Luxeon String Saber

[Blazemann]

As some know, I have been planning to build a lightsaber with ten Luxeon III's inside the blade. Here I will show all my plans, and update you with my progress!

First problem I faced, was power. Ten Lux. III's aren't going to power easily... Also, I only wanted a EIGHT INCH HILT! So... The power supply itself would be impossible to fit inside the 8" hilt. When I figured this, I decided I would do it the only way possible... Nuclear Power! OK, not really... I would use ten 9V Batteries to power it, but even then, the size is a problem. So then it hit me, I could use an external power supply! Soon, though, I realized yet another problem, I would need elastic wires to allow for freedom to move! And to my knowledge, they don't exist! Then it hit me, yet again, I could us a series of reels to allow for more mobility! Soon after, I decided that the battery pack, would be made out of just and ordinary box, and then out of the box, the wires would run through a homemade belt to a reel. Then from there, it would go up my side, and to another reel attached to my shoulder. That reel would then run down my sleeve, and attach to the saber. But after I had drawn the plans, I had realized a fatal flaw. The belt buckle would make it to where the wires had to go up my back. But then another idea popped into my head! Make the buckle have quick connect plugs! Now the system was fully designed. Now I went to the blade. The blade would have nine of the ten LED's in it, and the hilt would hold the tenth one. There would be nine double-sided plastic silver mirrors, one before each LED, except the one in the hilt. And one one-way plastic silver mirror, to go on the tip. The Blade would have to be a 1" thin-walled, and there would not be a diffuser. To replace the diffuser, a thin Styrofoam insert would be used. This will not be a combat saber, but it will look really cool!

PROJECT PLANS
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/451/luxeonstringdiagramsc3.png

[Obi-Dar Ke-Gnomie]

Dude, I don't want to be the proverbial turd in your pool, but I'm wondering if all this work is going to give you the results you want.

I think it's going to be impossible to make the blade look even. The 10 LEDs are going to make 10 bright spots. I didn't see optics in there, so you'll just get a bright ball of light.

It'll be a nightmare to wire, and I don't know how you would mount the LEDs in the blade and keep them where they're put. I'm also worried that you aren't using heat sinks on them. They'll melt your styrofoam insert.

I hate to knock your idea down, but I wouldn't want to see you spend all that time, effort and money on something that may not give you the results you imagine.

I don't know. I'm not an expert. Prove me wrong. Make it work, and I'll be your biggest fan.

[Jonny1983]

I think the Luxeons would burn out if they're not heatsinked, won't they?

[xl97]

I have to echo the same comments.. having an LED shing on the bottom of another.. well not going to make a evenly lit blade..IMHO..

[xwingband]

I'ts going to break... no heatsinks on the mid ones. Then the electronics aren't right. YOu don't need 10 resistors if you're going to just combine all the wires.

Other bad ideas here:
-10 9V's is like the equivalent of a AA pack of the same voltage. Even paralleled to make a parallel string like you want your batteries wouldn't handle it. 10 paralleled Luxeons would need 10 amps.
-deshouldered? Granted you wouldn't be dueling, but I don't see the point.

[Darth Lars]

Make sure the reel and wires are properly insulated. If you get a shock of 10A in your armpit, it will kill you.

[Sohryu76]

I'ts going to break... no heatsinks on the mid ones. Then the electronics aren't right. YOu don't need 10 resistors if you're going to just combine all the wires.

Other bad ideas here:
-10 9V's is like the equivalent of a AA pack of the same voltage. Even paralleled to make a parallel string like you want your batteries wouldn't handle it. 10 paralleled Luxeons would need 10 amps.
-deshouldered? Granted you wouldn't be dueling, but I don't see the point.

it will break... it will burn out and possibly burn up when those LEDs heat up your core... and shadows will afflict your entire blade... not to mention it will be a real pain to find 10 LEDs of all the same Bin... stay away from Cyans... lol

[Darth_DevilGuy]

I'd be concerned with the voltage/amperage in that thing, you could seriously hurt yourself.

[Blazemann]

Thanks for all your comments! I will now answer most of the questions, and explain the ones helping me. Please read this before asking any other questions, as they will not be re-answered.




1) You don't need 10 resistors if you're going to just combine all the wires.

2) deshouldered? Granted you wouldn't be dueling, but I don't see the point.
1) The wires never combine, they are just bundled to make less mess.

2) I have already said it will just be for show.



