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Eandori
04-09-2008, 11:26 PM
Ok, here's the start of that information I've been promising for awhile. This is not the comparison video YET, just a quick video to set up the groundwork for the comparison. In this video I have shown what I have on hand for Blue Hyperdyne. Some facts about it's operation and some video of the internal hardware.

More videos will be shown later, and when everything is proper for a comparison, then the comparison will finally happen.

JEDIBUM... I need that light meter from you. I also need the values we discussed which are measured light values at 10 cm from the blade in a dark room at 3 locations (near the hilt, middle of blade, and top of blade.) I would also very much like to get some current measurements on a working blue Hyperblade at full power from somebody else, maybe you. I need to verify the hardware I have now is in working order.

Without further ado, here's the first level setting video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypLIM5dG4To

Hasid Lafre
04-10-2008, 03:53 AM
When you talk in the first part of the video you so remind me of that painter guy from the old pbs shows

Eandori
04-10-2008, 04:02 AM
LOL! Definitely not the response I was expecting. Very funny. "and... here's a happy little tree..."

I believe the batteries that came with this saber are 7.2v Lithium Ion at 750mAh of capacity. That means the given battery pack should provide .750 amps for 1 hour before going dead. Since the setup roughly uses twice that current, we would expect the saber to last around 30 min... And in fact... I timed the saber from full charge to self powering off at 34 min 20 seconds.

This means a few things... first of all, Hyperdynes are 3x the duration I typically heard quoted. I heard (10 min run at full power) again and again. Well, at least this one looks more like ~30 min. Not 10.

This also means with a bigger capacity battery a Hyperdyne could get some very decent run time. With some 2400 mAh lithium ion cells (like the panasonic 18650's) a Hyperdyne lightsaber should last about an hour and a half on a full charge. Based on the testing I have done, that would be my educated guess to the run time with a better battery.

I should note though, the Lithium Ion cells were warm after the 34 min run. The blade was warm too. Jim Shiima is definitely driving those in-blade LED's pretty hard. I have to wonder if he intentionally put a smaller battery in the Hyperblade so it would not get too hot? If I had to guess, I would guess that the setup could run for much longer before worrying about heat. It was only warm. Not hot.

Hasid Lafre
04-10-2008, 04:10 AM
Well you pritty much answered my question there. 30 min run time is still rubbish.

Novastar
04-10-2008, 07:00 AM
With a little perspective, 30 minutes is ok for most usages. True, I wouldn't like it (I like 2 hours or more), but 30 minutes would suffice for playing around.

And listen to what Edwin just said... if the H-blades had a pack of 18650s... they'd probably do just fine.

MY guess is that Jim didn't use that pack... because it's pretty expensive all things considered. But it's just a guess. I use the dual 18650 packs (for 7.2 or 7.4v) in the Flange III sabers... and yes, they get like 3 hours of run time. That is with flickering and extra LEDs and all that... on LEDs that are asking "1.5A, please", lol.

So... all things considered... I could have mentioned that higher mah rated cells would last longer. But... um... that's pretty obvious, all things considered. :)

I mean... does ANYONE think that (for example) an Alkaline AA cell will ever last as long as... say... a lead-acid CAR battery? No. Size matters, and energy density as well.

Eandori
04-10-2008, 08:58 AM
Thanks Novastar, you brought up a good point that I wanted to mention but forgot to write so far.

None of my comparisons or tests or data is meant to be negative in any way to Novastar's comparison, Jedibum's comparison, etc. I'm simply making an effort to take qualitive data, show facts about the setup, and answer other questions that fans on both sides have been asking or wondering about.

My videos and posts in this thread are entirely meant to just call it like it is with verified facts. That's all. I'm going to try my best to avoid opinions and just show what the reality of each setup is. Everybody who reads/watches can draw their own conclusions.

I've been learning from Novastar, Erv', and many others on these boards for awhile now about Luxeon setups. Lately I've been in direct contact with Mark Cheng and Jedibum getting information about Hyperblades. I'm making a large effort here to ensure that each system type is working PROPERLY before I do any comparisons.

Having said that, if any of you have questions or information about something I need to check, or change or verify, please feel free to list it here. The actual comparison will happen AFTER I have verified both setups are working properly.

Cheers,

Eandori
04-10-2008, 02:11 PM
I've been informed that to hit full brightness for the blue Hyperblade setup I need an 11v battery. So I'm planning on building a 9x AA cell battery (10.8v rated) and I'll connect that to the blue Hyperblade system for future tests.

I believe that each Lithium Ion cell is actually 3.6v and 750mA that Hyperdyne uses by default in their setups. So their "3 cell" pack is actually the same rated voltage... 10.8v So that should be totally safe. Only difference is I'll probably use 2500mAh NiMH cells so I'll get much more runtime.

If the current draw stays the same (average 1.5A on max setting) then we should expect the blue Hyperblade to last for 100 min on a full charge with the 9x AA battery I'll make.

2500mAh/1500mA = 1.67h or 1 hour and 40 min of expected runtime (if the current stays at 1.5A)

BUT.... they said the blade will be brighter. So that most likely means more current is used which will drop the runtime. So I'll just have to see how much juice that system pulls out of the battery at 11v. Remember, the run time is DIRECTLY TIED to the current taken from the battery.

Edit: one more quick note.... this DOES mean though that if the Hyperblade was built with a 7.2v battery at 2500mAh it should last over an hour and a half before going dead. So right off the bat, we need to throw all that stuff about 10 min run at full charge out the window. It's not true... it depends on your setup.

