable". Yep... but it's a question of design attitude and point of view. I personnally think it's useless to use 4A to drive the double number of LED which requires a PCB, and on the top of that use retarded batteries supposed to give only 1A on a normal and reasonnable use. Yep, it "sort of works". I'd say it lights up, but it's not designing electronics.

About a year ago, I demonstrated the possibility to obtain an extremely bright blade with... the stock MR blade, removing the onboard resistors on the PCB (shunting them) and there's also a segment on which I've used wide angle. I was using then a custom version of my CF board.

Here's the video link
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=oHLkznIpZKE

Like many things I've worked on, I moved to something else once it's been demoed, I'm sorry about that, CF and blaster core home manufacturing just consumed my time.

I'm very happy there's an interest about that again, so makotosai, once again, thanks for sharing that, great job and bright sabers.
I think I still have enough leds I bought like 2 years ago to make a blade.

I'm definitly going to make a ledstrip version of CF, an equivalent of V4. This will include brightness regulation / servoing instead of those other blades on which it's up to the user to manually select it. There's won't be a brightness resolution as in CF with the luxeon current settings, but I'd say at least 20 levels.
I'll prone the use of 2 li-ion cells in the 18650 format, leading to a maximum current of the blade of 2400 mA for an at least 1 hour run, or more if the blade consumes less current.

Now, in my opinion, the effort must also be made in finding an alternative way for the blade itself, cause even if retrofitting a MR blade is nice, I like the idea that we can source our own supplies instead of relying on the ebay aftermarket.
Solutions :
- Thin walled 1" polycarb blade + appropriate white LDPE diffuser
- thick walled 1" + TCSS diffuser (reduced space in the diffuser, not easy to fit LEDs + foam, to be tried)

foam diffuser replacement : when I tested 1 year ago, I got good results with wooden floors undercoating foam, extremely cheap.

Hyperblade comparison vs HB makotosai style blades : If you've seen the videos and the posts of Eandori with the luxeon vs hyperblade comparisons, you might know that a couple of those are travelling the world and will end in my labs. The original owner wanted to get rid of them, however I funded him a bit this since it's been more than helpfull and informative.
Just in case, for those who would like to say I'm getting those blades to analyse them for digital recast, be sure I won't copy a poor design with retarded battery setup. There's nothing "secret" with the HBlade. Twice the number of LEDs (or a little bit more), twice the voltage and... twice the weight. I'll never call that innovation. This does not remove anything to the fact someone built it and it's bright.

Results are not the final point when designing something, the elegance, quality and reliability count at least 50%. And taking 4A out of a 900mAh battery is everything except elegant, electronically speaking (even if the manufacturer says you can take 1.5 or 2C).

More soon,
Erv'

Novastar
09-30-2008, 02:14 AM
Bravo, Erv... these are all excellent points, and certainly help to put things into great perspective!

I, for one, am glad so much has grown from 2005/2006 regarding sabers.

It's hard for me to believe what kind of crazy world I got myself "wrapped up into" by putting together the BOP projects, joining threads/forums, learning about LED sabers in general, semi-"partnering" with Erv, making the CF Sound Compendium CD, staged combat tutorials, etc. etc. It's just crazy.

So... now to see more endeavors and innovations... IN ONLY <3 YEARS!!!!!!... it's pretty darn crazy...

Jonitus
09-30-2008, 06:31 AM
Erv,

I'll never argue anything you've just said. I was never a fan of Hyper's blade system. I knew from the minute I saw it he was doing nothing more than shoving more electronics in a bad design and overtaxing his electronics.

What's the saying..."You can't polish a turd". Yes, they are bright, but For what they are,t he cost of them makes no sense to me. I suppose that's why I've never bought one...and won't buy one.

Is designing a LED ladder system for saber hobbyists to use to build their own blades something you hope to achieve by analyzing the stuff making its way to France?

I'm too swamped with things right now, but building one of these blades has its place on my "to-do" list. It's a matter of finding a good source of high-quality LED and having disposable income to buy them in enough bulk to build a blade.

Still, a fork of the CF hardware to accommodate these style of blades is going to be well received, I think. They are an impressive looking balde, and for those of us who don't duel heavily and run virtually no risk of breakign the solder conections of our LED strings, it will make for a very, very impressive and bright lightsaber!

Jedi-Diah
09-30-2008, 10:48 AM
Thanks Erv!

Very exciting times for lightsaber technology. That would be great to have a choice on a CF of "HB led strips" or "single HP led" depending on what kind of blade you want to have.

Could you explain what you meant by:

"There's won't be a brightness resolution as in CF with the luxeon current settings, but I'd say at least 20 levels."

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "brightness resolution". Can it have different ignition/retraction speeds? Would blade flicker/pulse still be possible?