1) The 10 LEDs are going to make 10 bright spots. I didn't see optics in there, so you'll just get a bright ball of light.

2) It'll be a nightmare to wire, and I don't know how you would mount the LEDs in the blade and keep them where they're put.

3) I'm also worried that you aren't using heat sinks on them. They'll melt your Styrofoam insert.

4) I don't know. I'm not an expert. Prove me wrong. Make it work, and I'll be your biggest fan.
1) Remember, they only need to light 3.6" of space, in a foam diffused spot. I may use some 120 degree' lenses, but I will need to find them.

2) It will be a big task to wire for sure. Especially the reels. I will need to gut them, then fit in a twenty wire bundle! As for the mounting inside the blade, it will just be glued to the insert.

3) Heat sinks won't be needed. What I am using isn't really Styrofoam... I just call it that because it is what it looks like. It is a thermal foam pipe insert. Believe me, I had thought of that! But good job catching my stupidity on calling it the wrong thing!

4) Great! Thanks for your support!


1)Make sure the reel and wires are properly insulated. If you get a shock of 10A in your armpit, it will kill you.
1) Very good point! Thanks for this warning, I hadn't thought of possible human error... I will now need to insulate all of the metal reel in rubber, and the inside of the reel opening with foam, to prevent the accidental wire scratching.



1) it will break...

2) it will burn out and possibly burn up when those LEDs heat up your core...

3) and shadows will afflict your entire blade...

4) not to mention it will be a real pain to find 10 LEDs of all the same Bin... stay away from Cyans... lol
1) Thank you for your uncanning support!

2) It will burn out? I don't quite understand but I think you speak of the actual LED's... They are all powered individually, so their chances of burning out are the same as a normal Luxeon Saber. And as in 'burning out' I think you speak of the foam. The foam is a thermal pipe insert that will not burn nor melt.

3) Wrong. All light shot out of a luxeon is reflected back to that same luxeon. And due to the star design of a luxeon unit, it hits the previous luxeons mirror, which bounces it right back. Due to it going in between the stars' gap's, is will light all the foam around it. thus making the couple of millimeters where the luxeon is, still glow!

4) As stated in the first post they are white, so the bin only affects the brightness, which isn't a worry, since this blade will be brighter than a mofo due to its multi-luxeon system.

[Jonny1983]

The LEDs would burn out because the heat won't dissipate. I think your talking about fire retardent foam which I doubt would cut it.

[Darth_DevilGuy]

also the star hex bases will still cast shadows so no matter how bright you'll still be able to see very clearly where they are, if you want to do a component blade take apart an MR and see how they did it.

[Sohryu76]

the reason you need heatsinks is because the STARS will overheat and the LED will burn out...
you stand an even GREATER change of that with "foam" that will insulate against heat... it will keep the heat tight against the stars. Normal or single Luxeon LEDs are heatsinked to preserve their life, not prevent the hilt or blade from melting.

I'm not sure if you are just pulling everyone's leg here, or if you really are planning on doing this... but you are going to end up spending alot of money, and probably end up hurting yourself.

[Eandori]

Probably the best thing you can do at this point, is buy a few luxeon stars and experiement with them. I'm sure you'll quickly see the benefits and challenges everybody is discussing here.

[Sethski]

If you are serious about this, please, do be careful and apply a big dollop of common sense as well - like, maybe testing 2 or 3 LEDs in the setup you propose to see if it does light evenly as hoped, not catch fire, etc.

I am totally sceptical, just being honest, but also concerned for your safety first of all, and also just for your expense if it didn't work out as hoped.

If you test it a step at a time, you'll be avoiding risks and give yourself a better chance of succeeding. I think the concerns that people are expressing are valid, so it's at least worth testing what you propose will work i.e. one led running on a star but with no heatsink, then see if it's ok in a section of tube, then see if it's ok with the foam stuff you plan to use, then try 2 or 3 LEDs in this setup to check your plan for the diffusion works, etc...

Good luck, anyway, and please be careful :roll:

[SWAT Strachan]

Have you considered maybe just using two Luxeons? If the blade's going to be short, one LED at each end of it would provide more than enough brightness, especially with one of XWing's nylon blades. 10° optics would be ideal for such a short saber, but you're still going to hit problems with the heat generated. With a heatsink and a vented blade tip, I guess it could be done, and the two wires to the Luxeon at the tip would be pretty well hidden by the slight opaqueness of the blade.

I'll echo what others have said though, experimentation is needed before you leap in head first and end up with a flaming belt-powered pacemaker :D.