Novastar
04-10-2008, 04:01 PM
Did "they" tell you what version the H-blade blue one was supposed to be? I asked for clarification on that but no one spoke up. I always thought it was a version 1 since version 1 seemed to be sold with the 7.2v battery, and v2 with the 11.1v. At least on the website.

Maybe it means that a version difference is just more voltage from one version to the next--if you can just put an 11.1v pack in there? I don't know. Whatever the case, I didn't (VISUALLY) find the green at 11.1v to be all that much brighter than the blue at 7.2v, so I'm not sure what that is all about. Maybe it was due to the damage you said you found on the sabers? Although the green seemed ok.

And again, as to the runtimes--well, obviously the larger cells + larger mah ratings will yield longer run times. And naturally it should be comparable if a Luxeon style saber is doing 1500ma and then we have an H-blade doing 1500ma... the battery run time should be the same... energy is energy, power draw is power draw.

I think the issue was simply what was the truth--low mah rating batteries in the sabers? I mean neither of those packs were higher than 750mah, right? I've never tried packs with such low energy density, I only use the 18650s, so... there you have it. It's like hey if a lux owner used a 750mah pack... he/she would get about 3/4 of an hour runtime (@ 1A draw). Duh. At 1.5A draw... just like you said, around 30 minutes.

Blazemann
04-10-2008, 04:40 PM
Where at Hyperdyne can I buy a blade like this? I can't find them... Did they stop making them?

Eandori
04-10-2008, 08:06 PM
I believe they said these boards are version 2, and the blades might be too. They said to just switch out the 7.2v battery for an 11v battery. Maybe I should double check first... Don't want to fry anything.

Jedibum
04-11-2008, 12:33 AM
In case there is some confusion about V1 and V2 Hyperblade stuff ... I'll try and clarify. There is a major difference between V1 Driver Board and V2 Driver Board ... so you definately want to make sure you are using the V2 Driver Board. In case you aren't sure what version you are using ... here's something simple ... if you have the ability to tell the board if you are using a 7.2 Volt set-up ... or an 11.1 Volt set-up ... then you have a V2 Driver Board.

For the blades ... there is a physical difference between V1 Blade Boards and V2 Blade Boards. It's pretty simple ... The V2 Blade Boards have more LED's ... and a much better improvement with dark spots. You don't have to have a V2 Blade Board with a V2 Driver Board. You can use the V1 Blade Boards, they are capable of reaching the same brightness protential ... they just don't have as many LED's and they have more noticable gaps.

The 11.1 Volt battery packs came out when the V2 Driver Boards came out for sale. I will have to double check this, but from what I remember you need the 11.1 Volt battery pack in order to get the Hyperblade to go to max brightness. The difference between max brightness with the 7.2 volt and the 11.1 volt may not be huge ... but I do believe to get it to full potental you need the bigger battery. I will try and confirm this asap.

you don't have to worry about frying the Driver Board or the Blade Board, just keep the battery pack to no more than 12 Volts and everything should be fine.

It seems possible that if the Blue Blade Board came with a 7.2 Volt battery, then it may be a V1. The only other reason to use the 7.2 Volt (if you have a V2 Driver Board) is if the space in your hilt won't fit the larger battery.

Jedibum
04-11-2008, 12:37 AM
Also, I want to thank Eandori for taking the time to get some facts out about the Hyperblade. I know first hand that no matter how many times I told people the Hyperblades lasted for 30-45 minutes ... I would keep hearing how you only had a few minutes till they went out. I never know how these ideas just keep going and going, but I know no matter what I said it didn't seem to stop them. Hopefully the facts you get from your tests will help stop some of the false rumors for good.

Eandori
04-11-2008, 07:54 AM
Then this board is definitely a V2, at least for the blue Hyperdyne. Because I can go into battery select mode and see the blade blink once or twice for 7.2v mode or 11v mode. These blades though... they might be version 1. It looks VERY even on the video I made but in person I can see darker spots which must be gaps between the LED's.

Ok, I will go ahead and build a 10.8v (rated) battery out of 1000mAh AAA NiMH cells, or I might even switch over to some RC Car cells (3500mAh, same voltage 1.2v each, biggest difference is VERY low internal resistance.) I'm expecting the Hyperdyne board to regulate it's own current, not depend on weak batterys to limit current so I should be fine.

To your last response, hey I'm all about getting the truth out there. I know I was a nuisance when I was bugging you with your comparisons, but now those roles are reversed :) I'm going to spend a decent amount of time verifying all this hardware before I run the actual comparison.

I just got your email, sounds great. Light meter + measured values on their way to me next week. Wonderful!!!

EDIT: Quick note... I just looked at the pictures of the V2 LED array on the Hyperdyne website http://www.hyperdynelabs.com/hyperblade/purchase.php I'm pretty positive these are the V1 blade strips. The LED's in those V2 pictures look much more densely packed onto the PCB.

Also, Jim Shiima really needs to update his feature mapping between saber technologies. It seems very misleading as a Luxeon saber with a CF board has many of the effects he's claiming they do not. As I'm sure you know, since you have that Oddy2 saber from Erv'.

Cheers.

xwingband
04-11-2008, 09:27 AM
As far as Jim's concerned Erv copied him and would never acknowledge that. Plus he could always say that the chart is true... it's not his ClashEffect(TM).

