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987654321a
03-15-2006, 06:10 PM
hey do you guys like darth maul or darth vader better?

The Dark Side will kill you
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naashar
03-15-2006, 06:17 PM
It's a bit hard to say...it's like asking who likes Serpentor over Destro; on the same team, but in waaaayyy different leagues. Apples and Oranges, in my opinion.

You gotta love Maul, not only for being the predecessor, but for having the tattooed stones to stand up to two Jedi.

But, there's something to say about ol' Vader and his near perfect line delivery (thanx to James Earl Jones). I think it stems from actually having been alive during the times when Movie Theaters were king, when you could sit in the same theater 5-6 hours and not get harrassed by ushers or the like. I actually saw the first release Empire (twice in one nite on one ticket, thank you), and had the Lando Calrissian (sp?) and Han Solo limited edition Burger King glasses. Not cups. Glasses.

My God, I'm old.

So, to sum up: Maul for the Stones, Vader for the Lines.

You don't need to see any identification.

987654321a
03-15-2006, 06:21 PM
lol i like maul cause of his saber but i kinda hate vader, cause he became a ***** and rejoined the light side

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Devilstar2k2
03-15-2006, 06:39 PM
I forget who said it on this forum first, but they said it best... It was something along the lines of:

Maul = Beaten by Padawan = Sucks

xwingband
03-15-2006, 06:58 PM
That was me.[:D] Someone said Sith=Bad@$$ and Jedi=Pansies.

So to me Darth Maul=beaten by pansy padawan.

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Mi Gin Gonn
03-15-2006, 07:47 PM
what i didn't get about his death scene...obi wan jumps back up outta that pit, and maul looks astonished, like he didn't know a jedi could pull off a jump. he just stands there, allows obi to ignite his saber, and gets whacked. no counter move? he looked fast enough before. the editing/timing of that scene was nothing short of ridiculous.

"Chaka, call off Dawson, will ya?!"

Devilstar2k2
03-15-2006, 08:04 PM
Not to mention the fact that thats EXACTLY how Obi-Wan chopped Anakin up... Maul had the 'high ground' and should have destroyed him in an instant.

Nightwing
03-15-2006, 08:11 PM
Well, the fact is that the dark side can make ya stupid (as in prideful and arrogant, not intellectually worse). I mean, he had just spent the past five minutes staring down and taunting Obi-Wan. He sure wasn't expecting a comeback of any kind. Add that to the fact that Maul was basically just a savage warrior, not a thinker, and his style focused totally on offence, and you get the idea.

Devilstar2k2
03-15-2006, 08:19 PM
I don't know that much about Mauls backround, but c'mon... Obi-Wan was hanging there for a while, Maul could have done any number of things to him, and didn't? Then doesn't slash him during the jump when he clearly had the advantage?

The dark side would have to be pretty damn blinding to make you lose with those odds... I chalk it up to a not so great SW moment. Uncle George must have written that part when he was on the can, or something.

Nightwing
03-15-2006, 08:44 PM
According to various TPM books, Maul was purposely waiting and taunting Obi-Wan, "anticipating the kill". He figured Obi-Wan wasn't going anywhere, so he might as well just sit and glare for a while.

As for his reaction, you can see a really perplexed look on his face right when Obi-Wan starts to focus on Qui-Gon's saber. He looks like he's going "what the freak is he doing?..."

Even after Obi-Wan lands behind him, Maul still looks confused. It's possible he didn't realize Obi-Wan actually had a weapon in his hand.

james3
03-15-2006, 09:10 PM
While I thought Darth Maul was an awsome, downright evil looking soldier of the sith and the double saber was of course way cool, I still think Vader is the man. The one liners were awsome his force powers were cool and let's face it, spending a good part of a lightsaber battle one handed, toying around like he's just amusing himself is excellent.

I reckon I'm old too, I still have my glasses at my dad's house and my son thinks that he is the man when he gets to use them.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

Mi Gin Gonn
03-15-2006, 09:50 PM
yeah, i'm with devilstar on this one. that scene was just plain badly paced. jedi can do jumps. that's a given. did any of you guys play that damn SW game for Playstation? half the damn game was nothing but jumping!!!

man, i gotta quit listening to Lewis Black comedy specials so much. I find myself ending sentences like he does...WITH ABSOLUTE RAGE!!!

"Chaka, call off Dawson, will ya?!"

987654321a
03-15-2006, 10:46 PM
maul rules all and i was the one that said Sith=Bad ass Jedi=Pansies


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987654321a
03-15-2006, 10:48 PM
also what i dont get, is that every other zabrak(darth mauls race) could talk perfect english, even bao-dur in kotor 2, lol maul is kinda crappy that he cant speak, but wierdly he speaks english in battlefront 2

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987654321a
03-15-2006, 10:49 PM
and i know in some ways im spamming, but what about darth nemesis? who likes him, i like his saber!, but imagine if he had a dual blade saber?

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xwingband
03-15-2006, 10:51 PM
Dude, learn the edit function...[:p]

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james3
03-15-2006, 10:58 PM
someone is desperate to get to 100 me thinks.[;)]


"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

987654321a
03-15-2006, 11:02 PM
yep i am

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987654321a
03-15-2006, 11:03 PM
and i know how to edit

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987654321a
03-15-2006, 11:04 PM
[;)][}:)][}:)][:p]sweet im at 100 posts lol. [:D][:D][:D][:D][:)][:)][:)][:)][8D][8D][8D][:I]

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Nightwing
03-15-2006, 11:16 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 987654321a

also what i dont get, is that every other zabrak(darth mauls race) could talk perfect english, even bao-dur in kotor 2, lol maul is kinda crappy that he cant speak, but wierdly he speaks english in battlefront 2<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">He can speak quite well. Don't you remember his famous line, "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi; at last we will have revenge"?

Oh, btw, Bao-Dur and Darth Maul are Iridonian, not Zabrak.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 987654321a

[;)][}:)][}:)][:p]sweet im at 100 posts lol. [:D][:D][:D][:D][:)][:)][:)][:)][8D][8D][8D][:I]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Yes, and about 75 of them should be deleted.

No one likes a spammer. [}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)]

987654321a
03-15-2006, 11:26 PM
o, i thought darth maul was a zabrak, and ok fine i wont spam anymore lol sorry [:(] but wait what about darth nemesis is he iridonian too?

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BenReilly
03-16-2006, 08:26 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nightwing

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 987654321a

also what i dont get, is that every other zabrak(darth mauls race) could talk perfect english, even bao-dur in kotor 2, lol maul is kinda crappy that he cant speak, but wierdly he speaks english in battlefront 2<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">He can speak quite well. Don't you remember his famous line, "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi; at last we will have revenge"?

Oh, btw, Bao-Dur and Darth Maul are Iridonian, not Zabrak.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 987654321a

[;)][}:)][}:)][:p]sweet im at 100 posts lol. [:D][:D][:D][:D][:)][:)][:)][:)][8D][8D][8D][:I]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Yes, and about 75 of them should be deleted.

No one likes a spammer. [}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Maul was from Iridonia...but he was a Zabrak......So actually he was an Iridonian Zabrak...

naashar
03-16-2006, 09:03 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mi Gin Gonn

what i didn't get about his death scene...obi wan jumps back up outta that pit, and maul looks astonished, like he didn't know a jedi could pull off a jump. he just stands there, allows obi to ignite his saber, and gets whacked. no counter move? he looked fast enough before. the editing/timing of that scene was nothing short of ridiculous.

"Chaka, call off Dawson, will ya?!"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I feel ya, 100%!! It was as if George phoned it in. Everything up to that point was smooth as alabaster...Maul doing the classic "divide and conquer" move, what with the multi-level jumps, baiting Qui-Gon to pursue, and the energy shielded hallway. He even had one of the coldest finishers in the game: the turn-your-back-on-the-enemy-before-he's-even-fallen move! And what does he do? He dies like a newbie..looking all astonished an' thangs. If he couldn't sew it up, he deserved it like that. Akin to how Vader "redeemed" himself with the inner back and forth.."Do I defy my master..do I save my son..I'm so confused.." This from the man who turned a torture droid on his own daughter. I just expected a bit more, from both Dark Lords.

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bazuka
03-16-2006, 09:08 AM
Darth Maul was definitely Zabrak, and was definitely from Iridonia, The Databank says so. I didn't like him as much though, for the reason that he was killed by a padawan. No real Sith gets offed by a fruity kid with a rat-tail. Same as Asajj Ventress. She wasn't a sith, but an instrument.

Darth Vader on the other hand, while weak with the lightsaber after the man-suit, was completely awesome with the force. Choking a man through a television? That's a Sith.

And, by the way, the Sith Lightsaber (Double-ended) was also carried by Exar Kun, a mere 4,000 years before Maul. Exar Kun was the baddest Sith of all time.


Quiz for you guys...
Who was Palpatine's Master?

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james3
03-16-2006, 09:19 AM
Yes, you are right about Exar Kun but Maul is who we get to see on the big screen with that bad boy.

Plagis the wise, I just love how he's smiling the whole time he's telling the story. Fond memory for an EVIL man.

Which of course brings up the point of who was the biggest BA at least in the movies. Palpatine had more evil in his toenail than Maul, Dooku, and Vader all together.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

naashar
03-16-2006, 09:58 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by james3

Yes, you are right about Exar Kun but Maul is who we get to see on the big screen with that bad boy.

Plagis the wise, I just love how he's smiling the whole time he's telling the story. Fond memory for an EVIL man.

Which of course brings up the point of who was the biggest BA at least in the movies. Palpatine had more evil in his toenail than Maul, Dooku, and Vader all together.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must." - Obi-Wan Kenobi
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Oh, hands down! I'm inclined to give the credit to Plagis, though. If the tales tell true (great alliteration, if I do say so. And I did), it was he that manipulated Shmi's midiclorian content to "conceive" Anakin..patient ba$tards, the Sith.

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Nightwing
03-16-2006, 11:03 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by naashar

I'm inclined to give the credit to Plagis, though. If the tales tell true (great alliteration, if I do say so. And I did), it was he that manipulated Shmi's midiclorian content to "conceive" Anakin..patient ba$tards, the Sith.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Actually, GL said that's not the official story, and he will never release one.

I personally don't like the idea that the Dark Side, the anti-thesis of life, can create life.

naashar
03-16-2006, 01:26 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nightwing

Actually, GL said that's not the official story, and he will never release one.

I personally don't like the idea that the Dark Side, the anti-thesis of life, can create life.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Which is why I said that I was inclined..and even though that's what GL said, I thought it funny to read it in one of those "super-gi-normous official guides to..." in the graphic novel/scifi section of Barnes & Noble. Can't remember exactly which one (of course), but I think it's quite feasible. Especially if you consider the semantics of the whole Light/Dark debate. Can't necessarily take away or exclusively attribute one power/trait to one side or another, especially when to define them means to name the other in context.

To draw inspiration from another thread, I think Mace Windu's tale told in "Shatterpoint" really drove that semantic thing home. On his homeworld, it wasn't a matter of Light v. Dark, it was more like Order v. Chaos.

Not trying to rain on any parades (look: here come the Timpanis!), but I'm a fan of discussion. Thoughts?

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xwingband
03-16-2006, 01:32 PM
That's stereotypical Stover.[:D] In his fantasy books Heroes Die and Blade of Tyshalle that's a big deal. The main character ends up fighting the god of chaos from "Otherworld."

That really gets to the point of the NJO and a new view of the force being a matter of intent. The Jedi focused to much on the rules and didn't realize they were equating using power with the "darkside," which is a fine line.

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naashar
03-16-2006, 04:26 PM
Thankee, Sai-Xwing. Besides, by the way that both Obi and Yoda "handled" the Sith Lightning, they gotta know something of the Dark.

Either that, or rubber heeled boots.

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xwingband
03-16-2006, 04:29 PM
That's one of the points Vergere brought up in the NJO. There is no "darkside" of the force. The force is pure, the person is not. They taint it with their impossing of their will. You can use immense amounts of power like the sith, but it must be in accordance with the will of the force not your own.

