10 and 15 watt COLOR LED's

[Dregan]

Credit this to Zero Unit, but did anyone look at these?

http://www.ledengin.com/ledengin_products-dataLZ.html

I'm looking at the 15-watt jobbies at the bottom.

You can run at 1000 mAh (not peak of 1500, but until someone gets a 1500 mAh driver...)

and they're only looking for ~10vF, or about 12v at the battery, which is easy to do.

Looking at the form factor, all I'd need to do is to grind an MHS heatsink so it's flat on one side, and these would fit in an MHS top to bottom. They look like regular optics will even fit.

After I get my UV done, I'm going to build one something with one of these, I think. (I'm running into delays on my UV because I put a wood stove in, and every free minute I have is spent cutting wood. On the upside, my gas bill this winter will be a joke.)

[Zero Unit]

Running one of those with a Thunder Power 5s 18.5v (for people who like to overdrive) 2100mAh Li-Po could work with a 40mm (~1.5") OD hilt. Dimensions are 100x34x33mm.

The catch with the 10W UVs is that they need to be bought in bulk (min. 73, for $85), and they need to be made before they are shipped, since they are not kept in stock.

Note that the 15W doesn't come on a star, as far as I can tell. It's on a 49mm long stick with the emitter at one end and the soldering points on the other.

[Hasid Lafre]

its got a 7mm foot print compared to the 4.something foot print that the 3w and 5w do. Wont fit to big

[Zero Unit]

That's because the 10W are really four emitters packed into a close-knit square under a single dome. The LedEngin 5W has the 4.10mm footprint though, and are 5W are all more powerful than the Lux versions, except for Red and Green, which are even.

Still, I'm tempted to try something with those 10W.

Perhaps these lenses could work:
http://www.led-spot.com/data/ROCKET.pdf
http://www.led-spot.com/data/CRS.pdf

Cree XR-C/E have a 6.8mm footprint, which is close to the 7mm required. Maybe with some very careful sanding, it could be done.

The LedEngin stars are 19.9mm, like every other star. The dome is 7.0mm, as we already know. If I am not mistaken, the Seoul P4 dome is 7.40mm at the base:

http://www.led-tech.de/images/products/resized/LT-980-1168875648.jpg

Will not optics designed for that also fit over the LedEngin? The LedEngin is also shorter than the Seoul P4, so not enough headroom shouldn't be an issue.

Seoul P4 Star dimensions with an emitter:
http://www.led-tech.de/images/products/resized/LT-980-1168875638.jpg

LedEngin star 10W dimensions:
http://ledengin.com/products/appnotes/LZ4-2xxx10-MCPCBapNote.pdf

Height with emitter is 5.87mm, where the Seoul P4 is 6.8mm.

Mounting optics is not entirely hopeless, there is a light. :wink:

[Hasid Lafre]

Now whats the Voltage and current requirements for the 10 and 15W leds?

[Zero Unit]

Forward voltage on a Bin F white 10W is 12.8 to 13.76V. That will get you from 285 to 356 lumens at 700mA, if I'm reading the chart correctly. Typical electrical characteristics at 25 degrees Celsius say 14.0Vf at 700mAh though. Needless to say, you'll need one of those Li-Pos to power this.

[Hasid Lafre]

Your gonna need to run it off a resistor, drivers are out of the question. unless you do 2 circuts and a voltage regulator so you dont kill the boards.

Your gonna need a resistor of some sort or your run times are gonna go out the window.

Li-polys are the crap of lithium batteries IMO.

[Novastar]

You don't need Li-Po to power this. You just need the correct voltage from any battery source, and a nice consistent feed of current.

The 18650 Li-Ion cells technically have the best stability architecturally and the most energy density ounce for ounce vs. most other cells (even other Li-Ions).

You don't have to trust me... I got this information from someone well-steeped in the industry who works for Apple and handles quite a bit of the whole Ipod batteries thing (which are Li-Ions).

[Dregan]

4 x 18650 and a single 700 (or 1000) mAh BuckPuck would be the ideal setup for these. Eff running a resistor. A Puck will handle up to 32v.