He also states Luxeons aren't as bright as Plasma... maybe back when I's were the norm. Not so now. I'm one of the few that still probably own one and it's not so great anymore, Luxeons certainly match if not exceeds Plasma.

Darth_DevilGuy
04-11-2008, 09:42 AM
I'm not going to question the hyperblades look, they look great, but what I think turns alot of the community off of them isn't technical specs but jim's blatant lying about other people's products, if you look at his site he's either lying or hasn't updated anything not favorable or directly related to his own stuff in years. Honestly I like his product but he strikes me as kinda self centered and too into self promotion.

Marsupial
04-11-2008, 01:57 PM
As far as Jim's concerned Erv copied him and would never acknowledge that.
as far as everyone is concerned, Jim copied MR and Corbin, but Jim would not acknowledge that.

Anyway...
While he was developing his blades (the pre-V1 ones), I asked 3 simple questions which he never ever answered, still up to this date. even when I re-asked on several occasions.

That alone made that most people didn't believe his statements regarding his blades.

I still can't have anything answered from him regarding the blade brightness, power consumption, robustness.
enough said.

Jedibum
04-11-2008, 02:39 PM
Darth_DevilGuy - I think you are a little out of line trying to imply Jim is posting lies about other people's products. I don't see where you are getting that and I hope you don't spread that lie.

If you are familiar with Jim's website than you know that most of what is on there has been on there for multiple years ... so if you are referring to the page that says Luxeon's don't have scrolling effect or clash effect or things like that ... it's because it was listed before we had Crystal Focus or Ultra Sound. And while I have not spoken to Jim about it, the fact that he has patent issues with other sound boards may be why he has not bothered to update it. Either way, it seems like you have a lot of hostility toward Jim and Hyperblades and I dought it just comes from a "updating the website" problems.

Marsupial - Jim did not copy MR. For those that think MR came first that is incorrect. Jim was making realistic, high quality lightsaber sound before MR even had a contact with Lucas. Jim even took his lightsaber sound system to C1 to see if he could get any interest in it. I don't know corbins history with lightsabers and lightsaber sound so I can't comment on that ... but it's a fact that Jim came before MR.

Also, Marsupial, I have been publicly answering all of those questions on these forums for years.

Darth_DevilGuy
04-11-2008, 03:22 PM
I am reffering to that, it's been there for years, it should either be taken down or updated, like I said I'm not down on his products or implying anything, but the fact is that the information he gives out is behind the times and misleading in a way thats favorable to him.

In this situation thats a conflict of interest as well as a detriment to his public image, claim whatever you want but make DAMN sure you can back it up or you'll get burned, the community's attitude toward him is a direct reflection of this. Again I have nothing against him, but when the info he's using to promote his products is obviously wrong, and long out of date it calls everything he says about his stuff, true or not, into question.

Honestly I'm glad to see him still out there, but he really needs to update his site and do a little work on his PR, when you make the statements he does you're going to have to prove it, and bad or out of date info on your competition won't help you one little bit.

Jedibum
04-11-2008, 09:27 PM
Well, you say you aren't implying anything but I think it's clear you are trying to suggest that Jim is deliberatly misleading people. That's clearly implying something. When it's a fact that at the time that information was posted (and for a long time after) what it says was exactlty correct. So the information on the website hasn't changed, and it's a fair argument to say that new technology has changed the facts. But to make the leap that Jim is purposely misleading the public because a list of information has become outdated is a far leap in my opinion ... unless you already have a negative view and you let that taint what you think.

And, as far as the idea that in the lightsaber community you better be able to back up your claims with facts or you'll get burned is just a joke in my opinion. As many years as I have been involved I have seen lies and false facts traded throught all these forums and people rarely get burned ... most just get to go on saying whatever they want. To imply that there is some kind of strict rule that we all uphold and we all make sure we don't believe anything until we see facts is just funny. I hear the same false facts over and over again no matter how many times I or others post corrections.

I think you are putting too much mystery behind the hyperblade. I don't see how the possibly out-of-date information on his website can be used to call all of what he says about his product into question. People have actually purchased the hyperblade. And there have been many who posted about it on various forums, including the Hyperdyne forum on fx-sabers. Customers post their pictures and comments. It's not like it's a mysterious product that has been only seen and reviewed by Jim ... you have plenty of other people who own one who give first hand accounts about it or who would be happy to talk to you about it. If he's lying about his product it would be obvious to all who have purchased it. It's too late to say that he can be lying about it once it's out in the open.

Eandori
04-11-2008, 11:37 PM
Whoa, major thread de-rail going on here!

Let's just all agree that Jim's Hyperblade website NEEDS to be updated, and his products up to a few months ago were still largly misunderstood. And let's just leave that as that. If you guys want to continue discussing history of who did what first and who is spreading false facts purposely, please make another thread and discuss it there. I reallly want to keep this thread specifically on the subject of a fair and top notch, data driven saber comparison.

No offense meant to anybody, let's just "stay on target..."

Darth_DevilGuy
04-12-2008, 12:41 AM
ok one last reply and I'll drop it or take it elsewhere, Jedibum, I never said or implied in anyway that I thought Jim was purposefully misleading people, read exactly what I said, if you still come away with that impression it's all you.

What I did say was that purposeful or not, Jim's promotional materials regarding other peoples products are not accurate, and this could give people the impression that he's trying to smear the compitition, that was my initial impression, and I'm still not completely sure it isn't the truth, my current impression is that he's not very good at community relations, or he just doesn't care, honestly I just think he needs better PR.