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naashar
03-16-2006, 04:44 PM
Yeppers..It is what It is. Once they started anthromorphizing (ooh, S.A.T. word!) the Force, they completely lost sight of what it was they were "manipulating", and by it's cyclical context, allowing to manipulate them. Like a spiritual perpetual motion machine.

I know I keep going back to the book I just finished, but the way Stover described the jungle as a force vs. "entity", and by extension, Vastor, is a perfect example thereof. Consequently, the outcome of Mace's encounters with him were all determined by the view he took of him, and by extension, his (Mace's) relationship to that view.

Ooooh...my frontal lobe is tingling!

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GFORCE13
03-16-2006, 05:00 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Ooooh...my frontal lobe is tingling!

You don't need to see any identification. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> HA now that is the Funniest SW related statement I have seen all day, You Slay me, but not literally![:D][:p][;)][:o)]

May the Force
Be with You

Marc E.

naashar
03-16-2006, 05:16 PM
Oh, that tingle? It's Selsun Blue, and the tingle means it's working!

A bit off topic, but Selsun Blue sounds like a good Jedi name.

Selsun Felliculitus.

Sorry.

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Mur-Pa DiLos
03-16-2006, 11:05 PM
I definitely think it was the rubber boots! Simple science! lol.

I love Shatterpoint, it really shows Mace's personality. You're totaly right about the whole Force persectives.[;)] As I've said before, I think Anakin was the "chosen one" but with the Jedi getting so over-the-top pretentious and snooty, they even banned love and marriage, that they failed Anakin, not the other way around.[:0]

Since when can family and love be a bad thing? Maybe I'm a hopeless romantic, but it was Luke and Leia who saved Anakin, not the "GREAT JEDI OREDER!"[:D]

UltraSWG
03-17-2006, 03:29 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nightwing
Oh, btw, Bao-Dur and Darth Maul are Iridonian, not Zabrak.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

The Zabrak home world is Iridonia. That's like saying you're an earthling, not a human.

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UltraSWG
03-17-2006, 03:36 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mur-Pa DiLos
As I've said before, I think Anakin was the "chosen one"<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Anakin was definately the chosen one and he fulfilled the prophesy. He killed off the Jedi and the Sith, thus bringing the Force back into balance. The narrow dogmatic views of the Jedi didn't allow them to understand that to "bring balance to the force" meant to destroy both sides.

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LAN-ED-TUL
03-17-2006, 03:47 AM
your wise beyond your age like yoda, ultra. lol

You dont know the POWER, of the dark side...

naashar
03-17-2006, 08:44 AM
Indeed. They started thinking in terms of the Force as Defined, not as the Definer, if that makes sense.

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desertscorpion
03-17-2006, 09:36 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nightwing

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by naashar

I'm inclined to give the credit to Plagis, though. If the tales tell true (great alliteration, if I do say so. And I did), it was he that manipulated Shmi's midiclorian content to "conceive" Anakin..patient ba$tards, the Sith.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Actually, GL said that's not the official story, and he will never release one.

I personally don't like the idea that the Dark Side, the anti-thesis of life, can create life.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Nightwing,

I totally agree. Did you read my post a while back? Here's the thread. http://thecustomsabershop.com/sabers/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=274&whichpage=3

naashar
03-17-2006, 11:26 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">



Nightwing,

I totally agree. Did you read my post a while back? Here's the thread. http://thecustomsabershop.com/sabers/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=274&whichpage=3
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Great thread, Nightwing. I really like your take on the entire situation. Interesting ideas, and well defended.

Now, having been so armed with the knowledge, I feel just as, if not more, confident, and agree with x-wing's clearer explanation of thangs: the Force itself isn't inherently Good, Evil, Indifferent, whatever. Because those are Human traits, which fuel Intent. Jedi and Sith, in my own estimation, have access to the same skill set; Yoda would rather pull astrofighters out of bogs and have post-pubescent whiners from backwater planets balance him on their foot while doing a one-handed handstand, whilst Palpatine prefers his burgers Lightning-Roasted.

Again, you cannot define one without at least naming the other. Light, Dark. Order, Chaos. Franks, Beans. Oh..I got a bit off kilter, there. [:D] Which is what got the Jedi in trouble in the first place. Forgetting that they are conduits of the Force, not creators and thereby intenders of it.

But, as I said...loved the thought you put into the thread, man.

There's that lobe all a-tingle again! [:D]

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desertscorpion
03-17-2006, 12:05 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by naashar

Thankee, Sai-Xwing. Besides, by the way that both Obi and Yoda "handled" the Sith Lightning, they gotta know something of the Dark.

Either that, or rubber heeled boots.

You don't need to see any identification.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Naashar,

I would definitely think so...initially... but, the darkside is just the evil side of the same coin. Electricity courses through all living things. An electrical current can be used to restart someone's heart or to stop it. Most things used in excess or used the wrong way can hurt or kill. Moreover, Jedi Masters have even expressed that subtle control of the force is much more difficult than just an outpouring of raw power.

desertscorpion
03-17-2006, 12:28 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by naashar

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">



Nightwing,

I totally agree. Did you read my post a while back? Here's the thread. http://thecustomsabershop.com/sabers/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=274&whichpage=3
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Great thread, Nightwing. I really like your take on the entire situation. Interesting ideas, and well defended.

Now, having been so armed with the knowledge, I feel just as, if not more, confident, and agree with x-wing's clearer explanation of thangs: the Force itself isn't inherently Good, Evil, Indifferent, whatever. Because those are Human traits, which fuel Intent. Jedi and Sith, in my own estimation, have access to the same skill set; Yoda would rather pull astrofighters out of bogs and have post-pubescent whiners from backwater planets balance him on their foot while doing a one-handed handstand, whilst Palpatine prefers his burgers Lightning-Roasted.

Again, you cannot define one without at least naming the other. Light, Dark. Order, Chaos. Franks, Beans. Oh..I got a bit off kilter, there. [:D] Which is what got the Jedi in trouble in the first place. Forgetting that they are conduits of the Force, not creators and thereby intenders of it.

But, as I said...loved the thought you put into the thread, man.

There's that lobe all a-tingle again! [:D]

You don't need to see any identification.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I'd have to say that light is in NO way defined by darkness. Light defines. Darkness is void. Check this out:

A University professor at a well known institution of higher learning challenged his students with this question: "Did God create everything that exists?"

A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!"

"God created everything?" The professor asked.

"Yes sir, he certainly did," the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything; then God created evil. And, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then we can assume God is evil."

The student became quiet and did not answer the professor's hypothetical definition. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "May I ask you a question, professor?"

"Of course"! , replie d the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"

The other students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460 F) is the total absence of heat; and all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily examples of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

The young man's name -- Albert Einstein

UltraSWG
03-17-2006, 12:49 PM
Nice story, too bad it's just an urban legend.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

http://www.ultrasabers.com
Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity

naashar
03-17-2006, 12:52 PM
Well played, sir; however, if this discourse happened in his Math class, I'm afraid that it was a D+ answer...[:D]

There is another school of thought, however, that states that Dark is not necessarily the abscense of light, but the presence of all color. Which is an absolute truth, in my opinion.

Note the prolific use of "qualifiers" in all of my posts. I'm inclined. In my opinion,. There is another school of thought. I point these out to illustrate that these are my contentions, not the only ones to be held. I'm more than open and accepting of others' opinions, but not necessarily to change my thinking. I love the fact that we can discuss for discussion's sake; it's not important to me that we agree, but that we understand from whence we come.

Same school, same department, same professor:

"Class, I want you to think of the sum total of the lessons of this course. Now, I want you, for your final exam, to write an essay on the true existence of this chair, using any of the lessons we've covered. Your time begins..now!"

The students then furiously began to write out their essays; some touting Freud, others Jung, still others Skinner. Only one took a contemplative minute to think, jot his answer, turn in his paper and leave. All the other students had to stay to the end to complete their exam.

The next day, the students were eager to find out how they did. The professor told them that he was only able to award one "A" out of the entire class. It was the student who finished early. His answer:

"What chair?

How the elephant smells depends on at which end you stand.

You don't need to see any identification.

desertscorpion
03-17-2006, 12:53 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWG

Nice story, too bad it's just an urban legend.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

http://www.ultrasabers.com
Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Guess I didn't know that, but it's Truth stands even if Captain Crunch said it.

naashar
03-17-2006, 12:53 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by desertscorpion

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by naashar

Thankee, Sai-Xwing. Besides, by the way that both Obi and Yoda "handled" the Sith Lightning, they gotta know something of the Dark.

Either that, or rubber heeled boots.

You don't need to see any identification.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Naashar,

I would definitely think so...initially... but, the darkside is just the evil side of the same coin. Electricity courses through all living things. An electrical current can be used to restart someone's heart or to stop it. Most things used in excess or used the wrong way can hurt or kill. Moreover, Jedi Masters have even expressed that subtle control of the force is much more difficult than just an outpouring of raw power.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Our point exactly! It is the using of the power that determines its "good" or "ill" effects.

You don't need to see any identification.

desertscorpion
03-17-2006, 12:59 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by naashar

Well played, sir; however, if this discourse happened in his Math class, I'm afraid that it was a D+ answer...[:D]

There is another school of thought, however, that states that Dark is not necessarily the abscense of light, but the presence of all color. Which is an absolute truth, in my opinion.

Note the prolific use of "qualifiers" in all of my posts. I'm inclined. In my opinion,. There is another school of thought. I point these out to illustrate that these are my contentions, not the only ones to be held. I'm more than open and accepting of others' opinions, but not necessarily to change my thinking. I love the fact that we can discuss for discussion's sake; it's not important to me that we agree, but that we understand from whence we come.

Same school, same department, same professor:

"Class, I want you to think of the sum total of the lessons of this course. Now, I want you, for your final exam, to write an essay on the true existence of this chair, using any of the lessons we've covered. Your time begins..now!"

The students then furiously began to write out their essays; some touting Freud, others Jung, still others Skinner. Only one took a contemplative minute to think, jot his answer, turn in his paper and leave. All the other students had to stay to the end to complete their exam.

The next day, the students were eager to find out how they did. The professor told them that he was only able to award one "A" out of the entire class. It was the student who finished early. His answer:

"What chair?

How the elephant smells depends on at which end you stand.

You don't need to see any identification.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Black being the presence of all colors is a property of pigments - not light. Totally different. When mixing and everything. Different properties.

naashar
03-17-2006, 01:03 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Guess I didn't know that, but it's Truth stands even if Captain Crunch said it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hey, the Cap'n is a wise man. Just don't ask to touch his hat.

He's sensitive.

You don't need to see any identification.

naashar
03-17-2006, 01:08 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

Black being the presence of all colors is a property of pigments - not light. Totally different. When mixing and everything. Different properties.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


I agree, which is why I said "Dark". Dark can be defined by light, pigment, intent.

Man, this is getting good! Keep it going...

You don't need to see any identification.

UltraSWG
03-17-2006, 01:09 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by desertscorpion

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWG

Nice story, too bad it's just an urban legend.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

http://www.ultrasabers.com
Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Guess I didn't know that, but it's Truth stands even if Captain Crunch said it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Truth all depends on one's point of view. If you ask a scientist what "darkness" is, he will likely explain that it's the absence of light. If you ask an artist, they might reply that it's the mixture of Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow. It really depends on what you're talking about, pigments or wavelengths. A black shirt is black because it doesn't reflect light, it absorbs it. That doesn't mean there's an absence of light shining on the shirt.

"Cold" can be measured and cold can be produced both physically and chemically, therefore, it does exist. Cold is the natural state of all things until altered by radiation.

"Evil" is something created by society, therefore, it exists. The concept of the "noble savage" is seen in many primitive cultures where power and ambition is not condusive to survival. To say that evil is the absence of God is to say that evil is the natural state of man, which is simply not true.

http://www.ultrasabers.com
Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity

naashar
03-17-2006, 01:13 PM
Anyone else smell that elephant? Man, I think I'll stand at the other end, w/Ultra...