[Blazemann]

1) How would a heat sink make it any cool? And also, a heat sink WOULD cause black spots

2) No, it is THERMAL PIPE FOAM, box says: do not put under excess of 250(degrees) Fahrenheit. It says nothing of fire, and niether did I. I said it wouldn't melt. And it won't.

3) 36" is not a short blade, and that is only the exposed part, look at the whole picture before giving ideas.

4) No, there will not be dark spots! This is a tried and true method. The only untried part of this, is the one-way plactic-silver mirror under the tip.

5) I have alreay got ten LED's, why would I need to buy four more to try it? Again, read the post before trying to give advise.

!!!) I may be acting mean, but READ THE PREVIOUS POSTS BEFORE ADVISING!!!

[xl97]

1) How would a heat sink make it any cool? And also, a heat sink WOULD cause black spots

are you joking? or serious? the same way a CPU ina computer needs a heatsink..

and yes it would cause black spots..which is what everyone is trying to explain.

a heatsink, by design is there to 'wick' away heat from other parts. when parts overheat you can get strange results, and even burn your chip/LED...(whatever)

[Stinky Bantha]

In my experience, foam is used as an insulator, and like people have been saying, it's not insulation you want, but heat dissipation. In other words, you want the heat generated by the LED itself to travel through the star and as far away from the actual LED itself as possible. Foam will only resist the transfer of heat and trap it close to the LED and likely cause it to burn out. You asked for comments, and you've been getting quite a few good ones, so it would probably be a good idea to take them into account rather than just posting your idea for the purpose of refuting any advice given to you.

[Blazemann]

In my experience, foam is used as an insulator, and like people have been saying, it's not insulation you want, but heat dissipation. In other words, you want the heat generated by the LED itself to travel through the star and as far away from the actual LED itself as possible. Foam will only resist the transfer of heat and trap it close to the LED and likely cause it to burn out. You asked for comments, and you've been getting quite a few good ones, so it would probably be a good idea to take them into account rather than just posting your idea for the purpose of refuting any advice given to you.

Thank you Stinky Bantha, but you ARE the first to actually answer the question at hand. Like the post before yours, it said "for the same reason cpu's..." which didn't at all tell me why. I now Know why the heat sink would be needed, but is there and way to direct away the heat without a large, opaque object?

[xwingband]

No, there will not be dark spots! This is a tried and true method. The only untried part of this, is the one-way plactic-silver mirror under the tip.

Where is this tried and true?

You underestimate the heat and power requirements. A 9V on a resistor is going to be awful.

I understand the bundling now, I thought you were going to solder them all. That leads me to the next question? Am I to believe that each LED will have a set running to it? So the bottom one will have 18 wires in front of it?:confused:

[eastern57]

This is turning out to be quite the venture. I admit, it's a very bold idea. I'm more curious than anyhting else.

As for heat dissipation, if you can find a way to cool it without a heat sink (air cooled, moving air, fan, liquid, paste, whatever) you might be able to sidestep some "heated" question/comments...

[Klaatu]

This is turning out to be quite the venture. I admit, it's a very bold idea. I'm more curious than anyhting else.

As for heat dissipation, if you can find a way to cool it without a heat sink (air cooled, moving air, fan, liquid, paste, whatever) you might be able to sidestep some "heated" question/comments...


Yes perhaps some kind of muffin fan in the hilt and ports on the tip of the saber for the air to vent.

[Ghostbat]

Maybe back to my old terrible idea of a liquid nitrogen spray :)

Driven at a low wattage I think heat won't be too crippling. The Joe Jedi prolights have no heat sinking at all other than their star and a bit of an air pocket. I think at that level you wouldn't be melting polycarbonate or anything. In fact I suspect that even with much hotter LEDs the danger there would more be of cooking the LEDs themselves. The only place I would be nervous is making sure the battery pack and wiring was well insulated and protected. A short on your belt or up your sleeve (!) would be terribly unfun.

My prediction is that the blade would have a very segmented look, alternating brighter and darker spots. I don't think it would have downright dark spots (like a MR blade with burnt out/damaged LEDs would) but I don't think it would be even.

On the other hand it might be so spectacularly bright that nobody can look closely enough to tell :)

I would proceed with caution, underdriving the LEDs severely and ramping up a little at a time. It's possible you might get the brightness where you want without having the LEDs cook themselves/each other.