Novastar
04-12-2008, 01:50 AM
Just TAKE it elsewhere, period.

I for one am going to come out RIGHT NOW and say--JEDIBUM... THANKS! Thank you, thank you! For being gracious and cool enough to make logical comments and post videos and weather the storm of some questions that don't always help the truth get out there.

I am also going to thank Edwin... BRAVO AND THANKS!! :) I mean, I do not have an electronic science background, so I'm glad his comparison is going to go into more depth than mine.

All that being said--I am glad we have Jedibum's video, my videos, AND Edwin's. I do not see it that "video X invalidates video Y". Everyone does things differently, and it is what it is.

BACK TO ON-TOPIC.

Edwin, whoa, so that Blue is a v2??! Holy cow, I got thrown off by the 7.2v pack it was wired up to... but that is good to know... I'll at least make a change in my descriptors on my video to show that it is actually a v2 board. But then... we have a bunch of v1 blades. Geez. lol Well... you could see where I'd get confused, especially not having any kind of manual available online(?? At least, I couldn't find one) stating an easy way to detect a v1blade over v2blade. At least Jedibum has pointed out that detection of the BOARD version is somewhat more distinct and conclusive.

As to the updating of Jim's website--well, sure he could stand to do that. I do not think it makes sense to say he is lying though, since the data on the site reflected (as stated in the thread previously) conditions PRIOR to any versions of CF... and I believe it was well before any K2s were around... or even before anyone was REALLY using Lux Vs in giant amounts. As it is... Lux V is not nearly as prevalent in usage for sabers as say Lux III or K2 or similar 3.6 or 3.9 volt forward voltage guys.

ANyhow... it seems clear that better instructions and details could help out??? I don't know... maybe I'm wrong.

Eandori
04-12-2008, 09:56 AM
The board in the blue saber is V2, but I got conflicting information from Jedibum and Mark Cheng about the blade. Jedibum said V2 blade LED's are closer together, Mark said it's no different, V1 just has a different feature that he described over email. So... I'm not 100% sure what I have... possibly one of the blue blades is V1 and the other is V2.

This much does seem clear though. I think both V1 and V2 blades can be driven from a V2 board at 11v battery input. Is that correct Jedibum? That's what I'm going to do unless I hear otherwise.

Just for the record, I build 2 Crystal Focus 3.1 luxeon sabers recently. One for me with Green Luxeon V at 1 amp, and one for a friend with Green K2 at 1.5amps. After I finished my friends saber we had the two side by side (which I have never done before) and I gotta tell you it was a HUGE difference between the brightness of them. I'll have him bring his saber back soon, get both to full power on the same CF font/settings, and take a few pictures or some video to show. I want to make it very clear to all the sabersmiths out there how much brighter a luxeon V at 1 amp is then a K2 at 1.5 amps.

Hasid Lafre
04-12-2008, 10:06 AM
YEs I am very cureious about this luxV vs k2 thing.

Jedibum
04-12-2008, 04:01 PM
Hey guys! I agree, I would love to see pics comparing a K2 Green and a Lux V Green both driven at max! I always assumed the Lux V is brighter, but I've never actually seen a comparision.

Eandori - Yes, both the V1 and V2 Blade Boards are compatible with the V2 Driver ... and both can be used with the 11volt battery ... and both can achieve the same level of brightness. The difference is the V2 Blade Boards will look nicer than the V1 Blade Boards.

xwingband
04-12-2008, 04:45 PM
To me there is a noticable step from Green III to Green K2 to Green V and Rebel. The Rebel is on par with the V but obviously different volts and amps.

Novastar
04-12-2008, 05:18 PM
Ah, ***y cool, THAT clears it up. Thanks again! Now dangit... why isn't some of THAT stuff on the site or in some kind of document? Oh well, whatever.

As to Lux V vs. K2--I can certainly imagine that:

* Given excellent blade diffusion (therefore less "loss" of light)
* Given PROPERLY driven Lux V (that means not just barely @ 6.85v or even merely 7.2v)
* Excellent mirror, not too ridiculously long of a blade...
* Properly aligned optics (probably 5 deg)

...a Lux V should definitely be brighter vs. a K2--even when driven "normally" at 700ma.

If you are OVER-driving the Lux V (such as when Edwin is doing)... that will most CERTAINLY boost the light energy, and my guess is you'd be getting something like 190 to 210 lumens instead of the manufacturer's spec of 160 @ 700ma.

Granted, I do not know for certain. I'm sure Eandori can meter this kind of thing though! But yes, when talking 200 lumens (Lux V over-drive) vs. 130 lumens (Lux K2 normal-drive)... well... HELLO, that's starting to near a 50% increase when compared to the K2's numbers. That's a lot... :)

Darth_DevilGuy
04-12-2008, 05:30 PM
sorry if I let my argumentative nature get the better of me, I'd like to see that comparison with the green blades as well.

Novastar
04-12-2008, 05:40 PM
I *DO* have one single Lux V... I suppose I could try it one of these days, but... I really wouldn't have any other battery solution for a driver setup, and... I'd probably go direct drive (probably no resistor, or a really low/small one) with 7.2v (effective 8.4!!!! at full charge!) and see what happens. Why not use a resistor? Well, I'd sort of want to "cheat" an over-drive situation, and giving the extra voltage would yield extra current (since they are relational)... and pray I wasn't going TOO far. You know, like... hope it's giving it like 1A or something. Very scientific, huh? hahahahah :D

So, yeah, I've been reluctant because... I really don't know what 8.4v will do to a Lux V, hahahahah... :confused: :mrgreen:

Now, if I went with pretty much ANY driver, there would be no point with 7.2v... I'd want to go to 9v or more since the driver would suck down 1v or whatever, and pretty much render the Lux V UNDER-DRIVEN while using a 7.2v setup.