You don't need to see any identification.

Firebird21
03-17-2006, 01:18 PM
Bueller...

Bueller...

Bueller...

Thread Index (http://www.thecustomsabershop.com/sabers/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=577)
FAQ (http://www.thecustomsabershop.com/sabers/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=552)
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/images/smilies/vader1.gifhttp://www.gaownersclub.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_sabre.gif

desertscorpion
03-17-2006, 01:29 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by naashar

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Guess I didn't know that, but it's Truth stands even if Captain Crunch said it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hey, the Cap'n is a wise man. Just don't ask to touch his hat.

He's sensitive.

You don't need to see any identification.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Geez! I know. I'll never do that again! Personally, I liked Smedley the Peanut Butter Elephant

naashar
03-17-2006, 01:32 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

Geez! I know. I'll never do that again! Personally, I liked Smedley the Peanut Butter Elephant
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

SMEDLEY!!!

Man, when I catch my breath, I'll post something intellegent...too funny.

You don't need to see any identification.

desertscorpion
03-17-2006, 01:48 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWG

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by desertscorpion

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWG

Nice story, too bad it's just an urban legend.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

http://www.ultrasabers.com
Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Guess I didn't know that, but it's Truth stands even if Captain Crunch said it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Truth all depends on one's point of view. If you ask a scientist what "darkness" is, he will likely explain that it's the absence of light. If you ask an artist, they might reply that it's the mixture of Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow. It really depends on what you're talking about, pigments or wavelengths. A black shirt is black because it doesn't reflect light, it absorbs it. That doesn't mean there's an absence of light shining on the shirt.

"Cold" can be measured and cold can be produced both physically and chemically, therefore, it does exist. Cold is the natural state of all things until altered by radiation.

"Evil" is something created by society, therefore, it exists. The concept of the "noble savage" is seen in many primitive cultures where power and ambition is not condusive to survival. To say that evil is the absence of God is to say that evil is the natural state of man, which is simply not true.

http://www.ultrasabers.com
Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

So you don't believe in absolute truth? I'm not talking about subjective truth. If I get run over by a train, it really doesn't matter if I thought it was a stuffed animal.

Oh yeah, so what units is cold measured in? (Not degrees!)

xwingband
03-17-2006, 01:59 PM
Whoa... this all started from a darth maul topic.[:0]

<center>http://www.geocities.com/ghost_soldiers_unit/gs_banner_trans2.gif
www.dewbackwing.com</center>

virus692
03-17-2006, 02:01 PM
Here is one for you ...


What is Gray?

VIrus 692- [img=left] http://e.deviantart.com/emoticons/j/jedi.gif[/img=left]
Life Liberty and the prusuit of insainaity!

naashar
03-17-2006, 02:02 PM
I believe the standard unit of measure for cold is the "brr".

And "Gray" is the surname of a long-lived art patron.


You don't need to see any identification.

desertscorpion
03-17-2006, 02:03 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by xwingband

Whoa... this all started from a darth maul topic.[:0]

<center>http://www.geocities.com/ghost_soldiers_unit/gs_banner_trans2.gif
www.dewbackwing.com</center>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hey, it's cool. It's just a discussion. Everybody has a right to their own beliefs, but if their not grounded then it's just an opinion or an uninformed decision. You know, I might decide to go out and murder someone, but I'm not going to wrap my beliefs around my actions and say murder is just a "point of view."

naashar
03-17-2006, 02:15 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

Hey, it's cool. It's just a discussion. Everybody has a right to their own beliefs, but if their not grounded then it's just an opinion or an uninformed decision. You know, I might decide to go out and murder someone, but I'm not going to wrap my beliefs around my actions and say murder is just a "point of view."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

'zactly!!! We must have a frame of reference in order to discuss, but if e'ryone ain't at the same museum..well, I'm not quite sure where I was going with that, but you get the idea.

You don't need to see any identification.

desertscorpion
03-17-2006, 03:11 PM
The natural state of man is evil, that's exactly why patience, love, kindness, unselfishness, keeping a marriage together, being kind to your sister, truth, justice, and the American way, and pretty much any kind of true goodness takes so much work. Being evil and selfish is easy, swift, seductive, consuming, and comes quite naturally. But, that doesn't make evil right or subjective. Murder is always murder even if a society feels like legalizing it.

naashar
03-17-2006, 04:03 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by desertscorpion

The natural state of man is evil, that's exactly why patience, love, kindness, unselfishness, keeping a marriage together, being kind to your sister, truth, justice, and the American way, and pretty much any kind of true goodness takes so much work. Being evil and selfish is easy, swift, seductive, consuming, and comes quite naturally. But, that doesn't make evil right or subjective. Murder is always murder even if a society feels like legalizing it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

See? That's what I'm talking about. I think it's perfectly fine for you to feel that way about Man; there are others who subscribe to the belief that Man is mostly good with a tendency to do evil things. Which is the central theme of Redemption (falling from grace and being forgiven), which, just so happens to be the central story of Star Wars!

Man, I love it when a thread comes together! So satisfying. [:D]


You don't need to see any identification.

desertscorpion
03-17-2006, 04:18 PM
naashar,

You truly are a mediator and peace maker. [;)] Thanks. Ok, I give. I'll just have to agree to disagree. [:p]

That's probably why I always liked the sith in the star wars films. I always felt it was evil versus confused, rather than evil versus good. The good guys couldn't ever make up their minds what to believe about right, wrong, and the force. So I could only stomach lies and half-truths from the sith, because that was their nature. And most of the time they were actually more truthful than the jedi. And even if the sith were evil, at least they were takin' care o' business. The jedi just didn't deliver most of the time. True good always delivers... in the end.

naashar
03-17-2006, 04:51 PM
I feel ya. I always had more respect for those, for good or ill, with Conviction. S#!t or get off The Pot, I say...

You don't need to see any identification.

desertscorpion
03-17-2006, 07:43 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 987654321a

hey do you guys like darth maul or darth vader better?

The Dark Side will kill you
www.starwarscustoms.bravehost.com
http://www.imageuploader.org/uploads/598a8186b2.gif
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

After derailing this thread so much, I feel I owe 987654321 an answer to the initial topic. Well... ok, with a slight detour first. I think I read a comic that had Obi doing the slash in mid-air instead of landing, winking, blowing Maul a kiss, and finally cutting him in half. I was pretty offended by that scene. I mean, I could say that Maul just finished taking on two dudes at the same time, was blinded by pride, and was caught off guard, but that scene ended so pathetically. My grandma could've caned him to death in the time it took Obi to swing his saber.

Ok so back to the original question. Definitely apples and oranges. Darth Maul was the baddest lookin' dude that I've ever seen in star wars, including the old sith lords stories (In fact without that conceptual artist (his name alludes me) that came up with Maul we'd probably have had a bad guy that looked like Kano from Mortal Kombat or some crap. That artist was the man!) And he seemed to be supremely skilled at straight hand to hand. Imagine how the jedi are potty trained to be well rounded in etiquette, know multiple languages, walk old ladies across the street, blah, blah, blah. Well, Darth Maul was trained from the same young age to do one thing...kill!

And then there's Vader. With Vader I always think that even at his greatest, we're just seeing about 20% of what he could have been. I just imagine somebody like a young Michael Jordan being drafted into the NBA and getting mamed (sp?) in a car wreck after one week of practice. And even after all of that, Vader is still bad to the bone! Then, in my personal view, Vader never whole heartedly accepted the darkside - even at his worst. Which is to say, I don't think he was ever a thoroughly bad guy. He just fell in with the wrong crowd - unsupportive comrades followed by a manipulative dicatator. But, let's just say you could have an unmamed Anakin with no shred of goodness left in his heart (or pretty much Anakin with Sidious's brain)..... Whoa! You'd have a Sith Lord of Sith Lords! Or....if Anakin never fell to the darkside....wow! You'd have a jedi of jedi's! Either way he'd chew nails and spit fire!

Ok, ok, ok, so when it comes down to it I like Vader more, because I'm an older guy and grew up with the original movies(and you can still get those drinking glasses on ebay, by the way), and because they waxed Maul before we could even shake hands. BUT (and I mean a very big BUT! [:p]), Every sith in my mind I've ever created from the ground up, for my stories, was way more like Maul in appearance than vader, AND Maul gets my vote for the coolness factor or I guess I mean cool looking.

Vader = Aston Martin (fast...and always classy), Maul = Ferrari Enzo (just plain bad!)

GFORCE13
03-18-2006, 01:45 AM
Darth Maul was Nice till he had to Split[:p] but except no substitue "Arise Lord Vader" for ever he will rule my destiny!!!![8D]

May the Force
Be with You

Marc E.

naashar
03-18-2006, 09:24 AM
Well said, Desertscorpion. Brava!

I totally agree with you on the Anakin take. It was like, even half-a$$ed, we never really got to see what Ani could do.

Except whine. That, and the tendency to Lose and Cause to Lose Limbs will forever remain his legacy.

You don't need to see any identification.

UltraSWG
03-18-2006, 12:14 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by desertscorpion
Hey, it's cool. It's just a discussion. Everybody has a right to their own beliefs, but if their not grounded then it's just an opinion or an uninformed decision. You know, I might decide to go out and murder someone, but I'm not going to wrap my beliefs around my actions and say murder is just a "point of view."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

But murder is a point of view. When I was in the Army, they taught us to kill, even though the 10 commandments states plain as day "Thou shalt not kill". However, we don't consider killing another human being "murder" so long as it's an order given by a superior in the military, or any other myriad of reasons. There's even killing in the Bible, but David didn't "murder" Goliath and God didn't "murder" all the people in Sodom and Gomorra.

Were the good Christians "murdering" witches, pagans, muslims, and non believers? They didn't seem to think so. In their point of view, they were doing God's work.

But others in this world would consider murder to be any killing of another human and would rather die themselves than commit murder. Even in this own country we can't decide what is murder and what isn't, just talk to a lawyer.

As for man being inherently evil, no, we are not. At our most basic level, we are very good natured until influenced by outside sources. Just look at the Aborigine, they are a primitive people with no concept of God. In fact, you may call them sinners because they worship idols. However, they are a very good natured people who respect the land and don't war with each other. They are the ones after which the term "noble savage" was coined.

Were the native Americans "evil"? Are Tibeten monks evil? Christians have used that label time and again to justify conquering "pagans". If absence of god = evil, then it means free reign on all non-christian lands, so it makes a good excuse for a conquering people to use.

Oh, BTW, the encyclopedia Britannica says that temperature is "measure of hotness or coldness expressed in terms of any of several arbitrary scales" So coldness can indeed be measured.

http://www.ultrasabers.com
Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity

naashar
03-18-2006, 12:24 PM
Right! The unit of measure, as aforementioned, is the "brr".

Ultra, you are absolutely right. The frame of reference is oh, so important. That's why there can't be an absolute truth, if one is indeed taking an entire view of a morality, as morals are certainly subjective.

You don't need to see any identification.

987654321a
03-18-2006, 01:15 PM
guys what about darth nemesis?

The Dark Side will kill you
www.starwarscustoms.bravehost.com
http://www.imageuploader.org/uploads/598a8186b2.gif

naashar
03-18-2006, 01:37 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 987654321a

guys what about darth nemesis?

The Dark Side will kill you
www.starwarscustoms.bravehost.com
http://www.imageuploader.org/uploads/598a8186b2.gif
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Not really familiar, 987...mayhaps someone can give me a summation of the particulars concerning this Mr. Nemesis...

I mean, he's got a good name; all the kats that I know named "Nemesis" are pretty thorough: Nemesis Enforcer (G.I.Joe, Golobulus' homeboy), Bricktop from "Snatch" ("Do you know the meaning of the word 'nemesis'?"), et al.

What's ya boy's story?

You don't need to see any identification.