Heck, you have the LEDs, I say go for it and see what happens. Just be prepared for the very real possibility that the parts may not survive the experiment (but then isn't that always a factor?)

[Klaatu]

I just stumbled across this it may be helpful or not.
http://www.mouser.com/search/Refine.aspx?Ne=254016+1447464&N=1323038%20254584&Ns=P_SField (http://www.mouser.com/search/Refine.aspx?Ne=254016+1447464&N=1323038%20254584&Ns=P_SField.)

[Dark Helmet]

I would guess that using a paste to heat sink them would likely warp the blade, since the paste will pass the heat along... the idea of heat sinking works by means of sending the heat to a broader surface where air flow can wick it away. the tubes are cheap enough to be worth giving it a try, so maybe it could work. you may even try a MR acrylic blade to see how it handles heat, no matter what, you can never use the blade for combat so you may as well look for a blade that can do this without warping.

[Eandori]

5) I have alreay got ten LED's, why would I need to buy four more to try it? Again, read the post before trying to give advise.

!!!) I may be acting mean, but READ THE PREVIOUS POSTS BEFORE ADVISING!!!
Sorry, I didn't see that you already have them. Well it appears you have not used them before posting this.

You said 10x 9v batteries, and a 5.6 Ohm resistor on each of them... with each of them in series with a luxeon III white?

Each luxeon III white has around 4v forward. You will have a 9v battery on each so that's around 5v dropped across your resistor. 5v/5.6 = 893mA. So it looks to me like you are planning on running close to 1 amp through each of the luxeons. 1 amp at 4v is about 4 watts dissipated in each luxeon. That WILL get hot and it WILL need heat sinking. Also, to your resistor. It will have around 5 watts disspated in it. I realized that you said 10 watt resistors, but that does not mean they won't get hot. It just means they can handle the wattage. If I understood your setup correctly, that basically means your entire circuit will be dumping out around 90 watts of power. That's... a LOT more then typical. The typical HEATSINKED lightsaber right now is consuming around 7 to 12 watts of power.

So based on the heat you seem to be planning on generating, I assumed you had not actually tested that setup in person. I would reccomend connecting the batteries in series, connect the luxeons in series, bias JUST ONE resistor so you had around 60mA flowing through the whole chain and see if you can survive that much heat generation and if it's enough light to make the whole thing worth it.

With 10x luxeon III's at 60mA you will have a required voltage somewhere around 3x10 = 30v (guessing, test to be sure). So in that case, 4x 9volt batteries will suit your needs. Just try that first and see what you think.

[Sohryu76]

Holy Cow E...

that is a very well thought out explanation... you never cease to amaze me with your knowledge...

[Blazemann]

Sorry, to lazy to number and multi quote, so I will just starty rambling.

1) This has been tested. It was only with four Luxeons, but it was tested. Allbeit not with polyC around it, but the idea has been tested. The test used a cheap, clear, plastic tube from Lowes, and a lot of that thermal pipe foam. It worked, but there was the sgmented look that you are all worried of. I then decided to ask if anyong else had done it before, generaly I gathered, "no." Then I had the idea for the mirrors, and that is what setup this design. I took my other six Luxeons from thier projects and enlisted them into this. The Luxeons shorting was never thought of because the test pipe only stayed together for about twenty minutes, when I got sick of the segments.

2) Yes, I know how much amps, volts, and watts I will be generating. The power box is going to have a few of the quietist, but good, fans I can get. These fans are going to be covered up(Noise) by a MR Soundboard. I am going to buy a red Luxeon III for it, and run it through yet another power source, which will also be a threat to me, because the clash sensor will be going up through my belt, and the reels, in to my saber... Now, I must muster up the courage to dismantle my Yoda EIII! I have not quite decides what to do with the red Luxeon. Maybe a power light, but the saber and blade would be plenty for that!

3) Yes, these reels have been tested. I am now trying too find a bunch of "Micro" wires... GOOGLE!!!

[Sohryu76]

out of sheer curiosity... how old are you my friend?


Sorry, to lazy to number and multi quote, so I will just starty rambling.

1) This has been tested. It was only with four Luxeons, but it was tested. Allbeit not with polyC around it, but the idea has been tested. The test used a cheap, clear, plastic tube from Lowes, and a lot of that thermal pipe foam. It worked, but there was the sgmented look that you are all worried of. I then decided to ask if anyong else had done it before, generaly I gathered, "no." Then I had the idea for the mirrors, and that is what setup this design. I took my other six Luxeons from thier projects and enlisted them into this. The Luxeons shorting was never thought of because the test pipe only stayed together for about twenty minutes, when I got sick of the segments.