Arg, I hate 6.85 fwd v. Sucks monkey nutbutter.

Eandori
04-13-2008, 05:22 AM
THAT is exactly why I went with 7AAA's soldered together in a barrel roll type setup! Meaning it's about the same size as a single "C" size cell and fits in a MHS tube. It's effectively 8.4v (rated, up to 10.5v measured which is enough to forward bias the luxeon V at 1 amp). With 1000mAh cells I get about an hour of runtime. And finally since it's NiMH I can go right ahead and build clash flash into my lightsaber and not worry about yanking out an extra 5 amps when I want to.

I'm really loving this setup. Seriously, so much room for other electronics in the saber tube and I really appreciate the brightness of Lux V at 1 amp. 1 hour is plenty for ME, but if I wanted more I would use 7-8 AA's (at 2500mAh) for a clash flash lightsaber, or 3x 18650 Lithium Ions at 2400mAh if no clash flash.

EDIT: Added a picture.
Ok, here's a picture of the electronics going into my latest Luxeon Sabers. CF version 3.1, 7x AAA's at 1000mAh, Green Lux V, no clash flash ckt yet, no vibration motor yet, no blinking LED's yet.
http://home.comcast.net/~eandori/Proto3a_innards.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~eandori/Proto3a_Battery.JPG

Hasid Lafre
04-13-2008, 08:56 AM
pic dont work for me

Malaki Skywalker
04-13-2008, 09:01 AM
No pic for me either :confused:

Eandori
04-13-2008, 10:47 AM
Ok, pictures are fixed. Comcast still lets me post files online, even though my account with them has been canceled for a year and a half.

Stupid Verizon gave me 1 gig of free online storage with my FIOS, but I can't for the life of me get FTP to connect to their file servers. And their "simple" graphical web interface is a serious P.O.S.

Eandori
04-14-2008, 01:58 PM
Ok, big update here.

Mark Cheng responded with some measured current values on his Hyperdyne sabers. It DOES APPEAR that the current I measured in this setup is indeed too low. Possibly the result of my battery voltage, or possibly due to something being wrong in the hardware. Anyways, here is the values that Mark sent for his.

Green Hyperdyne at 11v 750mAh battery: 3.1amps
Blue Hyperdyneat 11v 750mAh battery: 3.42amps
Purple Hyperdyneat 11v 750mAh battery: 2.72amps

my setup 7.2v 750mAh battery: about 1.5amps average.

So that answers it!! That's why Jim Shiima's Hyperdyne instructions says 10 min runtime, and that's why I was measuring a 34 min runtime. Because something was causing the current in my setup to be too low. Look at the math on the current measured in Mark's setup, it make sense.

3.42amps, in a 750mAh battery.
750/3420 = 0.22 or 22% of 1 hour.
x/60 = 22/100, solving for X gives 13.2

So we would EXPECT a properly working Hyperblade with a 750mAh battery to last about 13 min on full power. Mine measured out at less current used... which resulted in a longer runtime. What does that mean??

That means the Hyperdyne Saber I'm using now can be a lot brighter. I need to get it's operating current up to where it SHOULD BE. Only then can I make a fair comparison video for brightness. It's also entirely possible that the brightness comparisons done in Novastar's video might not be valid. No insult to Novastar at all, I'm just stating the facts. He did a good job laying sabers side by side and giving a wide selection, he just missed step1 of a good comparison... validate your setup first.

Before anybody jumps in... please NO FLAMING Novastar, NO FLAMING Mark Cheng or Jedibum. This is not conspiracy, people hiding stuff, etc. Leave that crap in another thread. THIS THREAD IS ABOUT FACT FINDING. Nobody doing comparisons is perfect, and I might very easily make mistakes too. So please feel free to point out any mistakes I'm making or things I overlook, but NO PERSONAL ATTACKS.

Jedibum
04-14-2008, 02:14 PM
I got your e-mail. Very interesting news. Good thing you were able to find this problem before the tests progressed any further.

Like you said, it's got nothing to do with Novastar. He could never have known this with the Hyperblade appearing to function correctly. If I had one like this, I would never know unless I was able to hold it next to an identical fully working one of the same color.

Also, for people that have very little knowledge of the Hyperblade ... you get a better run times at lower brightness settings. I usually run my Hyperblade at level 6 or 7 and I get a pretty decent 25 - 30 minutes with my battery set-up. At MAX level it does run out fast.

xwingband
04-14-2008, 02:36 PM
Well, if those are indeed batteryspace packs that would be taxing the batteries like mad. It may be possible that after so many drains like that the capacity and raw abilty to pump current is retarded. The specs at batteryspace state a 1.9A limit on the drain... that's based on the cell too as the PCB doesn't cut until higher.

I mean jeez, I think I'd consider NiCD's at that amperage.

Eandori
04-14-2008, 02:42 PM
Yeah, no insult to Novastar. He simply missed the step of verifying his hardware. And there's no way I would have gone on with comparisons without doing this, it was my intention from day 1... verify all the hardware and verify my comparison setup is valid. That was one of the whole reasons Novastar sent this equipment to me, because he knew I had the training and background to perform a test like this. If Novastar wanted to "hide" information he would not have sent this stuff to somebody like me.