It's a big hilt, yes. But there's alternatives to 18650's, too. If you are willing to sacrifice a little runtime, you could do 4 x RCR2's or RCR123A's

Also, I'm gonna let someone else do a 10 watt UV. That's the point at which I start caring about my eyes. Maybe after I get my 3 watt made, I'll reconsider. Definately an issue if I have to buy 73 of them, though.

As far as optics, I'm still of the opinion that I can make regular optics work, I just need to add a few milimeters of height to the optic holder, which is an idea I've toyed with before when the K2's first came out (and I made it work then, too)

The only concern I'd have about putting one of these together is heat management. When I do this, I'll be lapping everything and using Arctic Silver 5 and maybe even incorporating a cooling fan and vents. None of this is new teritory.

[Soulkeeper7700]

wow i dont even want to IMAGINE how bright a green 10 or 15 watt led would be... not to mention how hot it might get. but it would be blinding. would definitely win in any duel though.lol

[Zero Unit]

How big of a hilt are we talking for the 10W with 4x 18650s (which I forgot existed until mentioned here)? 14 inches? 16 inches? 20 inches? Because I had intended to try out one of those 10W UVs (yes, I'd buy all 73 (for $85, it isn't too bad), keep some for spares, sell off the rest) on a 14" hilt with no sound in the near future.

As far as heatsinks, I assume we would need a large block of metal (copper ideally, aluminum alternatively) inside to absorb it, right? I don't intend to have the saber on for more than maybe ten minutes at a time.

[Novastar]

In terms of the 18650s, well, that depends on how wide your OD and ID is but... let's give this example:

With a 1.5" sink tube (the right kind), and probably a little sanding...
You could fit two 18650 side-by-side (double-barrel shotgun style if it gets it visually for you)...
And then another set side-by side...
This would take up a total length of about 5" (2.5 + 2.5).

You could not do this with an MHS, and you most certainly could not do this with a 1.25" tube. In all likelihood, I'd say you'd want a custom tube with JUST big enough ID to get the batteries in there as above.

Another option is to go with a super long "stick" and run it up and down the course of the entire saber (so 10"), and overlap other items... but that might not work depending on switches, electronics and so forth. Then again... if you are going for just a resistor--or a small puck--you might have room!

The key is either making mock-ups to test fits... or just experiment once you have most of your parts.

[Zero Unit]

I see. Thanks for the information, it gives me a couple of ideas.

[Dregan]

Additionally, you could squeeze the sinktub so that it's no longer truly round, more of an oblong - that would fit 2 18650's side by side. It would be more like a katana hilt. It'd also be very comfortable in the hand, provided you use the right wrap or cushioning and grip material.

Be sure to have the heatsink mounted before you compress the tube, to keep that end round.

After I get through the holiday rush, I'll take a look at this more intently.

[darthnerdold]

You might be able to put it in a full Maul and disguise it as a Tatooine mode the whole time.

[Lord Maul]

What is it with you and reviving ancient threads?
You do the same thing on FX Sabers all the time

[darthnerdold]

Sorry. It was just a suggestion. And I haven't been here for a terribly long time, so why not give a suggestion?

[Darth Zecks]

I am no genius when it comes to LEDs but could you take one of those 15w cut the board down and re-due the solder points, or something like that, so instead of 45mm it would be like 10 or 15?

[Zero Unit]

Even so, the only way I can see using a 10W or 15W is in a proto-saber type setup, with the battery in a separate assembly.

[Hasid Lafre]

If iam reading the pdf right it only gets about 120 light output(lumens iam guessing) at 1500mah and 11 something forward voltage.

Does that sound right?

[Zero Unit]

For which color and which power level?

For the best of the 10W:
Green typically gets 759lm @ 1000mA (U-bin).
Red typically gets 485lm @1000mA (S-bin).
Blue typically gets 205lm @ 1000mA (N-bin)
UV typically gets 3700mW @ 1000mA (R-bin).

[Malaki Skywalker]

For which color and which power level?

For the best of the 10W:
Green typically gets 759lm @ 1000mA (U-bin).
Red typically gets 485lm @1000mA (S-bin).
Blue typically gets 205lm @ 1000mA (N-bin)
UV typically gets 3700mW @ 1000mA (R-bin).

