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View Full Version : Troubleshooting Ultrasound v 1.0



Jonitus
10-24-2007, 08:18 AM
I am hoping someone here may have had this same issue and knows what the problems is:

I hooked an Ultrasound up last evening and was in the process of testing. When I removed the kill switch from the recharge port, I got a quick flash of the LED. When tapping the momentary switch three times, I received no sound, like you would expect to receive when entering the menu.

Checking all my connections, and even redoing my setup to eliminate the recharge port, the board still did not function. I get a quick flash of the LED and nothing else. No sound whatsoever.

Has anyone here experienced this issue? Am I dealing with a dead board? Hopefully not, because tracking down a replacement would prove very difficult now.

Novastar
10-24-2007, 10:55 AM
Hi Jon... I just wired up my Ultra board like... days ago--I too have a kill switch wired in, so... I'll let you know what I come up with...

I have heard from... vortextwist I think, and some other guy in a different thread that they believe their boards are corpses now too...

It is possible that introducing a tiny "short" (by killing only ONE lead) during the process of inserting/removing a kill switch could mess things up. On my kill switches, I "cut" both the + and the -... I'm assuming you do the same?

Jonitus
10-24-2007, 11:02 AM
Yep, I cut both legs. I wire it up like on the tutorial on Erv's site.

It's puzzling. Never had anything more than a Hasbro die on me, and now a $79 board fizzles out. This was for my saber for this weekend's halloween party. Got the costume, now no saber. Bugger!

Novastar
10-24-2007, 11:26 AM
If you're using a Li-Ion battery setup... try giving the cell some juice again.

Reason is: sometimes... when the PCB gets tripped--you must "reset" the PCB from reporting the battery voltage as 0 or something bonkers. This happens to me every now and then when I somehow introduce a short to the batteries in some fashion or another.

Granted, if you are not using Li-Ions... none of this would be relevant...

Jonitus
10-24-2007, 02:36 PM
This is a low-buck saber, so I'm using one of the NiMH packs I have in stock.

The more I read about everyone else's problems, it sure sounds like a dead board to me.

Looks like I may have to pull a 2.61 CFSC for use in this saber for the weekend. Kind of seems overkill for a saber that won't be on more than about 20 minutes the entire night.

Lord Maul
10-24-2007, 02:56 PM
Jonitus, this may seem really basic, but make sure you have the speaker wired right. The premium speakers sold here actually have polarity. When I tested my Ultraboard, it didn't have sound because the speaker leads were the wrong way.

vortextwist
10-24-2007, 05:36 PM
does it turn on at all? I know on my graflex, it takes a couple times to get into the menu. I would email ultra and see about a replacement. these things shouldn't happen. on mine I turned it on and off twice and then nothing.

LAN-ED-TUL
10-24-2007, 06:46 PM
the one i put in my heialnd synchronar vader saber worked like a champ all weekend of the con. and everyone was super impressed with it and the sounds and flicker effect.

Jay-gon Jinn
10-24-2007, 09:09 PM
I had one of my Ultrasounds DOA when I first got them. Hooked it up, put batteries in the pack, and nothing...pushed the button, nothing...tapped it three times, nothing....checked the batteries for a loose connection, nothing...replaced the board with other one, and bingo! it worked. So, I sent the dead one back to Alex, and he sent me a new one, so he may be able to get one to you as well, depending on how many he still has.

LAN-ED-TUL
10-24-2007, 10:30 PM
dontr think alex has any of the first runs left at all. if you send him, the bad one, he might be able to fix it, and if not, then youll have to wait for the 2nd run of improved boards to arrive.

Jonitus
10-25-2007, 08:27 AM
I can confirm that my Ultrasound is deader than a doornail. I am waiting on a customer's saber to arrive for some work because his Ultrasound died in his Overlord and he wants a change to a Crystal Focus board. Looks like I'm dealing with getting replacements for 2.

I've emailed Alex, but with him being sick recently and trying to rush things out for Halloween, it may be some time before he gets a chance to get back to me.

vortextwist
10-25-2007, 12:31 PM
i wander how many will die when it's all said and done?

Novastar
10-25-2007, 01:54 PM
If there are many, that would be bad and sad news indeed... :(

After all the time, work, and struggle Alex had to invest in that dork-arse company over there making the PCBs... it's a wonder that company is in business at all.

Although--when I was looking into building my Ns5 board project... you guys wouldn't BELIEVE how greedy these companies are! Two of them tried to "snowstorm" me into signing contracts that (in "hidden" jargon) basically said that they'd own everything--design, concept, drawings, things implied and NOT implied, lol. It was ridiculous. I called up one of my "contacts" up and at one point in the conversation, literally said, "Let me ask you all something. What planet do you think I was born on? What ethnicity do you think I am? I'm ITALIAN, you morons--you're not foolin' anybody. I ain't no lawyer, but I can see right through you. Change the contract or I walk away. My patent litigation attorney agrees with me, and so does an experienced friend in the industry."