That's the entire reason I contacted both you and Mark, to leverage your experience with Hyperdyne setups since I didn't know much about them. That's also the reason I'm posting information about the comparison way before the fact. So people can read about the setup and ask questions before it happens.

I'll make another post fairly soon and list out all the details on how I'm planning to do the comparison. Much of those details I already told you, Mark, Erv' and Novastar via email. But I'll list out all the rest of the future comparison details soon.


Well, if those are indeed batteryspace packs that would be taxing the batteries like mad. It may be possible that after so many drains like that the capacity and raw abilty to pump current is retarded. The specs at batteryspace state a 1.9A limit on the drain... that's based on the cell too as the PCB doesn't cut until higher.

I mean jeez, I think I'd consider NiCD's at that amperage.
I think you hit the nail on the head Xwing. Totally agree. He should be using NiMH cells with current values over 3 amps! Lithium Ion is NOT MEANT for current that high, but NiMH is. This appears to be the exact battery pack this Hyperblade system came with. Note, just like Xwing said the max current is 1.9A
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1340

This looks like the battery that WAS in the Green Hyperblade before it fried on Novastar. The max current output is listed at 2.8amps and based on Mark Chengs information the circuit wants to draw 3.1amps from the battery. So... after some time, that will destroy the battery.
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2576

Seems that Jim's battery selection for his products was very bad. Based on what I'm seeing here, I would reccomend that Hyperblade users switch to NiMH packs built out of AAA's at 1000mAh and 9 cells for the same voltage.

Mad Hatter
04-14-2008, 04:26 PM
While on the topic of over-taxing batteries...
For those using CF, it isn't just the batteries that suffer. Erv pointed out that pulling too much current from batteries will cause a voltage ripple can damage the CF board. He recommended using batteries rated at least double what the board pulls to keep the voltage steady.

Here is the thread:

http://forums.thecustomsabershop.com/showthread.php?t=4294

Novastar
04-14-2008, 09:52 PM
Excellent point Mad Hatter. Eandori and I were JUST talking about that sort of thing!

Oh, and as to my tests... no worries--I am not taking offense to people pointing out new discoveries! Especially when... yes... it was *I* who sent those sabers to Edwin, lol. Also--even if I HAD some magical suspicion that the blue saber was having an issue... I would not have had any special equipment (nor comparison material) with which to do the verification... or a repair. Let alone the electronics experience & knowledge. Not to mention I didn't find the manual (which had to be pointed out to me) very helpful for this sort of thing.

Anyhow... yes, it does seem like any number of us "need improvement" and a good way to look at it is with video, comparisons, realizations and differing opinions/testing.

Two things... IMPORTANT ones:

* I'm looking forward to seeing if it is indeed a board issue... or a "hi, I'm the batteries and I freakin' QUIT!" kind of thing. The cells may be too old now and too overtaxed to handle things...

* I'm looking forward to seeing if the green saber has a board issue, as... the test video I created had THAT saber running *DIRECTLY* off of a charger to wall outlet. In other words--no excuse for battery level there... it was getting 11.1v at all times!

That all being said... the green saber was technically the one that was the best to compare vs. the green Flange III saber. All I can say is... the Flange III saber gave the green H-blade a run for its money. Was the H-blade brighter? Probably... but... exactly as I state in the video--certainly not by some catastrophic amount.

I can also say that--although the visual part of my videos were imperfect (due to compression over youtube, lighting bias from camera, etc.)... I'd say they gave a PRETTY GOOD representation. In other words... when I looked at the video myself--it seemed about right in most cases. Some color things were strange though... especially royal blue not looking AT ALL like royal blue. I don't know WHY, but... are any of us still surprised by this? Video not being "true to life"? lol

Anyhow... I think this is all pretty cool. Maybe overly-nerdy for myself and many of us, but... hey--here's to saber over-nerddom!!! hahahah

SpectreT65
04-15-2008, 07:09 PM
I *DO* have one single Lux V... I suppose I could try it one of these days, but... I really wouldn't have any other battery solution for a driver setup, and... I'd probably go direct drive (probably no resistor, or a really low/small one) with 7.2v (effective 8.4!!!! at full charge!) and see what happens. Why not use a resistor? Well, I'd sort of want to "cheat" an over-drive situation, and giving the extra voltage would yield extra current (since they are relational)... and pray I wasn't going TOO far. You know, like... hope it's giving it like 1A or something. Very scientific, huh? hahahahah :D

So, yeah, I've been reluctant because... I really don't know what 8.4v will do to a Lux V, hahahahah... :confused: :mrgreen:

Now, if I went with pretty much ANY driver, there would be no point with 7.2v... I'd want to go to 9v or more since the driver would suck down 1v or whatever, and pretty much render the Lux V UNDER-DRIVEN while using a 7.2v setup.

Arg, I hate 6.85 fwd v. Sucks monkey nutbutter.Just a heads up on this... a fully charged 7.2v 1000 mAh rated pack from the store, using the smart charger from the store to do that full charge, blew my Lux V Royal Blue on a direct drive without resistor. Sorry, no meters to tell you exactly what kind of punch killed it.

xwingband
04-15-2008, 07:23 PM
I'm not surprised ... Most LEDs I've seen are below the "rated" voltage. The last one I used was 6V. A full charged li-ion pack would be 8.4V or so. So yes, poof.