987654321a
03-18-2006, 02:10 PM
he's like darth maul but hes blue, instead of red heres a pic
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2029/darthnemisis2pic0cf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The Dark Side will kill you
www.starwarscustoms.bravehost.com
http://www.imageuploader.org/uploads/598a8186b2.gif

naashar
03-18-2006, 03:16 PM
Ohhh, he's abso-tively dreamy! *sigh*

The fluff is good; what's the substance? Any backstory? Who's he killed/trained/cleaned house for? Are his rates reasonable, or should I shop around? Talk to me, man...

You don't need to see any identification.

UltraSWG
03-18-2006, 03:30 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 987654321a

he's like darth maul but hes blue, instead of red heres a pic
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2029/darthnemisis2pic0cf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The Dark Side will kill you
www.starwarscustoms.bravehost.com
http://www.imageuploader.org/uploads/598a8186b2.gif
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

He's fan fiction, nothing more. That pic is just a pic of Darth Maul edited in photoshop.

http://www.ultrasabers.com
Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity

naashar
03-18-2006, 03:39 PM
Fan fiction, eh? I feel so dirty...[V]

You don't need to see any identification.

xwingband
03-18-2006, 03:49 PM
Yes, fanfics can be so bad... it's the dark spot in every fandom. Only thing worse is furry fiction.

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naashar
03-18-2006, 03:55 PM
Hold me? The violation factor is high right about now! I was all set to wax philosophical.

You don't need to see any identification.

987654321a
03-18-2006, 05:15 PM
yesh but i thought he was cool ultru
and it is kinda obvious that he is fan fiction, cuse he was never in any new sw movie. or actually anything relating to sw

The Dark Side will kill you
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UltraSWG
03-18-2006, 05:49 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 987654321a

yesh but i thought he was cool ultru
and it is kinda obvious that he is fan fiction, cuse he was never in any new sw movie. or actually anything relating to sw<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Actually, it's not all that obvious. The Expanded Universe contains many characters never seen in the movies and most people don't know them. Many people who hear 'Darth Nemesis' would likely assume he's in the EU somewhere so I'm just setting it straight.

In reality, he's not even fanfic (doesn't rate that high), there's no fiction written about him, he was just used as a backstory for a custom saber.

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Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity

desertscorpion
03-20-2006, 09:17 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWG

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by desertscorpion
Hey, it's cool. It's just a discussion. Everybody has a right to their own beliefs, but if their not grounded then it's just an opinion or an uninformed decision. You know, I might decide to go out and murder someone, but I'm not going to wrap my beliefs around my actions and say murder is just a "point of view."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

But murder is a point of view. When I was in the Army, they taught us to kill, even though the 10 commandments states plain as day "Thou shalt not kill". However, we don't consider killing another human being "murder" so long as it's an order given by a superior in the military, or any other myriad of reasons. There's even killing in the Bible, but David didn't "murder" Goliath and God didn't "murder" all the people in Sodom and Gomorra.

Were the good Christians "murdering" witches, pagans, muslims, and non believers? They didn't seem to think so. In their point of view, they were doing God's work.

But others in this world would consider murder to be any killing of another human and would rather die themselves than commit murder. Even in this own country we can't decide what is murder and what isn't, just talk to a lawyer.

As for man being inherently evil, no, we are not. At our most basic level, we are very good natured until influenced by outside sources. Just look at the Aborigine, they are a primitive people with no concept of God. In fact, you may call them sinners because they worship idols. However, they are a very good natured people who respect the land and don't war with each other. They are the ones after which the term "noble savage" was coined.

Were the native Americans "evil"? Are Tibeten monks evil? Christians have used that label time and again to justify conquering "pagans". If absence of god = evil, then it means free reign on all non-christian lands, so it makes a good excuse for a conquering people to use.

Oh, BTW, the encyclopedia Britannica says that temperature is "measure of hotness or coldness expressed in terms of any of several arbitrary scales" So coldness can indeed be measured.

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Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I, too, served in the military. I was qualified in the used of deadly force, too. Killing for the army, or police, or as an agent of the government or of justice or out of self-defense is different, unless you know it to be an unlawful order, then their blood is on your hands. You know this. This is clearly stated in the Bible too, even accidental killings are addressed. Cities of refuge were even created for people who accidentally killed someone. No topic is left uncovered. And there are some people who can't stomach even disciplining their children, much less killing. Maybe those people shouldn't be soldiers - or parents. Justice must be carried out by the government, and discipline by parents. The Bible is pretty clear that your own conscience will stand as a witness indicting you or defending you on that day of judgement. Also, nations or governments, as a whole, are judged by God for immoral orders, even if the individuals who carried out unlawful orders where unaware.

As for an egalitarian aboriginal culture that has real peace outside of God - doesn't exist. Never has. Never will. Tree huggers have been peddlin' that line for a long time and nobody buys it. Just read about Papua New Guinea.

Christians, led by the Spirit, would never carry out the crusades or the salem witch trials.

That's a pretty loose definition for temperature to say the very least. Temperature is not even a measure of heat, much less cold. It's an expression of the average heat of an object or system.
Heat is measured in joules or some other unit of energy. It's all based on the movement of molecules. Hotter and cold are just expressions which mean "more energy than" or "less energy than." There is no unit for cold.

naashar
03-20-2006, 09:54 AM
Surprise, surprise..I, too am a product of this fine nation's defense force; alas, as a Sailor, I was given the moniker "push-button killer", as if that would lessen the degree of responsibility. I agree with you, desertscorpion, as to the knowing what we are getting into when we sign that paper, when we go thru MEPS, when we take that Oath, solemn as it is. We are/were continuing to do the things that ensure our nation's way of life is preserved, that our nation actually survives. Whether we do it from a castle battlement or a $100 million dollar cruiser, it is the same. Whether it's a flintlock or a M-203, it still brings death to whom we choose, and, as a consequence, criticism as to the necessity of such acts. It's just the initial level of Civility has changed..along with the Times. Right now, we are swimming in the age of Monotheism, regardless of what we call Him/Her/It, brought about by a few skilled propagandists and spin doctors..before this, it was Polythism, before that, it was..well, we actually don't know, because that His-Story has been "lost". I'm sure there would've been a whole lot of folks that, had they the means to peak in on our times, would have thought us Lost and Confused. Again, the Relativity rears its head..

Damn you, Scorp', for making me think this early in the week, this early in the day.

Jokes, baby...love ya like a play-cousin.

You don't need to see any identification.

desertscorpion
03-20-2006, 10:57 AM
I was a sailor, too![^] Fast attack, Pearl. I was an IC man. Tis true, tis true. Bannana brocolli milkshakes and fingerpaintings seem to be the order of the day for the world today.

Firebird21
03-20-2006, 11:01 AM
I salute all of you who served in our military.

I just wish I had the balls to do it too!

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naashar
03-20-2006, 12:13 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by desertscorpion

I was a sailor, too![^] Fast attack, Pearl. I was an IC man. Tis true, tis true. Bannana brocolli milkshakes and fingerpaintings seem to be the order of the day for the world today.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I knew it was somethin' 'boutcha, Shipmate!! Perry class frigate and John Rogers class destroyer, Mayport FL. Boatswain's Mate, Master Helmsman..got a NAM for it, actually. Actually got to decommission the Oliver Hazard Perry (FFG-7) and finished out on the John Rogers (DD-983). Way to go, SubDawg. Fair winds and Following Seas...

You don't need to see any identification.

desertscorpion
03-20-2006, 12:52 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by naashar

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by desertscorpion

I was a sailor, too![^] Fast attack, Pearl. I was an IC man. Tis true, tis true. Bannana brocolli milkshakes and fingerpaintings seem to be the order of the day for the world today.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I knew it was somethin' 'boutcha, Shipmate!! Perry class frigate and John Rogers class destroyer, Mayport FL. Boatswain's Mate, Master Helmsman..got a NAM for it, actually. Actually got to decommission the Oliver Hazard Perry (FFG-7) and finished out on the John Rogers (DD-983). Way to go, SubDawg. Fair winds and Following Seas...

You don't need to see any identification.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

That's pretty respectable! USS Honolulu SSN718. A very decorated sub during my years. I did well, too. Had a great time. Got the T-shirt and the mug. Let me know if you want any more details.

naashar
03-20-2006, 01:15 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by desertscorpion


That's pretty respectable! USS Honolulu SSN718. A very decorated sub during my years. I did well, too. Had a great time. Got the T-shirt and the mug. Let me know if you want any more details.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Of course I do! Didn't know there were many of us out here, and we gotta stick together. Where did you Boot? I was one of the last classes to come out of San Diego. Being a subdawg, I'm betting you were there too, at least for your a-school. Man, Volunteer Duty: 'Nuff respect, shipmate!

I loved every minute of it, too, except on sub-hunting evolutions. Damn, you guys are good. Mike Mike Mike!

You don't need to see any identification.

UltraSWG
03-20-2006, 01:24 PM
Alright, Scorp, it sounds less and less like you're actually interested in an open minded discussion and more like you're trying to push your God as the only truth.

By your own definition, Tibeten monks are evil, the Native Americans were evil, basically anyone who doesn't worship your God is evil. So why would you listen to me or anyone else, we're just evil to you.

Labeling a people as "evil" based on their religion has been the excuse of many conquerors throughout our history. More people have died in the name of God than for any other reason and it's all for the same reason, "thwarting evil".

It is frightening to think that an educated society would adhere to the principle that "absence of God = evil". I would have hoped that tolerance was the message of the modern age, not bigotry.

http://www.ultrasabers.com
Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity

naashar
03-20-2006, 01:46 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWG

Alright, Scorp, it sounds less and less like you're actually interested in an open minded discussion and more like you're trying to push your God as the only truth.

By your own definition, Tibeten monks are evil, the Native Americans were evil, basically anyone who doesn't worship your God is evil. So why would you listen to me or anyone else, we're just evil to you.

Labeling a people as "evil" based on their religion has been the excuse of many conquerors throughout our history. More people have died in the name of God than for any other reason and it's all for the same reason, "thwarting evil".

It is frightening to think that an educated society would adhere to the principle that "absence of God = evil". I would have hoped that tolerance was the message of the modern age, not bigotry.

http://www.ultrasabers.com
Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

But, don't forget..it's not an entirely new thing, and there's No Thing New Under The Sun. Up to and including those who are committed to the point of non-inclusion. Elijah was but one example. Besides, I personally wouldn't fault 'scorp for listening to some Evil; the greatest spouter of the scripture is Satan, in some circles. Know thy Enemy, and all that rot...

Ultimately, I don't think any one of us here is qualified to start and/or lead some kind of Holy War, but I love the fact that we are passionate enough to express ourselves concretely, but open enough to allow for each other.

Or, am I "wrong"? I have been before, you know. Oh, it's true! [;)]

You don't need to see any identification.

desertscorpion
03-20-2006, 01:46 PM
Hey man, it's just my belief. About every religion is inherently exclusive and says it's the "only way." Christianity is not an exception. Do I look at the world through Christian goggles? Yes, I do. You can believe you're a fire engine, if you want. You have that right. But, if you want me to recognize every religion as an authentic way to heaven, I don't think so. Jesus was narrow minded on this to. I guess I'm narrow minded.

naashar
03-20-2006, 01:53 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by desertscorpion

Hey man, it's just my belief. About every religion is inherently exclusive and says it's the "only way." Christianity is not an exception. Do I look at the world through Christian goggles? Yes, I do. You can believe you're a fire engine, if you want. You have that right. But, if you want me to recognize every religion as an authentic way to heaven, I don't think so. Jesus was narrow minded on this to. I guess I'm narrow minded.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

He said FIRE ENGINE!! lol But, you get it, shipmate. Diff'rent Strokes to move the world..besides, if we had no means to compare, how would we know what to believe for ourselves? We need the Variety in order to make the Choice, right? Muhammad was even more exclusive, and here we have the largest growing faith in the World. The Mundo, baby. That's huge. We have to ask the question, especially of ourselves, "Is what I'm doing bringing me closer to my Maker?" If you can answer "Yes" on a daily basis...the work is done.