Thanks again!

erv
09-30-2008, 10:56 AM
disposable incomes,
héhé, gotcha jonitus, see what you mean.
About your question, it's just that above, someone asked (or was it on fxsabers ?) if there's a brightness comparison between hyperblades and this ladder style blade : I'll do the job myself, I have the tooling to run the hyperblade at it's nominal amperage of 4A.

diah : currently (if I can say so :rolleyes:) CF settings for the luxeon current is from 0 to 70 (70 <=> 1.5A) which gives a resolution of 21 mA per step, and for the led strip, this resolution will be less, leading to less "brightness steps". No big deal.
Flicker and pulse will remains there, as demonstrated on the youtube video (as well as blaster, force, force clash fx etc).
Erv'

Jedi-Diah
09-30-2008, 11:22 AM
Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

I assume there could be different speeds for the ignition/retraction scrolling effect? Would that depend on the ignition speed of the sound font?



diah : currently (if I can say so :rolleyes:) CF settings for the luxeon current is from 0 to 70 (70 <=> 1.5A) which gives a resolution of 21 mA per step, and for the led strip, this resolution will be less, leading to less "brightness steps". No big deal.
Flicker and pulse will remains there, as demonstrated on the youtube video (as well as blaster, force, force clash fx etc).
Erv'

Darth Vane
09-30-2008, 12:06 PM
hi~Darth Vane~

Luke ANH ?
just like that?
http://pics11.blog.yam.com/8/userfile/L/Lightsaber/album/148725271693ef.jpg

yeah. that is the one i got and i would love to have one of your blades in it.

erv
09-30-2008, 01:16 PM
ignition / retractation time is aligned on the sound duration on CF, and my quickly made led strip version of CF used the same but it's not so accurate, cause while the fade in progression is smooth, ignition with scrolling effect is coarse.
However, I think I've found a solution to couple both effects for a better render. Of course, like CF, there will be the instant on and instant off settings that will allow to have a quick "MR like" ignition/retractation effect, not matter what the sound is.

Jedi-Diah
09-30-2008, 01:29 PM
Thanks for being interested in this Erv. Looking forward to seeing it in action.



ignition / retractation time is aligned on the sound duration on CF, and my quickly made led strip version of CF used the same but it's not so accurate, cause while the fade in progression is smooth, ignition with scrolling effect is coarse.
However, I think I've found a solution to couple both effects for a better render. Of course, like CF, there will be the instant on and instant off settings that will allow to have a quick "MR like" ignition/retractation effect, not matter what the sound is.

erv
09-30-2008, 01:38 PM
you can have a good "apetizer" or "starter" with the youtube video link above, despite it's one year old ! :D

Jedi-Diah
09-30-2008, 02:04 PM
Thanks. That's the one I saw recently over on FX-Sabers from your post last year that got me interested. I'll watch it again though. I love the active EQ effect on the blade.

You mentioned making the MR blade brighter. I haven't messed with the led strips from a MR blade before. What do you recommend we can do with the stock MR blade that would make it brighter while we wait for better alternatives (including making our own led strip blades). I think you mentioned "shunting" the resistors (to ground). Would this be like bypassing them or replacing them with wire? I have a stock Anakin that I'm willing to experiment with.

Thanks for your help and expert advice (seriously).






you can have a good "apetizer" or "starter" with the youtube video link above, despite it's one year old ! :D

erv
09-30-2008, 10:19 PM
MR blades are composed of 6 segments and 64 leds total, each one having its current limitation resistor. It's calculated so that the LED takes more or less 20 mA leading to a total of 1280 mA when the blade is fully lit.
The MR electronic is very basic for the LED driving section : there's no current or voltage regulation. The resistors are calculated so that it's bright with fresh batteries then when voltage goes down, current goes down too, it's the Ohm Law
Voltage = Resistance x Current
or V = R x I (don't remeber if you guys use U or V for voltage, we use U)

you can write it also :
I = U / R
the resistors are fixed, so when the voltage U is going down, current is going down, brightness is dimming out.
To light up a segment of the blade the MR electronics sends a logical level (a '1') to a bipolar NPN transistor located close to the blade connector. It acts as a gate a lets the current flow, like a remote controlled switch. Voltage is then applied to the segment.
All LEDs of a segment are wired in paralled, meaning that the total current is the sum of the current of each LED : MR couldn't do otherwise since the voltage applied is only 4.5V (3 AA of 1.5v) and LEDs, are like 2.1 or 3.6 V, depending on forward voltage (which depends on the colors, and therefore on the semiconductor used, InGaN or GaAlInP). Those values are average, you have rare blue led going down to 3.0V and red going up to 2.5V.
With a voltage as low as 4.5V, you can power 2 leds in serie, well it would work for red but not for blue / green.

Reducing the overall current could have been done by changing the ladder structure, wiring PAIRS of LEDs so that you have only pairs in parallel, which divides the current by 2, but this requires to increase the power supply voltage, which is quite easy with 2 li-ion cells leading to 7.4V (don't do that on your MR, you'll probably fry the sound board, I'm not sure but...).