SpectreT65
04-15-2008, 07:35 PM
Actually, this was a Nickel-Metal Hydride, but the point stands, as does the shiny silver dome of what used to be an LED. Poor thing gave its life so I could learn something...

Eandori
04-15-2008, 08:13 PM
Just a heads up on this... a fully charged 7.2v 1000 mAh rated pack from the store, using the smart charger from the store to do that full charge, blew my Lux V Royal Blue on a direct drive without resistor. Sorry, no meters to tell you exactly what kind of punch killed it.

I really don't understand the point being made with this. Just like Xwing said, I would FULLY expect your LED to fry with that setup. Running Luxeons with no limiting resistor is... dangerous to the Luxeon. Almost always a bad idea, the LED will normally NOT be operating at it's best. It will either be over driven, or under driven with a very short period of time where it's properly driven (when the slowly depleting battery just happens to match the required forward voltage of the LED.)

But to your point, yeah a meter can tell you exactly what killed it. If you had your Luxeon connected to anything that could measure voltage across it, or current through it then you could see exactly what happened. In this case, I 100% guarentee that it was too much current, which was a result of too much voltage.

Still, I don't see how that ties to Novastar's comment. I missed something.

SpectreT65
04-15-2008, 08:58 PM
My comment was prompted by his "...I *DO* have one single Lux V... I suppose I could try it one of these days, but... I really wouldn't have any other battery solution for a driver setup, and... I'd probably go direct drive (probably no resistor, or a really low/small one) with 7.2v (effective 8.4!!!! at full charge!) and see what happens. ".

Done and done, by me; and I now know better.

Based on my own experience, I was suggesting that he drop the "no resistor" idea; the math looks close, and I had a few others check my math before I tried it, but you and X both already figured this would happen; eh, $20-something's not a bad price to pay to learn a little bit more. I'd prefer not to learn enough electronics to do this hobby by leaving a ton of fried parts in my wake, though... :D

Eandori
04-15-2008, 11:55 PM
Ah got cha. Thanks.

Yeah, I blew a few LED's myself. Not by my lack of training, but by my lack of noticing the shredded insulation on the outside of my battery pack when it went into my saber. Grounding the battery to the saber hilt. Then... red LED's often have the + side tied directly to their heatsink...

Then the other LED's I lost while helping Erv' debug the CF adjustable parameters. CF shot several amps through my LED's and toasted them on earlier version boards with strange settings in the config file. Another LED I lost trying to hot swap assuming that since CF regulates current and I had two different fwd voltage LED's requiring the same current I could hot swap. Nope, resetting the board was required and I lost those too.

I have not yet lost a Luxeon V... (knocks on wood)

Back on topic... I bought 9x AA's at 2500mAh each tonight and soldered them into a battery that I can use for testing out the Hyperdyne with a 1.2x9 = 10.8v (rated) battery. Fully charged and unloaded the battery should push out closer to 13.5v but the rating is correct. It's charging now, so we shall see what happens.

Novastar
04-16-2008, 03:21 AM
Spectre... I *ALSO* said: "I've been reluctant to try this because... I really don't know what 8.4v would do to a Lux V."

But I should have clarified. I *DO* know. I did know. That would be TOO much. Even 7.2v would be questionable, possibly.

For the case of direct drive, so far in reality, I've used batteries that *EXACTLY* match the fwd v (such as 3.0v Alkaline with a Lux III red/amber/etc. which is like 2.95 volts forward.)...

...or batteries that SLIGHTLY fall BELOW the Luxeon's fwd v (such as a 3.7v Li-Ion for a Luxeon III green or whatever... which is like 3.85 or 3.9v or something).

Anyhow... sorry if you thought I was telling you to jump off a cliff of current when the voltage was heinous!!! I wasn't!!! D'OHHHHHH!!

SpectreT65
04-16-2008, 09:10 AM
No worries, Novastar. The thing worked fine with no resistor and a very slightly run down battery pack (almost fully charged), I only fried it when I hooked up a fully charged one. And I'm a big boy with a well-thumbed copy of Ugly's. I did the math, talked it over with a few other people; like I said, the math looked close, and I gambled on things being over protectively rated, but in the end: I rolled the dice and came up craps.

Anywho, I suspect that's enough on this side track. Back to the Hyper/Lux comparisons; I'm learning a ton about a system that seems way too fragile to be practical, here. :D

Eandori
04-16-2008, 12:18 PM
Ok, new update.

The new testing battery was built and it appears that both Hyperdyne Sabers are functioning well so far. They are both drawing the proper values of current that is expected, and they are much brighter at 11v then 7.2v. Also the values I see for the bigger battery match what Mark Cheng sent to me via his own testing. So everything looks good now.

I will get Mark's light meter very soon here and then I can do my final step in verifiying hardware, making sure my measured light values match his. Then I'll finally start with the comparison videos. Here's some pictures of the new battery I made and the current measured in the blue/green Hyperdyne sabers.

Quick Note: If I owned a Hyperdyne setup, I would either use 9x AAA's or 3x 18650 lithium Ions for my saber. That would be a much better battery setup for the demands of this hardware.