In my opinion, anyway! [;)]

You don't need to see any identification.

desertscorpion
03-20-2006, 02:07 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by naashar

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by desertscorpion


That's pretty respectable! USS Honolulu SSN718. A very decorated sub during my years. I did well, too. Had a great time. Got the T-shirt and the mug. Let me know if you want any more details.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Of course I do! Didn't know there were many of us out here, and we gotta stick together. Where did you Boot? I was one of the last classes to come out of San Diego. Being a subdawg, I'm betting you were there too, at least for your a-school. Man, Volunteer Duty: 'Nuff respect, shipmate!

I loved every minute of it, too, except on sub-hunting evolutions. Damn, you guys are good. Mike Mike Mike!

You don't need to see any identification.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Boot out of Orlando. One of the last there, too. Nuke ET drop. Went to the fleet Striker. Deck div. for a year (I never want to see a paint brush again!). Struck IC. 2 WestPacs and 1 EastPac. Saw Canada, San Dog, Alameda, Australlia, Thailand, Singapore, Japan, Okinawa, and about all of Hawaii. 1 NUC, 2 MUCs, 2 or 3 Battle E's (I forget),Expeditionary, and some other ribbon thingys. Battle stations Helmsman. Goldenshellback and some other "attaboys." That was all in one tour. But we paid for it. We got volunteered for every two bit job that came along. It was a good time, though. I served with some of the greatest men I've ever met.

naashar
03-20-2006, 02:48 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

Boot out of Orlando. One of the last there, too. Nuke ET drop. Went to the fleet Striker. Deck div. for a year (I never want to see a paint brush again!). Struck IC. 2 WestPacs and 1 EastPac. Saw Canada, San Dog, Alameda, Australlia, Thailand, Singapore, Japan, Okinawa, and about all of Hawaii. 1 NUC, 2 MUCs, 2 or 3 Battle E's (I forget),Expeditionary, and some other ribbon thingys. Battle stations Helmsman. Goldenshellback and some other "attaboys." That was all in one tour. But we paid for it. We got volunteered for every two bit job that came along. It was a good time, though. I served with some of the greatest men I've ever met.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

That's what I know. I wouldn't change a thing, m'self. I still pipe "sweepers" and "dinner for the crew" on my bos'n's pipe. I wanted to strike MA, even was AMAA on board, but alas, it was not to be. That whole decom thing got in the way...and I left the John Rogers before our EastPac!! But, I was accepted into B.O.O.S.T., and was subsequently hated for it! lol

lol@ the paintbrush! If I never see another needlegun or Primer Green, I shall die a happy man. Some of those Nukes are intense, man. Being out of Mayport, we did mostly drug interdiction, under those Coasties! But, I was able to hit up a Great Lakes Tour before the decom. Those Canadians are hospitable, and I had the pleasure of visiting Milwaukee during Oktoberfest. I still have dreams..or, are those flashbacks? Especially about the O.P.P.E.!

You don't need to see any identification.

UltraSWG
03-20-2006, 02:50 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by desertscorpion

Hey man, it's just my belief. About every religion is inherently exclusive and says it's the "only way." Christianity is not an exception. Do I look at the world through Christian goggles? Yes, I do. You can believe you're a fire engine, if you want. You have that right. But, if you want me to recognize every religion as an authentic way to heaven, I don't think so. Jesus was narrow minded on this to. I guess I'm narrow minded.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

You can believe whatever you want and I respect that. I never asked you to believe every religion is true, I just don't like you calling everyone else evil.

You're saying that everyone who doesn't worship your God is evil. Evil, did you read that? Evil.

See, I'm a very tolerant person, I appreciate and study all religious view points. But you are specifically stating that anyone who doesn't believe the same way you do is evil, which is pure bigotry.

Jesus never said the Jews were evil and if he were alive today, he wouldn't go around calling buddhists a bunch of evil doers, no, that is a practice that christians may do, but it is not Christ-like.

I suppose if we ever encounter alien life, you will immediately believe they are evil if they don't worship Jesus?

Remember, only a Sith deals in absolutes.

http://www.ultrasabers.com
Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity

desertscorpion
03-20-2006, 02:59 PM
naashar,

That's pretty cool. Good times. I daydream about those days from time to time, too. Love the stories. Thanks, Shipmate.

naashar
03-20-2006, 03:05 PM
Way to tie it up, Ultra! That's it; Ask the Questions, man. That's how we get the Answers.

But, to be fair, if Jesus was here today, not only would he have his ministry, he'd also be a powerful politico. His world was one where religion and politics were interdependant and intertwined.

Interesting, considering that the U.S. prides itself on separation of Church and State. So, no, He wouldn't necessarily label a Buddhist as "evil", simply because He'd know that He'd need their vote! Hearts and Minds first...a$$es soon follow.

You don't need to see any identification.

naashar
03-20-2006, 03:09 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by desertscorpion

naashar,

That's pretty cool. Good times. I daydream about those days from time to time, too. Love the stories. Thanks, Shipmate.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

You got that.

*ding, ding* *ding, ding* Desertscorpion, departing.

Good times.

You don't need to see any identification.

Nightwing
03-20-2006, 03:22 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by desertscorpionUSS Honolulu SSN718.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Ha! I was born in Honolulu!


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by naashar

But, to be fair, if Jesus was here today, not only would he have his ministry, he'd also be a powerful politico. His world was one where religion and politics were interdependant and intertwined.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Absolutely not. Jesus totally separated himself from the government. He had no reason to be involved, as he was not interested in worldly political power. Heck, Satan threw the whole world in his face, and he ignored it.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWG

By your own definition, Tibeten monks are evil, the Native Americans were evil, basically anyone who doesn't worship your God is evil. So why would you listen to me or anyone else, we're just evil to you.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Not really. Technically, we (Christians) are evil as well, just by our own nature.
As the Bible says, "All men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." No one deserves to go to Heaven. Lucky for us, Jesus found a way so that we can have mercy, even though we don't deserve it.

We don't think we're any better than you, we just have a helping hand.

desertscorpion
03-20-2006, 03:29 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWG

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by desertscorpion

Hey man, it's just my belief. About every religion is inherently exclusive and says it's the "only way." Christianity is not an exception. Do I look at the world through Christian goggles? Yes, I do. You can believe you're a fire engine, if you want. You have that right. But, if you want me to recognize every religion as an authentic way to heaven, I don't think so. Jesus was narrow minded on this to. I guess I'm narrow minded.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

You can believe whatever you want and I respect that. I never asked you to believe every religion is true, I just don't like you calling everyone else evil.

You're saying that everyone who doesn't worship your God is evil. Evil, did you read that? Evil.

See, I'm a very tolerant person, I appreciate and study all religious view points. But you are specifically stating that anyone who doesn't believe the same way you do is evil, which is pure bigotry.

Jesus never said the Jews were evil and if he were alive today, he wouldn't go around calling buddhists a bunch of evil doers, no, that is a practice that christians may do, but it is not Christ-like.

I suppose if we ever encounter alien life, you will immediately believe they are evil if they don't worship Jesus?

Remember, only a Sith deals in absolutes.

http://www.ultrasabers.com
Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

The Bible is clear that no one is good, in and of themselves. And that only God is righteous. That none are deserving of life. And that Christians are not deserving, just forgiven. Even a Christian needs to stay constantly plugged into God spiritually and can take no credit for good deeds. And can only do good through God's empowerment. Of course, you have to understand the Bible's definition of good, and that is, a truly selfless act with no interest of reciprocation and no trace of pride. I think we all do "good" deeds from a worldly standpoint, but it's human nature to mentally pat ourselves on the back. We think, "I'm a pretty good guy." Those type of good deeds abound. So from that definition I'd agree with you wholeheartedly. But, God pretty much says that when tested by fire these worldly good deeds don't measure up. What's the standard? Our good deeds versus God's absolute perfection. No one measure's up. Yes, Jesus came to save not to condemn. It took a Dying God to save us. That message is unique. Every other religion says, "Try harder and maybe your good will outweigh your bad." But, we were already under condemnation. And, Jesus, spoke more about punishment and hell than all other scriptures combined.

naashar
03-20-2006, 03:47 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Absolutely not. Jesus totally separated himself from the government. He had no reason to be involved, as he was not interested in worldly political power. Heck, Satan threw the whole world in his face, and he ignored it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Look it up, playboy, and go beyond King James. Part of the whole dust-up behind Jesus was because of the times into which he was born. Traditional Jewish people were the only people to have God as their historical Protagonist (written from the point of view that God was a major mover, not an observer, in their history) and they had two, count 'em, TWO leaders..one spiritual (high priest type) and one worldly. Strength through Establishment. Two-pillars. Jesus was the first in their his-story to claim to be both in one. The Jews of that day were not strangers to the Messiah concept; it's just they believed in moving effectively in the World as it existed, and politics helped them do that. I may be going over your head a bit, so I'll keep it relevent. The reason Rome allowed Him to be crucified was that he was claiming to be the "spiritual" leader (Son of Man/God), and his brother James was the "Worldly" pillar. It's just that the Jews offered him up as the "worldly" pillar, which placated the Romans, current landlords of the day. You can find that in any Bible translation, any accurate historical account, any Discovery Channel special! I'm led to believe your view is strictly Scripture (and your interpretation thereof) based; nothing wrong with it, but I wouldn't lead you astray. No reason to. Besides, Jesus was part of the spiritual sect that secreted away the Dead Sea scrolls. It was already established; Christianity is a direct by-product of Peter and Paul and their attempts to get the "Philistines" of the day into their belief system.

I know, it's shocking; most wake-up calls are.

You don't need to see any identification.

xwingband
03-20-2006, 03:57 PM
Whoa boy this topic keeps taking turns... keep it civil. Religion is another hot-button topic.

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naashar
03-20-2006, 04:03 PM
You're right, X-Wing. So, to reiterate:

Maul for the Stones, Vader for the Lines.

*see pg 1 for the full explanation*

I had to keep it relevant! [;)]



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Nightwing
03-20-2006, 04:05 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by naashar

I know, it's shocking; most wake-up calls are.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">No, it's really not.
I'm not sure what your point was there...
My point is that Jesus never sought after political power, nor did he encourage his followers to do so.

In fact, it was because the Church and the State mixed powers that we had the Crusades and other such things.

I'm a supporter of the Separation of Church and State, just not the same definition that many people have.
I do not believe it's wrong for students to have a Bible study in public school. I believe it's wrong for the Church and State's powers to overlap. The phrase "Separation of Curch and State" did not arise in America. It came about during the remormation, because the Catholic Church was gaining immense political power, and the government was gaining power over the church. What resulted was total governmental control over the all parts of life, even belief. That totally contradicts the Bible, which states that no one should be forced to convert; it must be of their own consent.


Oh, and BTW, the Discovery Channel is a horrible source for anything Biblical. I've seen multiple scientific errors on that show, Mysteries of the Bible.

UltraSWG
03-20-2006, 04:06 PM
Ok, using the Bible as the basis of all debate is going to turn into a circular argument. I kinda thought we were going to discuss things outside the paradigm and use the Bible or any other scripture as a reference, not a basis of fact.

So basically you're final point is that man is inherently evil because "the Bible says so". I was educated in a Christian private school for many years of my childhood, so I know all the dogma and that isn't what this is about. If I wanted a sermon, I'd go to church.

The original topic was the dubious equation that "absence of god = evil". I asked some simple questions that you haven't answered. I want to address the label that you have implied. That label is "evil". Were the native Americans evil? Answer the question, yes or no? Are buddhists evil? Yes or no? Are the 4/5ths of the earth's population who are not Christian evil? Yes or no?

You said you believe in absolute truth. If that is true, then points of view don't matter and the case of whether or not someone is evil is a simple black and white answer. If you think that answer depends on how you define "evil", then you have proved my argument that point of view matters and there is no universal truth.

Maybe you haven't answered the question because you know that to label someone as evil based on their choice of religion alone is bigotry. Didn't Jesus say something about "Judge not"? So maybe it's not your place to label people?