He naturally said that he'd "check" with the lawyers and the contract writers. Nothing ever changed. What a bunch of weasels.

Anyhow. Sorry to de-rail a bit, but I can attest to the fact that I know some of the pain Ultra has gone through with these PCB companies. They want YOUR idea, they want to SUCTION CUP your work... and they will try to hide it in BS text designed and polished by 32 lawyers over the past 20 years.

It's sick, greedy, twisted, unfair, a shipload of cluck...

...and I don't like it. :evil:

Jonitus
10-25-2007, 02:30 PM
It is unfortunate this happened, but I ain't mad. I'm not going to be one calling for Alex's head on a platter or anything. Alex has always done right by me and I have no doubts he will again. I chalk it up to a company turning out sub-standard work for a premium price. I doubt it is a flaw in the design, just the manufacture, which is out of Alex's hands.

For now, my MR-driven Sith saber will work for the costume I sewed up over the past week, but I sure did want to showcase the Ultrasound to these folks.

vortextwist
10-25-2007, 05:12 PM
I don't blame alex either. It happens. I hooked mine up again and everythings works great. but I put a thread about it on fx sabers if anyone is interested.

Novastar
10-25-2007, 06:56 PM
I know that you guys weren't blaming Alex... I guess I just felt like venting.

Some of those PCB manufacturer guys are true weasels.

I'm lucky that (later ON in my searches) I was able to find a really awesome guy to work with... but in the end, everything was just waaaaaay too expensive for what I wanted to make... and Erv pretty much covered about 75% of what I was looking to do.

Now... as I speak with Erv regularly, CF is becoming pretty much 95% of what I had hoped Ns5 would be. So I say bravo to that, and hope it just gets better and better.

Regarding Alex--I just hope he finds some company that HELPS him instead of gives him headaches and problems. Bloody greedy weasels. Sorry to vent, but... I went through all this back in late 2006/early 2007. Sucks eggs. And I was LUCKY. I didn't pay anyone anything, as I was NEVER happy with the agreements, nor happy with what they said "was possible" and what wasn't. They lied a lot, and over-priced things a lot because I acted so green, when in reality... I was getting advice from people in the know whom I trusted.

Anyhow... it's complicated. I am hoping Ultrasound becomes a big thing as time goes by...

Ghostbat
10-25-2007, 08:05 PM
I think it kind of has to :)

There is obviously way more demand than there is supply. I have been wanting to get a good sound board as long as I knew they existed and have yet to find an opening were there were any available. I have a couple scrapped hasbro sabers but they are apparently the narstiest ones (no swing sensor even) and I am starting to think buying a couple MR's and gutting them might be my next step.

Jay-gon Jinn
10-25-2007, 09:40 PM
There is now this thread posted over at F/X-Sabers:
http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=9570.msg153223;topicseen#msg153223

It deals with why some of the boards quit working.

Novastar
10-26-2007, 12:30 AM
That is horrible to hear. SOOOOO not Alex's bad... the designers (possibly) allowed for reverse current/polarity... and/or possibly allowed for low voltage to DESTROY the board?

What devices do you know out there that allow for such disasters? I honestly cannot think of any.

And, if any of you wise guys think of one.... ( heheheh )... come on, not even the HASBRO boards would do that I believe.

Man... if I was Alex, I'd be having some "PCB design company" heads on a silver platter.

Meridian
10-26-2007, 02:18 AM
Yes electronics designers seem to like to do the minimum amount of work for the most money.

Professionally they could have added or at least recommended that little diode that will go a long way for protection but since this board was deemed for custom use I can see it being over looked easily enough since the end user most likely wasn't projected to have such problems.

Since only a handful out of all the boards made have experienced a problem because of this I wouldn't be so quick to call it a design flaw since the board when used properly does not have or develop any problems as far as the majority of testing, installing and satisfied customers has proven.

To my understanding the production company even pre-tested the boards for continuity before being shipped to Ultra as well.

I agree that in "Low tech" devices with out memory storage no there won't be low voltage issues but it's also to my understanding that much like any typical computer memory, when supplying to low a voltage to run a component any circuit causes bridging and arcing.

The Cells are protected themselves and may not directly effect it with the Ultrafires and "reverse flow" which is not what the problem that is being referred to since those batteries will cut off.
Unless a battery it's self goes bad then that is why it's recommended not to leave them in just for safety precautions.

It's more on the order of using Alkalines to power it on only 3 volts when the board requires at least 3.6 or installing the batteries backwards.

When first released it was clearly noted that people shouldn't leave the blue batteries in their sabers or use the wrong kind of battery.