For a start you would need a very very big battery pack second imagine all the heat that thing must give off that would need to be a major heat sink, its a nice idea and all but it would undoubtedly be very hard to pull off

[Zero Unit]

Exactly, hence why I said the only semi-practical application would be a proto-saber style hilt, though the power cord would have to actually be a power cord, and not just for looks. The battery would be too big to fit into any decently sized hilt.

[Novastar]

Regarding the heat, well... if the entire saber hilt was crafted to act VERY efficiently as one big heatsink... and the driver used was doing SOME sort of PWM, or at least technically "turning on and off" often enough with enough flicker... and you made sure to use some really nice heatsink paste for extra luck... AND you essentially polished the heck out of the star base on the LED and the heatsink point it met up to (basically "lapping" the heatsink and LED base)...

...this MIGHT be able to work.

Granted, it would indeed be an expensive venture. And yes, for the experiment, I'd say pay no mind to fitting everything into the hilt as of yet, since prototyping it for proof-of-concept would be most important... before wasting your time fitting the cells "perfectly"... only to find the whole thing would just get too hot!

I, for one, like to experiment, and would try this. I don't yet have the time. But I might someday!

[TroyO]

Mouser now carries these, in single unit quantities.

http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?FS=TRUE&N=2093270+4294927808+1323038&Ns=P_SField

I'm thinking about trying this out. By the way, the "stick" this is mounted to is actually a flexy PCB, the actual LED is 7 MM x 7 MM, so it shouldn't be all that hard to use. I'm actually thinking the copper heatsink, to a MHS blade holder, sink tube and some thermal adhesive. I would think as long as I get the optics at the right height with some creative modification of the holder it should work.

I'll probably work out a custom battery pack, not sure but it shouldn't be that hard.

Damn.... the star's would be such an easy upgrade tho.. LOL from 140 to 380... and only $31....

[LeMoel]

would a 9 v run these?

[TroyO]

A single 9V? I doubt they would have enough oomph (Amps) available. A pack made out of AA or AAA's should be able to do it. I have another post going in the LED Wiring forum where I'm so far talking to myself, but I think I've figured out how to run these guys using the drivers that are already available, with normal battery packs of 4 AA's.

[Marsupial]

keep in mind that a 9V battery is a serie of 6 AAAA cells (quadruple As, as in - smaller then triple As)... therefore, a 9V battery won't have much power compared to 6 AAs.

[TroyO]

Yeah, I hadn't thought it all the way through. I was thinking you could divide the array into 4 seperate LED's, each running 250 MA at 4.something volts. I realized afterwards that you still need 1000 MA through each LED... 'Doh! You can divide the voltage that way, but not the current.

Current thought is 2X 700 MA BuckPuck's @ 9.6V using 8x2100 MAh AA cells.

[darthnerdold]

WE just want to kill ours eyes with brightness, don't we! jk, I like 'em bright too, but I don't want it to appear white because my eyes can't handle it.

[Marsupial]

WE just want to kill ours eyes with brightness, don't we! jk, I like 'em bright too, but I don't want it to appear white because my eyes can't handle it.

looking white for being too bright would in fact be a good thing: if you look carefully in the movies, the blades aren't coloured. they are white with coloured aura...

[LeMoel]

I think the 10 watt red led is a good idea to get a better red, Im thinking of running one off a 9.6 battery 700 ma, cuz 1000 ma you need 10 v, and i think 260 lumens of red is good enough , its more than double the 3 watt luxeon.

But for the green and blue 10 watts I feel there isn't much point cuz the blue rebel led gets up to 78 lumens(thats a bright blue) and the green rebel is up to 175 lumens which is killer bright, royal blue rebel 825 mw(bright), Cyan rebel 160 lumens , EVEN bigger bonus is that these all run At low volts

blue 3.14v
green 3.15v
cyan 3.15v
Royal blue 3.15v

Can't really beat that voltage and lumen wise The RED 10 watt is would be good tho I feel:rolleyes:

AND THE REBELS ARE CHEAP 4-5$

[TroyO]

Until it melts through a sealed hatchway, It aint bright enough.... ;-P

[xwingband]

I think the 10 watt red led is a good idea to get a better red, Im thinking of running one off a 9.6 battery 700 ma, cuz 1000 ma you need 10 v, and i think 260 lumens of red is good enough , its more than double the 3 watt luxeon.