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Nightwing
03-20-2006, 04:10 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWG

The original topic was the dubious equation that "absence of god = evil". I asked some simple questions that you haven't answered. I want to address the label that you have implied. That label is "evil". Were the native Americans evil? Answer the question, yes or no? Are buddhists evil? Yes or no? Are the 4/5ths of the earth's population who are not Christian evil? Yes or no?

You said you believe in absolute truth. If that is true, then points of view don't matter and the case of whether or not someone is evil is a simple black and white answer. If you think that answer depends on how you define "evil", then you have proved my argument that point of view matters and there is no universal truth.

Maybe you haven't answered the question because you know that to label someone as evil based on their choice of religion alone is bigotry. Didn't Jesus say something about "Judge not"? So maybe it's not your place to label people?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">It's not actually the people themselves, but their actions. Man has an inherently sinful nature. Man also has a conscience, which helps, but that doesn't change their nature.

I'm no "less evil" than a non-christian. I just have a get-in-to-Heaven pass that Jesus handed me when I was five years old.

naashar
03-20-2006, 04:13 PM
Very wise, Ultra. It's the same as saying the Jedi were justifying their existence through the Sith, when the Sith hadn't even been seen for millennia. It'd be a much easier existence if folks said "I'm this in spite of the world"..finding the comfort within despite, not because of, what's around.

I just think that when it's all said and done, there are going to be a lot of very surprised individuals floating around..What if there was an Apocalypse and nobody showed?

You don't need to see any identification.

desertscorpion
03-20-2006, 04:15 PM
Ultra,

I already answered that.

UltraSWG
03-20-2006, 04:20 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by desertscorpion

Ultra,

I already answered that.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Well then please humor me and answer again, because I can't seem to find your straight Yes/No answer.

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Firebird21
03-20-2006, 04:20 PM
My head hurts!

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Well xwing, you tried.

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naashar
03-20-2006, 04:22 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
My point is that Jesus never sought after political power, nor did he encourage his followers to do so.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I agree wholeheartedly, but He was more than aware of the times in which he lived. I understand that a lot of folk are Racist; that doesn't mean I have to be also. Not equating myself w/Jesus, you understand, just bringing my point to bear. He knew what He would have to overcome, and in that knowledge, He also knew what He had to do to effect change. Turn the traditional paradigm on its head in order to get his "flock" to think and make the concious choice to follow Him, in spite of the world, not because of it...

Apologies to all are twofold: I acknowlege my part in keeping this thread going, and I promised myself to never use "paradigm" in a sentence.


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xwingband
03-20-2006, 04:24 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWG
The original topic was the dubious equation that "absence of god = evil". I asked some simple questions that you haven't answered. I want to address the label that you have implied. That label is "evil". Were the native Americans evil? Answer the question, yes or no? Are buddhists evil? Yes or no? Are the 4/5ths of the earth's population who are not Christian evil? Yes or no?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Well... it's not the original topic, but I'll wade into this.

I don't believe in that equation. Anyone that does is a truely bigoted person parading their "saved" Christianity attitude around. There are amazing people that don't believe in god, but does it make them "bad" people? Absolutly not.

It never is black versus white, but I think the view is that you can't have the white without recognition of God and acceptance of him. A lot of religions have common ground but from a Christian view they aren't there yet.

You can be a horrible person, a pagan, a devil whorshiper and repent of your sins and in the end you are "clean" again. I wish there was a person that could objectivly say, "Christianity has it's merit but it just doesn't work for me." That person doesn't exist in my experience. Most often they have "hardened their heart" against the message of the church, which is not the evil of others, and is at its core good values.

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desertscorpion
03-20-2006, 04:24 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by naashar

Very wise, Ultra. It's the same as saying the Jedi were justifying their existence through the Sith, when the Sith hadn't even been seen for millennia. It'd be a much easier existence if folks said "I'm this in spite of the world"..finding the comfort within despite, not because of, what's around.

I just think that when it's all said and done, there are going to be a lot of very surprised individuals floating around..What if there was an Apocalypse and nobody showed?

You don't need to see any identification.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

My understanding of scripture is that Christ came to usher in his kingdom to "reign in the hearts of men." He did say he was the King of the Jews, but he didn't mean an earthly kingdom....yet. His spiritual kingdom. I have to agree with Nightwing on the political thing. That's also why the jews were so let down by him. They wanted someone to oust the Romans. That's probably why Judas betrayed him. He was an Iscariot which was a radical political party. He was waiting for Jesus to buy the swords and kick some butt. That order never came. Jesus, didn't come to do that....this time. I'm not sure what you were trying to say in reguard to James. And the discovery channel and history channel go out of their way to twist the Bible. Every time. They find some guy who's supposedly an expert who got his theological degree from Gubertown Hollow. Then they slip him a ten to say that Jesus was a bi***ual with three wives. Everytime I watch any of that stuff it burns me up. Unfortunately most people don't know enough about the Bible and buy into that stuff. It's always easier to watch a TV show than read scripture. Let's put it this way. If I believed any of that stuff on cable, I wouldn't be a Christian.

UltraSWG
03-20-2006, 04:25 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nightwing

It's not actually the people themselves, but their actions.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Ok, so how could anyone in their right mind say that the Dali Lama is an evil man if evil is based on actions? Last I checked, the Dali Lama isn't Christian, so what else would you have to base your judgments on?

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naashar
03-20-2006, 04:30 PM
So let it be written...so let it be done.

Thanks for chiming in, X. I, for one, love healthy discourse, and when intellegent (yourself, Night, Scorp, etc) folks contribute, we all benefit, come to a higher level of respect, and get a li'l closer as "friends". (there's that mediator thing again, scorp!) [:D]

Speaking as your "friend" would any of you like a bite of my peanutbutter sammich? The crusts are cut off...

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desertscorpion
03-20-2006, 04:32 PM
Naashar,

I'll take a bite of that sandwich after you GET IN MY BELLY!!! [:p]

desertscorpion
03-20-2006, 04:35 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWG

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nightwing

It's not actually the people themselves, but their actions.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Ok, so how could anyone in their right mind say that the Dali Lama is an evil man if evil is based on actions? Last I checked, the Dali Lama isn't Christian, so what else would you have to base your judgments on?

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Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I have absolutely nothing else to base my outlook on. The Bible is the only standard I use. It's water-tight.

naashar
03-20-2006, 04:42 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by desertscorpion

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by naashar

Very wise, Ultra. It's the same as saying the Jedi were justifying their existence through the Sith, when the Sith hadn't even been seen for millennia. It'd be a much easier existence if folks said "I'm this in spite of the world"..finding the comfort within despite, not because of, what's around.

I just think that when it's all said and done, there are going to be a lot of very surprised individuals floating around..What if there was an Apocalypse and nobody showed?



You don't need to see any identification.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

My understanding of scripture is that Christ came to usher in his kingdom to "reign in the hearts of men." He did say he was the King of the Jews, but he didn't mean an earthly kingdom....yet. His spiritual kingdom. I have to agree with Nightwing on the political thing. That's also why the jews were so let down by him. They wanted someone to oust the Romans. That's probably why Judas betrayed him. He was an Iscariot which was a radical political party. He was waiting for Jesus to buy the swords and kick some butt. That order never came. Jesus, didn't come to do that....this time. I'm not sure what you were trying to say in reguard to James. And the discovery channel and history channel go out of their way to twist the Bible. Every time. They find some guy who's supposedly an expert who got his theological degree from Gubertown Hollow. Then they slip him a ten to say that Jesus was a bi***ual with three wives. Everytime I watch any of that stuff it burns me up. Unfortunately most people don't know enough about the Bible and buy into that stuff. It's always easier to watch a TV show than read scripture. Let's put it this way. If I believed any of that stuff on cable, I wouldn't be a Christian.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Which is why your faith is as strong as it is...in spite of, not because of, that which is presented to you. You have gained understanding "according to thy heart and His will", which is the most important thang.

James was Jesus' older brother, raised up by the Pharacees as their ruler (read: king). There are some that would say that Judas, even in his betrayal, was doing what he was preordained to do; that is, a cog in the Divine Machinations of the Grand Architect of The Universe. Yes, the Jews were mad at the betrayal, at the inaction, but it was James' job to put this in motion, and he was superceded by the Man. Not Jesus', but God Himself (For GOD so loved the world, that HE GAVE). It wasn't their season just yet.

I love this!!!!

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UltraSWG
03-20-2006, 04:58 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by xwingband

I wish there was a person that could objectivly say, "Christianity has it's merit but it just doesn't work for me." That person doesn't exist in my experience. Most often they have "hardened their heart" against the message of the church, which is not the evil of others, and is at its core good values.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Xwing, I chose Buddhism over Christianity because I believe that faith without acts is dead. I haven't met very many christians who act christ like, rather, they behave like a christian when it suits them. Alot of them seem to have forgotten the "repentance" part of forgiveness. It's not enough just to ask and be done with it, but somehow that message got lost which is why Christianity runs wild sometimes.

Also, the Bible is not air tight, not in the least. The Bible is a compromise to unite the land under one church, the Catholic church. Many books are left out. The Gospel of the apostle Thomas, for instance, was deemed apocryphal and thus left out of the Bible. Also, the Bible varies in interpretation wildly and it's not surprising seeing as it has been translated many times. Some say that the Bible says that homo***uality is an abomination to God, some say the Bible doesn't say that, who's right? Who knows. Some parts of the Bible say clear as day that a woman should be subserviant to her husband, some say it doesn't. Again, who's right? Some denominations say women can be priests, some say that's an abomination to God. Who is right? Too much inconsistancy in the faith for my tastes since it's all based on human interpretation without revelation from God. Since humans are flawed by nature, what is one to believe?

The lack of goodwill ambassadors from the Christian faith doesn't seem to help the cause, either. Calling all non believers evil just doesn't sit well and only pushes people away. Our friend the scorpion here just called the Dali Lama, a man of peace renouned the world over, an evil man simply because he's a buddhist. Problem is, he's not alone in his opinion, many christians share the same bigotry.

I base my opinion of people on their actions, not their faith, and I would never label someone "evil" simply because they don't believe in the same afterlife as me.

It's just a personal choice on which philosophy of life I choose to follow. I don't need a supreme being to justify my existance, it's not a "hardening of the heart".

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987654321a
03-20-2006, 05:01 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Firebird21

I salute all of you who served in our military.

I just wish I had the balls to do it too!

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i firmly agree man, i too support all people in the armed forces, my uncles in the armies special forces. i wish i was old enough to actually join the army, cause im only 14 lol

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Nightwing
03-20-2006, 05:13 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWGOk, so how could anyone in their right mind say that the Dali Lama is an evil man if evil is based on actions? Last I checked, the Dali Lama isn't Christian, so what else would you have to base your judgments on?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">When I said "actions", I was referring to any sins that any man has ever made. There's no way to atone for sin. Even the most righteous person will slip into sin, most likely every day.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWGXwing, I chose Buddhism over Christianity because I believe that faith without acts is dead. I haven't met very many christians who act christ like, rather, they behave like a christian when it suits them. Alot of them seem to have forgotten the "repentance" part of forgiveness. It's not enough just to ask and be done with it, but somehow that message got lost which is why Christianity runs wild sometimes.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I actually agree with you 100% on this. Partly because of our society, many Christians just put their "church face" on when they go to church, and act totally different elsewhere. It's sad, actually...