The Grey batteries will cut themselves off so there shouldn't be a problem there but it's still recommended to not leave them in the saber when not
in use.

The simple fact is it's not reverse voltage protected at this point in time and judging from the development posts about it this was made clear to those buying or using it, from the beginning since it was not deemed necessary during the initial development due to the custom applications it is meant for.

Obviously additional safeguarding can and will be implemented for systems where needed to prevent any accidental improper usage etc...


If you would like some examples of on reverse voltage protected items go to any Hobby shop and buy an Electronic
Speed control and plug in the battery backward and turn it on and you'll have a fired ESC.
These Like Saber Drivers are Custom Components and are not household items required to have such.

xwingband
10-26-2007, 05:25 AM
It should have protection in the next run then... I haven't had much issue with that accept on low end electronics. Anything deemed for the public and "custom" should be idiot proofed as best possible.

Either that or DIY people stay clear of symmetric plugs. Leaving them in the hilt isn't the issue... it's the board having a passive draw and even then it would be a PCB reset or a charge. Ultra said it's no more than an MR (which has none), but obviously that not true.

Darth Morbius
10-27-2007, 03:51 AM
First and foremost, I would like to state for the record that I am not holding Alex or the board itself personally responsible for the problems that seem to be cropping up with the Ultrasound.

But in the topic for Ultrasound updates at FX-Sabers, it was stated that the boards had to go back to the manufacturer because of a defect. Which had been the reason for the last delay on release.

It's my opinion that the company that manufatured the boards did a quick fix without extensive testing like they SAID they would. Sure they may have tested each one for a few minutes before shipping them to Alex, but who's to say that it's not something that can happen later.

My meaning here is that there may be a flaw somewhere in the board that the manufacturer was not aware of, and from what was posted at FX sabers about it during the manufacture, it sounds an awful lot like what was happening before.

Jonitus, Hootini is going to send me his Overlord as you had probably read over at FX. I am going to check the board to see if it is indeed the same issue, then report to Alex on my findings. However, I have a feeling that he may have inadvertently tripped out the protection IC, or it may be a case of a bad set of Ultrafires, which I have not ruled out.

If the board is indeed borked, I will see if I can get a replacement. If I can't get my hands on one, I'll just install the one from my overlord since it's pre wired, and order another V2 Ultrasound for mine when the time comes.

I can keep you posted on this matter, and will contact hootini about it as well to see what he wants to do in the case the board is a flusher.

On a side note, with the Menu issue, it may be the switch or wiring to the board that is causing that. Before I got the new switch for the Overlord I didn't have any trouble getting into the menus. Since the new switch was installed on the saber, it became a little tougher to get into the menu until I removed the board and re-soldered the switch leads at the board. That seemed to clear up the issue.

Meridian
11-17-2007, 12:59 AM
First and foremost, I would like to state for the record that I am not holding Alex or the board itself personally responsible for the problems that seem to be cropping up with the Ultrasound.

But in the topic for Ultrasound updates at FX-Sabers, it was stated that the boards had to go back to the manufacturer because of a defect. Which had been the reason for the last delay on release.

It's my opinion that the company that manufatured the boards did a quick fix without extensive testing like they SAID they would. Sure they may have tested each one for a few minutes before shipping them to Alex, but who's to say that it's not something that can happen later.

My meaning here is that there may be a flaw somewhere in the board that the manufacturer was not aware of, and from what was posted at FX sabers about it during the manufacture, it sounds an awful lot like what was happening before.

Jonitus, Hootini is going to send me his Overlord as you had probably read over at FX. I am going to check the board to see if it is indeed the same issue, then report to Alex on my findings. However, I have a feeling that he may have inadvertently tripped out the protection IC, or it may be a case of a bad set of Ultrafires, which I have not ruled out.

If the board is indeed borked, I will see if I can get a replacement. If I can't get my hands on one, I'll just install the one from my overlord since it's pre wired, and order another V2 Ultrasound for mine when the time comes.

I can keep you posted on this matter, and will contact hootini about it as well to see what he wants to do in the case the board is a flusher.

On a side note, with the Menu issue, it may be the switch or wiring to the board that is causing that. Before I got the new switch for the Overlord I didn't have any trouble getting into the menus. Since the new switch was installed on the saber, it became a little tougher to get into the menu until I removed the board and re-soldered the switch leads at the board. That seemed to clear up the issue.


It wasn't a defect in the board but a re-programing of the sounds to remove the additional "soft hit" sound that was playing during the motion swings, that was it...

No defects or anything in the components, just software on that delay.

You and Nova are right in the overall picture that the chip MFG could have and more appropriately "should have" done a lot more to help make the development of this go a lot smoother.