But for the green and blue 10 watts I feel there isn't much point cuz the blue rebel led gets up to 78 lumens(thats a bright blue) and the green rebel is up to 175 lumens which is killer bright, royal blue rebel 825 mw(bright), Cyan rebel 160 lumens , EVEN bigger bonus is that these all run At low volts

blue 3.14v
green 3.15v
cyan 3.15v
Royal blue 3.15v

Can't really beat that voltage and lumen wise The RED 10 watt is would be good tho I feel:rolleyes:

AND THE REBELS ARE CHEAP 4-5$

I don't get this reasoning... a Red III is in my opinion the brightest and nicest color. It's NOT 3W either... do the math.

Efficiency is where it's at to me. Pumping tons of volts doesn't appeal to me.

[LeMoel]

Are you saying that the 10 watt red wouldn't be brighter than the 3 watt red luxeon ?

I do like the 3 watt luxeon, its just that I wouldn't mind a bit brighter red just do you could be seen a tad bit better during the day, but ur right 3 watt is quite efficient no complaints here.:rolleyes:

for most of the other colors I really like the rebels PCB set up from ledtech

[xwingband]

It is NOT three watts. It's about 5W depending on the LED's exact voltage.

Efficiency is lumen per watt also. So I'm not saying the Red III will be brighter, but it's a hell of a trade off to get a brighter blade when you need a battery pack the size of a small child's arm.

[Novastar]

To second X's thoughts... really, the "Luxeon III" is *NOT* simply analogous to "3-watt". In fact, that has probably got to be the WORST misnomer the LED community has ever known. Probably made most popular by the flashlight companies/sellers, whatever.

Efficiency is indeed the best aspect to focus on, especially in the case of sabers. Who wants a hilt the size of a Volkswagon, after all? Or a child's arm, as X said, lol.

But all that being said--there *IS* a glass ceiling that will be hit sooner or later with lumens per volt/amount of current. Especially when considering things like RGB setups.

The Rebel RGB seems to be pretty efficient thus far, flying in at about 3v per color, but I really won't know about the brightness until I see it with my own eyes.

Still... that's NINE VOLTS. Not to mention, each of the color dies can be "maxxed" at 1000ma (max cont. curr.), and so if you were driving all of them ALL at once (to get a nice bright white)... that's quite a bit of current to throw, and your batteries are goin' bye-bye pretty quickly on any given charge.

Granted, you could run them all at 350ma also... but what's the point.

[Darth Relin]

maybe this design for the 15 wat led would work its just the baton style this is just a really fast sktech i did just so you could get the idea.

[Darth Relin]

oh and you have to click on my sketch twice to get it to come up clear sorry about that.

[LeMoel]

True I hear ya, but doing a test saber wont kill you, but do you think a 9.6v battery wont power this 10 watt red?

[Malaki Skywalker]

Theres no harm in trying it, i myself would use a power unit, blade holder and blade etc for experimenting but whatever is easiest ;)

[TroyO]

No need for baton style, the "stick" portion is a flexy PCB lead. Just bend it over.

http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/4900/lightsaberkb1.th.jpg (http://img381.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lightsaberkb1.jpg)

I ordered a 10 watter green, with 2X 700 MA (TCSS is out of 1000 MA) buckpuck to be used with 8X 2500 MAH AA's. (9.6V) At 1400 watt draw it should be good for over an hour, probably close to 2. I think anyway... LOL. I have an extra blade holder/Heatsink, so I got a sink tube adapter and will be using that, with thermal grease over all the joints to help the heat spread and dissapate, as well as polishing /lapping the LED itself to the heatsink for the best thermal management I can easily manage.

I'm also thinking about throwing a large cap between the power leads to the buckpucks, I *think* it may ramp up and down power.

The batts and LED were from Mouser.

About $150, between TCSS and Mouser. ($75-ish each)

If I had my druthers I would use the 1000 MA BuckPucks, but I didn't want to wait. It's an easy $35 upgrade when they do come in, if it proves out with the 700 MA units.