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWGAlso, the Bible is not air tight, not in the least. The Bible is a compromise to unite the land under one church, the Catholic church. Many books are left out. The Gospel of the apostle Thomas, for instance, was deemed apocryphal and thus left out of the Bible. Also, the Bible varies in interpretation wildly and it's not surprising seeing as it has been translated many times. Some say that the Bible says that homo***uality is an abomination to God, some say the Bible doesn't say that, who's right? Who knows. Some parts of the Bible say clear as day that a woman should be subserviant to her husband, some say it doesn't. Again, who's right? Some denominations say women can be priests, some say that's an abomination to God. Who is right? Too much inconsistancy in the faith for my tastes since it's all based on human interpretation without revelation from God. Since humans are flawed by nature, what is one to believe?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">One is to believe God. The true basis of Christianity is that man was created to fellowship with God. Christianity is technically an anti-religion because it is based off a relationship rather than rules.
Because of this "relationship", we can learn the true meaning of scripture. It's when people start trying to speak for God that there's a problem.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWGThe lack of goodwill ambassadors from the Christian faith doesn't seem to help the cause, either. Calling all non believers evil just doesn't sit well and only pushes people away. Our friend the scorpion here just called the Dali Lama, a man of peace renouned the world over, an evil man simply because he's a buddhist. Problem is, he's not alone in his opinion, many christians share the same bigotry.

I base my opinion of people on their actions, not their faith, and I would never label someone "evil" simply because they don't believe in the same afterlife as me.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Nor would I. If you listen to those "ambassadors", you'd hear them call themselves sinners as well. I've never heard a single Christian deny that. No Christian deserves to go to Heaven any more than a non-christian. How many times to I have to say that?!?

naashar
03-20-2006, 05:14 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by desertscorpion

Naashar,

I'll take a bite of that sandwich after you GET IN MY BELLY!!! [:p]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Ach..it's squinchy! It's making me all emotional, y'know??
[:D]

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xwingband
03-20-2006, 05:20 PM
Ultra, I agree. There are many that "talk the talk" but lack the other half of that saying. If you haven't met any people like that then I'm truly sorry that you haven't. Is any one person, or a type of one person, a blotch against a whole religion? I don't believe so.

Do I let some extremist Muslims taint my view that Islam has some peaceful people. NO. Like I said there are good people in this world that believe in other religions, like you, but just don't have a relationship with Jesus. It doesn't mean you are evil and that I will treat you as such.

It's just in my experience those that don't view christianity in a favorable view have a very unreasonable approach. You mention inconsistancies that bother you. Fine, but does that mean that you think Christianity is invalidated because of that? Hopefully not but that's often the case.

So often these "inconsitancies" are between the old and the new testament. Orthodox Jews are very strict and follow a lot of those views. You are right that people can pick and choose but those that look at the bible know that Jesus said certain practices were no longer needed. Paul later expounded on this and books like the letters and apostles books tell exactly the "rules" of christians. If you don't believe he was the final say, fine, but that goes back to my last question.

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987654321a
03-20-2006, 05:23 PM
Listen i'm muslim, and your comments were hurtful xwing....lol jk, i dont give a flying f*** what u say about extremist muslims, cause righte now islam doesnt really seem to have peacefull ppl, so in other words i agree
Edit: and lol btw, wtf happened to talking about darth maul and vader?? the talk about maul, and V. shifted to extremist muslims?!?!?!?!??! i dont get it.[xx(]

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naashar
03-20-2006, 05:31 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 987654321a

Listen i'm muslim, and your comments were hurtful xwing....lol jk, i dont give a flying f*** what u say about extremist muslims, cause righte now islam doesnt really seem to have peacefull ppl, so in other words i agree
Edit: and lol btw, wtf happened to talking about darth maul and vader?? the talk about maul, and V. shifted to extremist muslims?!?!?!?!??! i dont get it.[xx(]

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yeah, it blew up into something bigger than what we anticipated it would..but it goes to show that all of us are seething pots of opinion, ready to share the steamy goodness!

And speaking of steamy goodness..I've had my fill for the evening. Scorp: Fair Winds and Following Seas. X, Ultra, Night: It was grand sharing, debating, and understanding. I feel closer to you all. You get to know a man's God, you get to know him.

See ya in the funny papers. Well, 'till tomorrow, anyway! [;)]

**NOOB alert** Hey, I'm a Knight! lol [:D]

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Nightwing
03-20-2006, 05:53 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by naashar

[quote]Originally posted by 987654321a

And speaking of steamy goodness..I've had my fill for the evening. Scorp: Fair Winds and Following Seas. X, Ultra, Night: It was grand sharing, debating, and understanding. I feel closer to you all. You get to know a man's God, you get to know him.

See ya in the funny papers. Well, 'till tomorrow, anyway! [;)]

**NOOB alert** Hey, I'm a Knight! lol [:D]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Yeah, it's been fun. Congrats on your knighthood.
I'm contemplating changing my name to "KnightWing", lol. I already started using that name on Battlefront II.

naashar
03-20-2006, 05:57 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nightwing

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by naashar

[quote]Originally posted by 987654321a

And speaking of steamy goodness..I've had my fill for the evening. Scorp: Fair Winds and Following Seas. X, Ultra, Night: It was grand sharing, debating, and understanding. I feel closer to you all. You get to know a man's God, you get to know him.

See ya in the funny papers. Well, 'till tomorrow, anyway! [;)]

**NOOB alert** Hey, I'm a Knight! lol [:D]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Yeah, it's been fun. Congrats on your knighthood.
I'm contemplating changing my name to "KnightWing", lol. I already started using that name on Battlefront II.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Nice, Mr. Grayson! lol

You don't need to see any identification.

Nightwing
03-20-2006, 06:08 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by naashar
Nice, Mr. Grayson! lol<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Lol. You're the first person to make the connection (on TCSS boards, at least).

UltraSWG
03-20-2006, 09:23 PM
I don't want this to sound like I'm dumping on Christianity, I'm not, but you can't really compare Muslim extremists to half-hearted Christians. Those muslim terrorist type people are the tiny minority of all muslims. But how many people in this country do you think act like true Christians? I want to vomit everytime I see some gangster rapper thank Jesus when he wins a Grammy, or when some actor thanks God after doing a nude scene.

So it's not one person, or any small group. It's a very large group, if not the majority.

And it's not little inconsitancies in the Bible that I find troubling. I don't really care how Judas *really* died. I'm talking about big things that provide guidlines for society. Like is homo***uality really an abomination? I'd say that's a large issue and is currently dividing the church. If Christians can't even decide amongst themselves who is right, then what does that say?

I also dislike the ***ism and slavery in the Bible. I can't ever get behind that. And that's not just Old Testament, the new testament has plenty of it. You said:

"the letters and apostles books tell exactly the "rules" of christians"

So let's look at these rules. These quotes are all from the new testament.

1 Corinthians 11:7
"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man"

1 Corinthians 14
"34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

1 Timothy 2:11-12
"11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

Ephesians 5:22-23
"22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and He is the saviour of the body."

Ephesians 5:24
"24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

1 Corinthians 11:3
"3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

1 Timothy 6:1
"1 Let as many servents as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed."

1 Peter 2:18
"18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh"

I could go on all night, but I think that proves the point. To accept Christianity means to accept the Bible, which is called the Word of God for a reason. While some reject the old testament, there's plenty that rubs me the wrong way in the new.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable in rejecting your faith as the path for me. My wife is Christian and that's fine, we get along grand. But don't think for a second that she submits herself unto me as unto the Lord. And she teaches Sunday school, speaks in Church, and prays with her head uncovered. I guess she picks and chooses what to follow like most do.

http://www.ultrasabers.com
Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity

xwingband
03-20-2006, 09:49 PM
Honestly I can't rebuke all those. I'm not a theologian, and neither are you. We build sabers.[:p] I bet we can poke holes in ever religion all day and it'd get us no where.

I look at it as long as you have faith and don't outright do stuff you know is wrong then it's all good. We are not perfect. If it were possible we wouldn't need a savior.[:)] If you can say you follow every rule of Buhddism, all the power to you, but I sincerely wouldn't believe you.

My Grandmother rejected the church years ago but is still has faith, and I personally don't attend church regularly. If you believe the majority of the church is half-hearted you'd probably be right. It's in our nature to doubt and be immoral. Everyday it's a struggle for any religious person, and if it's not I wish I had your resolve and hope you're not blind to your own shortcomings.

I've pretty much said all I want to... I've got no more on my end.[xx(]

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UltraSWG
03-20-2006, 10:08 PM
Hey, X, you're my brother in the Force, I'd like you no matter what religion you were. And I'm not saying I follow the path of Buddha as devoutly as a monk, but I do believe in all it's teachings, not just the ones that fit my lifestyle or are the most politically correct for the times.

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Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity

Nightwing
03-20-2006, 10:09 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWG

I could go on all night, but I think that proves the point. To accept Christianity means to accept the Bible, which is called the Word of God for a reason. While some reject the old testament, there's plenty that rubs me the wrong way in the new.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable in rejecting your faith as the path for me. My wife is Christian and that's fine, we get along grand. But don't think for a second that she submits herself unto me as unto the Lord. And she teaches Sunday school, speaks in Church, and prays with her head uncovered. I guess she picks and chooses what to follow like most do.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">You cleverly left out all the scriptures which would make any of that seem nicer. You're quotings thing out of context.

First of all, the mentions of slavery are not meant to be in support of the kind of slavery we had in the U.S. way-back-when. The essential message is to be servient of others, and serve God completely in all things.


Second of all, you bring up this crap about women's rights. Notice it never actually says "women are less than man". It says men are to be the head of the family, yes, but in a family structure, is that so bad? Also notice it says "as is fitting unto the Lord." If a husband is beating his wife, then he's not acting as is fitting unto the Lord, because it says RIGHT IN THE VERY NEXT VERSE, "Husbands, love your wives". There are also a ton of other scriptures which detail how a husband should treat his wife, and they ALL say to have the utmost love. Meaning, essentially, a husband should be willing to give his life for his wife, a thousand times over.

Now, I've talked to many christian wives and a few female pastors about this. Their interpretation of it is that the husband and wife work together on everything, but when it comes to an ultimate decision, the husband makes it for the family. The Bible also says that if the husband makes a mistake, God will help to correct it. All these Christian wives say that they actually like having the weight lifted off their shoulders. After all, if you can't serve one person in such a small way, how are you supposed to serve God in everything?
I would also like to point out that both husband and wife serve God; they have the same relationship.

Now, as for the women-in-church thing...
There has been some discussion as to exactly what all of that means. Yes, it explicitly says not to talk in church, but you have to look at what was going on there. That was a letter written to a church, if I'm not mistaken. A lot of the New Testament books were written as letters of advice to churches.
The "silence" thing is talking about gossip, not first-amendment-violation.
The head-uncovered thing is, at the moment, shrouded in mystery. I'll need to do some research on that first. One thing I can tell you is that alot of the stuff in the NT is cultural. That doesn't mean it's not true, it just means that some of it isn't the same. I don't even think our churches are the same as the ones being written to in the NT.


Regardless of what you were "trying to say", you did bash Christianity with that post. You didn't ask about our interpretations of it, or even suppose you might be wrong. You just jumped to the conclusion that Christianity is racist and ***ist.
What Naashar said is true; to know a man's God is to know a man. To slap a man's religion is to slap a man. Honestly, what does your wife think of all this? Have you ever brought it all up with her?

Do-Clo
03-20-2006, 10:11 PM
I have watched the ongoing debate and this is the bottom line, each person makes their own choice as to what they believe, and if a person truly believes they are right then no matter what you say you will not change their mind. Each religion believes they are right and everyone else is wrong. Then it comes to the point where the believer decides since they are right then their way should be imposed upon everyone else. I make no apologies for my faith you must decide for yourself what you choose to believe, and if that choice is not Christianity then I will not force my faith upon you, but in turn I expect the same from those who adopt other beliefs. Christ came not to judge the world but to bring salvation; Christ loved the sinner but rejected the sin, as we must do. Remember your actions speak much louder than your words. If you want people to listen to what you have to say then you had better treat them with love and respect so that they may see the love of Christ in you without speaking a word.

Enough said


Do-Clo
Don't make me destroy you...

Nightwing
03-20-2006, 10:14 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Do-Clo

I make no apologies for my faith you must decide for yourself what you choose to believe, and if that choice is not Christianity then I will not force my faith upon you, but in turn I expect the same from those who adopt other beliefs. Christ came not to judge the world but to bring salvation; Christ loved the sinner but rejected the sin, as we must do. Remember your actions speak much louder than your words. If you want people to listen to what you have to say then you had better treat them with love and respect so that they may see the love of Christ in you without speaking a word.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Rock on, man. That's exactly how it should be. No one should be forced.