2) Yes, I know how much amps, volts, and watts I will be generating. The power box is going to have a few of the quietist, but good, fans I can get. These fans are going to be covered up(Noise) by a MR Soundboard. I am going to buy a red Luxeon III for it, and run it through yet another power source, which will also be a threat to me, because the clash sensor will be going up through my belt, and the reels, in to my saber... Now, I must muster up the courage to dismantle my Yoda EIII! I have not quite decides what to do with the red Luxeon. Maybe a power light, but the saber and blade would be plenty for that!

3) Yes, these reels have been tested. I am now trying too find a bunch of "Micro" wires... GOOGLE!!!

[Klaatu]

out of sheer curiosity... how old are you my friend?



I 2nd that.

[Blazemann]

out of sheer curiosity... how old are you my friend?

19 years...

[Marsupial]

3) Yes, these reels have been tested. I am now trying too find a bunch of "Micro" wires... GOOGLE!!!


of course, you are aware that the smallest the wire is, the less current it can handle?

[Blazemann]

of course, you are aware that the smallest the wire is, the less current it can handle?

Yes. That is why I am searching for them. Believe me, I have plenty of super small wires, but not good enough ones. I know where to get them, but they are out of stock. I am going to get wires with a 5-volt capacity that are only .09 milimeters thick. I am going to get a nylon service, where the 20 wires will be bundled together into a string with nylon as the outer casing, like some of the new nylon computer-mouse cords.(Except the mouse cords are only containing four, usualy)Together the bundle will be half a centimeter thick, and I am ordering twenty feet.(Minimum amount with nylon service) The power box will just be using standard radioshack wiring on it because inside the actual box, size isn't of any worry.

[SWAT Strachan]

Yes. That is why I am searching for them. Believe me, I have plenty of super small wires, but not good enough ones. I know where to get them, but they are out of stock. I am going to get wires with a 5-volt capacity that are only .09 milimeters thick. I am going to get a nylon service, where the 20 wires will be bundled together into a string with nylon as the outer casing, like some of the new nylon computer-mouse cords.(Except the mouse cords are only containing four, usualy)Together the bundle will be half a centimeter thick, and I am ordering twenty feet.(Minimum amount with nylon service) The power box will just be using standard radioshack wiring on it because inside the actual box, size isn't of any worry.It's not the voltage alone that will melt the wires, it's the current. A Luxeon III needs 1000mAh to reach its ideal brightness, are you sure that a .09mm wire can handle that? In theory you could blast 20,000 volts down a wire that thin, but you couldn't have any current behind it otherwise it would fry. It's the amp capacity that you need to check on more than the voltage... I think.

[Blazemann]

It's not the voltage alone that will melt the wires, it's the current. A Luxeon III needs 1000mAh to reach its ideal brightness, are you sure that a .09mm wire can handle that? In theory you could blast 20,000 volts down a wire that thin, but you couldn't have any current behind it otherwise it would fry. It's the amp capacity that you need to check on more than the voltage... I think.

Thanks, I will recheck. I wasn't thinking of amps...

[SWAT Strachan]

Thanks, I will recheck. I wasn't thinking of amps...When you ask whoever it is you're going to ask (your supplier I presume) be sure to mention the voltage and the current requirements, they'll need to know both before they can advise on the capacity of wire you'll need.

Jeez this is taking me back to my technology and design lessons in secondary school, that was 16 years ago :mrgreen:.

[Klaatu]

When you ask whoever it is you're going to ask (your supplier I presume) be sure to mention the voltage and the current requirements, they'll need to know both before they can advise on the capacity of wire you'll need.

Jeez this is taking me back to my technology and design lessons in secondary school, that was 16 years ago :mrgreen:.

This kinda stuff makes me wish i went to college for circuits and stuff instead of Networking.

[Eandori]

You can't have a voltage drop across a wire. If you do... it's effectively a resistor because a wire is supposed to have nearly zero resistance. So the voltage you see on one side "with respect to ground" should be the same voltage on the other side. The only time that changes is at VERY high frequencies. Never for DC applications though.

Yep, it's all about current :)

[SWAT Strachan]

Any updates on this little project...? I haven't seen anything in the papers about anyone being found smouldering from the armpit whilst waving a flaming lightsaber around so I'll assume that it's all going well so far :mrgreen:.