This is the new test battery. 9x AA's at 10.8v (rated) and 2500 mAh. Should give over 30 min of runtime at max setting. But a different config would be needed to fit into a saber tube. I'm keeping these cells so I just built a quick battery for testing here.
http://home.comcast.net/~eandori/H-bladeBatteryCharge.JPG

Here is the blue, much brighter then at 7.2v!!
http://home.comcast.net/~eandori/Blue_w_new battery.JPG

Here is the green, I can already tell it's brighter then Luxeon V at 1 amp even very well diffused. But still Green Luxeon V at 1 amp is a LOT closer the Hyperdyne the anything blue luxeon is to Blue Hyperdyne.
http://home.comcast.net/~eandori/Green_w_new battery.JPG

Hasid Lafre
04-16-2008, 12:26 PM
So a 1a blue luxV is close to a max setting bluehyperdyne?

Or did I read that wrong?

Eandori
04-16-2008, 12:36 PM
No no, maybe I need to reword it. The results I see in front of me are exactly what I said was expected on Jedibum's comparisons.

If you compare the BEST Blue Luxeon to the BEST Blue Hyperdyne, the Hyperdyne should be much brighter, by a large value.

If you compare the BEST Green Luxeon to the BEST Green Hyperdyne, the green luxeon still loses but it's much closer to Hyperdyne brightness then the blue was.

I said awhile ago in other threads this was expected... because LED technology is DIFFERENT then Luxeon technology. A standard Blue/Green LED are similar in light output. A Green Luxeon V is 160 to 180+ lumens, and Blue Luxeon V is 45 to 60 lumens both depending on current. Simply put, blue luxeon is not as strong as green luxeon is. So if you compare a different technologies, we should expect what I'm observing. Green Luxeon is closer to Green H-blade, then Blue Luxeon is to Blue H-blade.

Hopefully that's as clear as mud. :)

Malaki Skywalker
04-16-2008, 12:49 PM
So if a Lux V is pumping out a good 180 lumen, 2 rebel greens on a star both powered @ 700Ma, there needed input, would be about 290 lumen? if theres not much difference between the H-blade and the Lux V, the rebel would hold up very well by the sound of it

xwingband
04-16-2008, 01:45 PM
So if a Lux V is pumping out a good 180 lumen, 2 rebel greens on a star both powered @ 700Ma, there needed input, would be about 290 lumen? if theres not much difference between the H-blade and the Lux V, the rebel would hold up very well by the sound of it

A Rebel is comparable to the V. You wouldn't be able to focus a setup of two Rebels well enough yet though.

I recently futzed with an MR strip and I'm not surprised that the hyperdyne strip can consume that much power. I maxed my power supply at 3A. Now with lots more LEDs you could start consuming a lot of power.

Eandori
04-16-2008, 02:06 PM
Xwing is right on the money. You could have a million lumen LED, but it does not matter if nearly zero of it is focused up your blade tube. The proper optics don't exist yet for the rebels and other LED types.

xwingband
04-16-2008, 02:32 PM
The proper optics don't exist yet for the rebels and other LED types.

For multiple Rebels at least... singles have been around for months, but it will be a while before we can start throwing the lumens of multiples up the blade.

Hah, I just took off the SMD resistors on the MR strip I was futzing with. Now I get 4V and 3A before I run out amps on my supply. 3.6V and 2A looks really nice though. I think I need to buy some buckpucks and make a saber! Shows you how fast they can consume power though.

Eandori
04-16-2008, 02:35 PM
Nice work Xwing! Post some pictures!

Jonitus
04-16-2008, 02:49 PM
New competition? Who can drain a reference voltage/amperage pack the fastest? Suckiest runtime?

Eandori
04-16-2008, 03:23 PM
Giving up runtime for nothing is one thing... but in this case you give up run time and DO gain a brighter blade. So at least it's something.

Anyways let's keep this thread on track. Please keep questions comments to the end goal of getting a great comparison done. Then we can all rant/rave/voice opinions in another thread.

Marsupial
04-16-2008, 09:23 PM
Something that I'd like being taken into consideration when comparing the 2 blades, in addition to brightness, is battery life.

What if you can have a blue H-Blade 25% brighter then a blue Luxeon blade, but have only 25% of the total runtime?
Maybe an "about same brightness" green blade runs 2 times longer when it comes to luseon technology then when it comes H-blade?

OR

for a similar runtime, what's the luminosity?

because, that's also a factor, IMHO.

overall, we're talking (lumens/watts)

Eandori
04-17-2008, 09:27 AM
Right, that is a question that each person can ask themselves. BUT... NOBODY can ask themselves that confidently until the know what the true data is. That's all I'm doing here, is gathering the real facts in the most scientific, data-driven, documented way I know how to.

After I post my results (with any minor changes if I did something wrong...) then each individual person can make their OWN mind up to what technology they want.

Marsupial
04-17-2008, 10:04 AM
I don't quite understand how your answer links with my statement...

I'm saying that I'd like measurments taken in a specific way - light output compared to luminescence compared to life expectancy.

I'm not talking opinions here, but defining the scope of potential tests.

Eandori
04-17-2008, 11:19 AM
Oh, I see what you are saying now. You want to see how the brightness in both of them is effected as time goes on. Like do they get constantly dimmer until the batteries die. Right?

I can answer that generally now, but I will have data to show it later. The Luxeon saber has a current regulation circuit so it will stay at max brightness for MOST of the battery run time. The Hyperdyne seems to not have any battery regulation circuitry, so it will be the brightest at full charge then slowly get dimmer until it dies. In short, a Hyperdyne setup appears to be similar in some ways to a resistor driven setup.

It's a great comment and I'll take data that shows that trend on both. Thanks!!