Now, knowing that :
- you can replace each resistor of the MR strip by another SMD one to increase the current in the LEDs
- or if you build the ladder structure, you replace all the resistors by a single one, and makotosai proposed a resistor calculator chart.

during my tests, I didn't use any resistors, that's why I remove them and shunted the pads on the MR strips : the voltage applied to the segments is setup using PWM from the board (I suspect that's what the Hyperblade electronics does too, I don't think he has resistors on his pcb neither).

But remember, the time you'll spend to change the resistors on the MR strip will the more or less the same for building a new ladder with HB leds so... you'd better directly go to the improvement
PERIOD, OR
you can remove the LEDs AND the resistors, shunt the pads, keep the MR strip and solder the HB LEDs on it
HOWEVER,
despite the PCBs is white, it has obstacles in front of the LEDs which reduces brightness and even aspect of the blade

I think it's time to think "ladder" wise

Erv'

Jedi-Diah
09-30-2008, 11:06 PM
Ok. So, best to make a new led ladder than to "fix" the MR strip since it has too many problems anyway. Now, I guess the question is where to find the "best" HB leds?

Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions Erv. Now, I'll let you get back to focusing those crystals or whatever you call it...;)

erv
10-01-2008, 12:12 AM
I'm on the way to buy and test 2 sort of LEDs I've selected, if they work well,
I'll see if I can compare the specs with makotosai.
He probably wants to keep his local source, which I understand, but he might either sell the LEDs or the ladder, or at least post some detailed specs.

Makotosai, for the rest of us, if you could post :
- the current at which the LED is supposed to be used (aka nominal current)
- diffusion angle (read somewhere it's 45°, is that it, or is it more like 30 or 60)
- brightness ratings. Just what the manufacturer says, that what they all use for spec sheets even the number itself does not mean much since it's just on the paper. Name the color for each millicandela value.
I'm guessing it's about 2500-3000 mcd for blue, and probably up to 12000 mcd for green.

this will help to source something equivalent to what you have and make the process of prototyping quicker, so that a CF led strip version board can be made soon.

Thanks !
Erv'

erv
10-01-2008, 05:06 AM
LEDs ordered,
and I've sourced some nice wire that will probably allow the scrolling effect wiring without the hassle of the shadows as eastern showed on his prototype.

I'm going to test 3 things in total :
- custom ladder I'll make, with scrolling effect
- modified MR PCB strip with HB Leds and other mods
- comparison with the HBlades

being in the manufacturing of the CF new batch (at home, in my personnal lab, by hand), I'll have the time next month, this will give me some time for the LEDs to arrive to my door.

Erv'

Jedi-Diah
10-01-2008, 08:31 AM
I wouldn't want you to neglect your "current lab project" ;-) for the sake of a new one. But I'm glad you are interested in the "new project" as well.

Thanks!


LEDs ordered,
and I've sourced some nice wire that will probably allow the scrolling effect wiring without the hassle of the shadows as eastern showed on his prototype.

I'm going to test 3 things in total :
- custom ladder I'll make, with scrolling effect
- modified MR PCB strip with HB Leds and other mods
- comparison with the HBlades

being in the manufacturing of the CF new batch (at home, in my personnal lab, by hand), I'll have the time next month, this will give me some time for the LEDs to arrive to my door.

Erv'

Jonitus
10-01-2008, 09:03 AM
Oh yes, I shall watch this project with MUCH interest. As soon as I saw the Mako style blades, I knew it was going to be something I wanted for a display saber.

Looks as though I had better set aside some monies after the sale of my next couple of sabers to buy some LEDs and get a ladder built in preparation of getting one of Erv's new CF that support this style of blade.

Jangotat
05-21-2011, 05:49 AM
Hey can you use "flashing LED's 5mm) the seem to be easier to find and cheaper. Will they work alright for solid on?

Azmaria Dei
05-21-2011, 06:47 AM
Hey can you use "flashing LED's 5mm) the seem to be easier to find and cheaper. Will they work alright for solid on?

holy necroposting batman! this topic is like 3 years old! and the CF still doesn't support string blades... as for blinking LEDs, with all your LEDs blinking randomly you would get a lot of uneven blank spots and the effect would be really bad... even the yellow candle flicker ones wouldn't be very visually appealing.

Jedi-Loreen
05-21-2011, 02:18 PM
Hey can you use "flashing LED's 5mm) the seem to be easier to find and cheaper. Will they work alright for solid on?
Really? This is a serious question? How would blinking LEDs make a solid looking saber blade?

Tarrell
05-21-2011, 03:56 PM
Hey can you use "flashing LED's 5mm) the seem to be easier to find and cheaper. Will they work alright for solid on?

Thet might make a great Xmas tree saber, most likely why there so cheap.
Remember the old saying: You get what you pay for :D