I have a feeling any short coming will be getting addressed and fixed :wink:

Novastar
11-17-2007, 11:41 AM
If you would like some examples of on reverse voltage protected items go to any Hobby shop and buy an Electronic Speed control and plug in the battery backward and turn it on and you'll have a fired ESC. These Like Saber Drivers are Custom Components and are not household items required to have such.I hate to point this out, but... wiring something backwards is not the same comparison as wiring something CORRECTLY... only to have the board reverse polarity later on when batteries get low.

I personally haven't seen this occur--but it seems that is what has been suggested with the early US boards.

If all it is... is simply a matter of don't screw up + and - ... well then we're not talking about the same issue. Because THAT would be an error on the user's part, and not very excusable since Ultra provided a very clear wiring graphic labeling the parts (available to see here at TCSS).

Anyhow... I'm sure things will improve over time. Only a question of time & logistics. I still feel bad for Ultra, and also pray that he did NOT sign away the rights to the company with the paperwork early on. I've seen that happen too many times with inventors...

...people even tried to do the same with ME when I was seriously considering the Ns5 project. Screw that. I ain't signing anything away.

Meridian
11-17-2007, 12:08 PM
Yeah that's what I was getting at for the various voltage issues :wink:

I know my explanations have a tendency to be a little long winded :lol:

I don't think the concept rights are under the board maker and Ultra
held on to that end of it in order to shop it around in the future if necessary 8)

erv
11-19-2007, 09:48 AM
this is late answer to what has been said above, just adding my 2 cents about electronic designs and compromises. This has nothing to see with board dead / not dead, reliable or not, bad or good PCB maker. Just a general remark.

I perfectly understand that there is no protection diode on the ultra board. It's not a question of being cheap, greedy or a bad designer.
Consider this :
- a diode waste .7 v. It's huge, especially when you power a luxeon with a 4.8V rechargeable. It drives you to 4.1 v, just close to the limit of the forward voltage of some luxeon
- MR boards don't have a diode, except on the ones that use 6 AA, to pair 3 // 3.
- if you are not able to put + on red and - on black, that's an issue that goes further than the ultraboard design. If you are daltonian (I'm not making fun of anyone), get some help for the wiring.
- my board does not have the protection neither. People want good performances and wide power supply possibilities with constant brightness. Then you give out on protection. My board isn't fool proof.
- I've personnally burnt various kinds of hardware. It does not happen so much now, cause I've learnt from my mistakes. It's great if you can do the same. Sure it costs money, but that's exactly why you remember.
- Roland and Boss (or was it Yamaha ?) used in purpose a "reversed" polarity on their audio hardware and would not always indicate the polarity on the box. If you decide to use a non yahama/roland etc stock DC adapter, most of the time you would totally burn the unit. Okay, that's really a shame for a example but you'll get the idea.
- people have to be responsibilized when wiring a $80 or $135 board. If you make them think they can do anything with it... they will... stupidity sometimes has no limit, you have to put boundaries somewhere and should not encourage improper uses.

Erv'

Novastar
11-19-2007, 08:44 PM
All excellent points, Erv...

And for the record, Meridian--from reading some stuff on fx-sabers and this thread... I was obviously getting the wrong idea of what might happen. Here it is:

What I THOUGHT was being said:
* batteries are wired correctly for + & -
* batteries drain too far... and the board allows a reverse polarity to kill it

What I believe WAS ACTUALLY being said:
* Some idiot "mixes up" + & - wiring--ignoring the wiring guide which is CLEARLY marked... and the board dies

I just wanted to be clear on what I *THOUGHT* was being said. I'm no electronics engineer, so... what I thought was happening may not even be possible... but it sure is how I was beginning to understand it.

That being said--I've never once "mixed up" the + & - leads on any saber I've ever worked on... and I've got so little experience it's not even funny.

I *HAVE* accidentally "shorted" the batteries with a metal kill switch... but... using the Li-Ions with the PCB saved the batteries... and it was on a "resistor-only" setup, so even if I had messed up--not a big deal.

Anyhow... HAPPY THANKSGIVING in advance... :D

Ghostbat
11-19-2007, 10:08 PM
What I THOUGHT was being said:
* batteries are wired correctly for + & -
* batteries drain too far... and the board allows a reverse polarity to kill it


This is what I got as well.

Novastar
11-20-2007, 01:38 AM
Uh-oh... well, wait a second, wait a second... maybe I WASN'T being a bad listener??!?!?

Is this still an issue? Anyone? That is...

* Batteries wired correctly (+ & - correct)
* They drain too low, reverse polarity, and this kills the US board

If so... the best option is (protected) Li-Ions hands down. The PCB will not allow overdrain.

xwingband
11-20-2007, 07:40 AM
Ultra was selling his first overlord's with unprotected li-ions. I believe they had an IC up with the board... but I don't know.

For li-ions I don't take chances. I buy cells with built in protection so that I don't have to worry about the cells and it's hardly more complicated than working with Ni-MH.