[Darth Relin]

i didint know it was flexable thats awesome. i just thot the batton style was good to put a nice size fan at the end of the grip for cooling :D

[LeMoel]

hmm 2 hours hey now i know what Xwing fully meant by efficency. If i were you I would use this

http://www.lawmancollectibles.com/catalog/9volt-12.jpg

or these 2 packs of these/plus investing in a charger

http://www.lawmancollectibles.com/servlet/Detail?no=57

[TD-2272]

Good luck and keep us informed!!

[TroyO]

Why those batteries?

I should be able to fit 2 bucks and the 8 pack of 2500 MAH's in a fairly standard size hilt. (Sink tube, 9-10 inches long or so)

I may add a little extra room for sound..... if I can find the remains of that old MR Vader that I broke ages ago. ;-P

I could have gone Li-Ion and saved some room but between the charger (I already have for NimH) and the cells themselves it was spendy.

[TroyO]

I got this puppy wired up last night.... 2X 700 MA Buckpucks at 9.6V. There's 4 LED's on the chip @15.something volts when in series. Luckily the pads for all leads are accessable, and nothing comes pre-soldered. So, a couple of soldered jumpers later I had 2 pairs of LED's in series.

Hooked up to two buckpucks running 700 MA, and man it is seriously bright. For the first time I really thought... wow, sunglasses or something would probably be wise when working on this! LOL.

It looks like the K2 optic holder will work, or would have worked if not for my blobby solder job. ;-P The height may need some fine tuning, but it basicly sits there pretty. the LuxIII model (I thinkI have those right?) with the bridge at the bottom doesn't sit there pretty... the ESD surface mount diodes get in the way.

Heat wise... just the heat sink alone gets too hot to hold in about 30 seconds. But, the whole heatsink/MHS sink tube adapter and type 1 blade holder was only nice and comfortably toasty after about 2 minutes. I think by the time I get it in a sink tube and take some effort to thermally connect the tube to the holder and thereby the heatsink it will be OK. It will get hot, but I don't think it will get plastic melty hot.

[TD-2272]

PICS!!!!! we want PICS!!!!!!! hehehehe cool dude, thanks for taking the leap

[TroyO]

I'll try and get some pics this weekend. Not sure how exciting yet, it's till in circuit development and testing at the moment. LOL, a couple of boards, some wires and a green spot on the wall...... ;-)

I'm trying (With some early sucess but no eureeka moment yet) to marry the MR FX kit to the buckpucks so I'll still get extend/retract and sound all together.

I have a post in the LED wiring forum about that.

[TroyO]

Update... still no pics, but I can take some now that have at least a little value, LOL.

The K2 Optics seem to work just fine. I had to do a little creative nibbling to get it to sit over where the wires attach and where the jumpers go from pad to pad.

It's kind of neat... since there are 4 LEDs on there, you get kind of a 4 leaf clover pattern when you shine it on the wall. It doesn't look like you can see the "gaps" in the beam, though.... it works fine when you have it pointing down a tube.

I have a blade, and the optics mounted so now I can take a couple of pics. I want to take some pics to compare with other blades too, but as of yet my red Lux III is with a friend, and the other folks I know with Lux III sabers didn't have them charged when I was over the other day. Soo.. I will try to get some basic pics posted this week, and maybe some side by side comp shots within the next couple of weeks. Starfest in Denver will probably be my best shot at that.

Some sucess with the whole extend/retract idea.. using the bucpucks and a couple of relays with a resisitor capacitor network I have a passable soft-start and retract effect. Retract is better than the Extend, but both are noticible.

I blew my MR FX Kit soundboard, though. Bleh! I measured 5V at the switch (Open) and figured I could just send 5V to the other side of the switch and turn it on when I sent 5V to the relay. It didn't like that. ;-)

Luckily they still had one at 1/2 price at the local shack.

So... now I am using 2 relays in there.... still getting tight but doable, I think.

Ummm... that's about all the update I can think of for the moment.

[Aphelion]

TroyO, it's been over a month since your last post. Have you had any luck getting that thing shining into a blade yet?

Thanks for getting your feet wet with the 10W too!

[Zero Unit]

http://forums.thecustomsabershop.com/showthread.php?t=4637

;)