UltraSWG
03-20-2006, 10:50 PM
First of all, take a deep breath and cool it. I was the one being accosted here with all this "absence of God = evil" stuff, not you. I was the one being called "unreasonable" or having a "heardened heart" because I didn't choose Christianity. And now when I quote your own book as reasons for not following your faith, you get all ticked off? Who's being unreasonable?

No, I do not believe that men get the final say in the family just because they are men. I believe that is a very ***ist attitude and you will find very few women who just roll over and take that. This is 2006, not 1906. Matriarchal family structures have been proven to work just fine even though the Bible preaches against it.

Just listen to yourself, even in your defense you are being ***ist. A man should have the final say because why? Just because he was born with a penis? How is that not ***ist? Women feel better because they don't have to make the decisions? Horse pucky, that's what they said in the 50's, too. Have we regressed this much to not be able to recognize ***ist stereotypes when we see it?

As for your Pastor and his interpretation, man, how many interpretations do we need? Did you not hear about the Southern Babtist Conferance spliting up over this very issue? There's division in your very Church over what I just quoted really means. Your own Churches can't agree on what it means, so how can you expect to tell me?

You have a female Pastor, that's good, alot of Christian denominations don't allow females to fill that role. They adhere to the teachings that women should not teach in the Church. Catholics, for instance, only allow male priests. Women can be nuns and can teach in the monestary, but not in the actual Church and no nun is higher in authority than a priest. I guess they are wrong according to you, but that's the point, you all believe different things and think the Bible says different things even within your own religion.

"The "silence" thing is talking about gossip, not first-amendment-violation."

How do you know? It says don't speak, if you have a question, ask your husband at home because for a woman to speak in church is shameful. How does that have anything to do with gossip? Where do you get gossip out of that? Sounds like some PR spin to me.

Look, don't get mad at me, this was a discussion about Darth Maul until a Christian came in here and stated that "absense of God = Evil" and then proceeded to call everyone in my faith, including the Dali Lama, evil. My religion was slapped, not yours.

You can't really expect to just call 4 billion people "evil" and it not stimulate debate, can you?

http://www.ultrasabers.com
Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity

xwingband
03-20-2006, 10:59 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by xwingband
I bet we can poke holes in every religion all day and it'd get us no where.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

So darth maul... he's pretty cool.[:D]

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suit_man
03-20-2006, 11:06 PM
for once, i agree with you, ultra. there is no need to degrade one's religion. i am a Christian, but i would never come here and call someone evil for their religion. it is your own choice, i choose to be a Christian, ultra chooses to be Buddhist, but we are all brothers in building sabers. i say we stick to saber building and not have a split in this forum because of religious differences.


i am a nerd, if you don't like it, i will cut you with my lightsaber

UltraSWG
03-20-2006, 11:08 PM
You're right, of course. Let's just agree to respect each other and get back to the topic at hand.

Darth Maul rules because he was Korean just like me.

http://www.ultrasabers.com
Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity

Nightwing
03-20-2006, 11:14 PM
I'm not gonna go post-hunting here. It's too late at night.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWG

Just listen to yourself, even in your defense you are being ***ist. A man should have the final say because why?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Because man was designed that way. Gosh, man. It's not like there aren't obvious psychological differences between men and women.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWG

You can't really expect to just call 4 billion people "evil" and it not stimulate debate, can you?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Actually, I called <u>all six billion</u> evil, not just four. How many times do I have to say that? alright, let me give it to you one more time...



<u>I DON'T THINK I'M ANY BETTER THAN YOU ARE. I DESERVE TO GO TO HELL JUST AS MUCH AS ANYONE ELSE.</u>

I never attacked any religion, nor any people. If I said someone was evil, then I also said that I was just as bad.

Can we just leave this alone now? It's getting ridiculous...





Well, let's see... I like Darth Maul more. Vader was only prone to beat up unarmed officers, children, and pregnant women.

Daj Nallig
03-20-2006, 11:29 PM
I dunno.. Maul has the look & the saber- Vader has the lines and the personality.. I prefer Dooku.

UltraSWG
03-21-2006, 01:24 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Daj Nallig

I dunno.. Maul has the look & the saber- Vader has the lines and the personality.. I prefer Dooku.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Dooku was great saber vs saber, but you never see him in any other combat and I never saw him deflect a blaster bolt. For all I know, he coulda been ganked by an Arc Trooper.

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The Holy Luxeon Trinity

desertscorpion
03-21-2006, 08:40 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nightwing

I'm not gonna go post-hunting here. It's too late at night.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWG

Just listen to yourself, even in your defense you are being ***ist. A man should have the final say because why?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Because man was designed that way. Gosh, man. It's not like there aren't obvious psychological differences between men and women.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWG

You can't really expect to just call 4 billion people "evil" and it not stimulate debate, can you?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Actually, I called <u>all six billion</u> evil, not just four. How many times do I have to say that? alright, let me give it to you one more time...



<u>I DON'T THINK I'M ANY BETTER THAN YOU ARE. I DESERVE TO GO TO HELL JUST AS MUCH AS ANYONE ELSE.</u>

I never attacked any religion, nor any people. If I said someone was evil, then I also said that I was just as bad.

Can we just leave this alone now? It's getting ridiculous...





Well, let's see... I like Darth Maul more. Vader was only prone to beat up unarmed officers, children, and pregnant women.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I never called him evil for being buddhist, either. I, also, made it clear that the Bible teaches that all men are evil. I don't know why you keep trying to make yourself the "victim," Ultra. Nightwing and I just admitted that we are evil too, according to our beliefs. If I misspoke, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to push anyone away. I would rather dispell all those true observations you've had about half-hearted Christians. It's sad. You have to understand a Christians point of view (or what it should be). To a Christian, this world is like the Titanic and it's going down. And we're supposed to throw a lifevest to everyone we can. If they reject the vest that's up to them. But if Christians don't care about spreading the message, even to "unsavory" people, then they don't care about what God cares about, and that is those who are lost from Him. That's what God cares about.
It's kind of obvious that humanity as a whole doesn't feel too good about themselves or their ultimate end, otherwise all of these religions wouldn't exist. Everyone must feel guilty and sad about something. Something's got to be wrong.

Do you know what one of the greatest messages in the Bible is?

It's that if there was only one person on earth, not a billion, not a million, not a thousand, not ten, just one. And if that one was you. Even if you were cussing God to his face and raising your fist at him. He still would have done it all for you. Jesus still would have given himself up to be crucified just for you Ultra. If you were the only one. Just to give you the opportunity to accept Him...or reject Him. I'm sorry that you've experienced so many Christians who weren't living it. I've met those people, and I've been that person. And I'm not proud of that. But don't let it make a difference on your one on one relationship to God. Don't let someone else ruin it for you.

Contact me directly, Ultra.

Do-Clo
03-21-2006, 09:07 AM
[quote]Originally posted by UltraSWG

You're right, of course. Let's just agree to respect each other and get back to the topic at hand.

Let it go guys and learn to respect one another, I may not agree with Ultra and his choosen path but it is his choice, and I respect him.

The old saying that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink is true, the only thing that you can do is to try and drown him and yourself in the process, but what is gained in this activity?????

Now back to the topic at hand: The sith lords all had their weaknesses and their strengths, I like Darth Maul for his style but for sheer impact I prefer Darth Vader

Do-Clo
Don't make me destroy you...

naashar
03-21-2006, 11:53 AM
SSSoooooo...what'd I miss? [:D]

I kid, I kid. Hope all is well. I actually woke up this am sorta spiritually refreshed. Thanks to all.



You don't need to see any identification.

UltraSWG
03-21-2006, 01:03 PM
Enough with the sermons, this isn't church. This is why you can't ever have an intelligent debate with some people, they begin to state their "beliefs" as fact and then justify it by saying "well to me, it's fact". Sorry, but that's not how a debate works. When one side relies on nothing but belief, the debate just breaks down into sermons and emotional rants like you see here.

You know, Scorp, this whole thing could have been ended long ago if you just had the testicular fortitude to simply state that you were not implying that Christians were good and all others were evil. Stating that the absence of god is evil is a very arrogant and bigoted statement, had you simply restated it instead of dancing all around it, you could have saved us alot ot typing. Better yet, had you not posted your religious urban legend in the first place this wouldn't have happened. Why you waited until just now to clarify what you meant is rather dubious.

http://www.ultrasabers.com
Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity

desertscorpion
03-21-2006, 01:11 PM
Ummm.....sorry. [:(] [B)] Yes, I'd say it's very dubious. [?] Since I'm undone, I guess I'll go ahead and confess... I was the second gunman on the grassy knoll.

Do-Clo
03-21-2006, 01:51 PM
May this thread rest in peace [xx(]

Do-Clo
Don't make me destroy you...

987654321a
03-21-2006, 04:52 PM
see how religion and politics can start arguements??? lol[:)]

The Dark Side will kill you
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Nightwing
03-21-2006, 07:10 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by UltraSWG

You know, Scorp, this whole thing could have been ended long ago if you just had the testicular fortitude to simply state that you were not implying that Christians were good and all others were evil. Stating that the absence of god is evil is a very arrogant and bigoted statement, had you simply restated it instead of dancing all around it, you could have saved us alot ot typing. Better yet, had you not posted your religious urban legend in the first place this wouldn't have happened. Why you waited until just now to clarify what you meant is rather dubious.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Could it be that you simply misunderstood the information?
I clarified it for him over and over again.

And why the heck are you insulting him? Why?!? It makes no sense.
We weren't even in a "debate", we were just explaining our beliefs. Then you start twisting the information whichever way you want, and throwing around insults.

I mean, I was gonna perhaps buy a saber from you sometime. But your random rudeness is just staggering.

xwingband
03-21-2006, 07:22 PM
NO, NO! Ultra is pretty cool. Hyperdyne grates the hell out of me... he won't touch this forum so I can say all I want about him.[:p]

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GeluKhanGharr
03-21-2006, 07:44 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nightwing
I never attacked any religion, nor any people. If I said someone was evil, then I also said that I was just as bad.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Forgive me for jumping in like this, but I believe that living in Colorado Springs - home of the (in)famous Focus on the Familly - gives me the right to bud in.
There is something wrong with your statement, Nightwing. Making a negative statement about yourself does not excuse including others. You call yourself whatever you want, but when you call me that too, I get insulted.

Too many a Saturday morning I get the "saviors" at my door to offer me that "life jacket" When I refuse it they look at me with pity and sadness. THAT is insulting. They're basically saying that their belief system is better than mine, showing me contempt and disprooval, but not open to discussion or argument.

Can any of these super-moralists stand in an ethics discussion if you take their bible away? Everything must start with "Jesus said" or "God said". How about proving points the Socratic way?

I will not go to hell for a simple reason - I don't believe in it.
Did I step on some toes? Good!

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UltraSWG
03-21-2006, 08:08 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nightwing
I mean, I was gonna perhaps buy a saber from you sometime. But your random rudeness is just staggering.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hello Mr. Kettle, have you met my friend Mr. Pot? If you really think any of my supposed rudeness was random, then you really can't see through those rose colored glasses. Christians are often times very rude and insulting and don't even know it.

Also, let me say how deeply hurt I am that you won't be buying a saber from me. But perhaps you really shouldn't even be talking about buying anything from me seeing as how this is Strydur's forum, hmm? That's just rude. (Is it random?) Better yet, how about you avoid mixing business into this altogether, ok?

I think Gelu really sums it all up, so I don't have that much else to say except that Darth Maul could beat up Chuck Norris.

http://www.ultrasabers.com
Corbin|Strydur|Ultra
The Holy Luxeon Trinity

Strydur
03-21-2006, 08:41 PM
Ok..lets all just agree to disagree and consider this discussion over.

Tim
The Custom Saber Shop