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xwingband
06-19-2007, 01:40 PM
This related to Erv's board but I thought it could warrant a seperate topic.

I started playing with the four banks on the saber. I initially just tested by changing a few sounds... conlusion: I suck at this. :?

It sounds different on the saber and the oddest things are in the saber but not in the files I hear on the computer. I'm using Sound Forge so I'm pretty sure I can do everything. I just need tips.

So please share. I guess next I'll probably record new bank sounds and find a boot I like.

Anyone have a good force lightning sound? I also think I want my boot sound to be the x-wing flyby sound on the older games.

Hasid Lafre
06-19-2007, 02:21 PM
Ive alwase been a fan of the FL when palpy is going at luke right before vader tosses him.

Novastar
06-19-2007, 04:46 PM
Well, X... despite what people might think--creating sound files is actually a lot more difficult (and more of an art) than one might believe. There are many considerations when creating sound, and in this case, we need to think about the application and the delivery method. Some important things to remember:

1. ZERO CROSSING POINT. There is a lot of explanation to be made here, but just think to fade in and fade out the first and last (let's say) 0.05 seconds of each sound. I could extrapolate more, but it will get complicated.

2. <1DB IS BEST. You want to be careful on how "loud" your sounds are, depending on the speaker and also on the quality of the sound itself. Don't go higher than 1dB. In fact, I recommend staying under it as much as possible--say around 0.8dB.

3. CLEAN "ATTACK" AND FADE. If your sound is "suddenly" too harsh, or drops off too quickly, your speaker might have some trouble adjusting. Especially since it is small. Go easy on it if possible. I had trouble with my dark side sounds in this way, but they are passable on a good speaker. My light side ones are better.

4. NON-REPETITIVE MIX OF "HUM" SOUND. This is tough to do, but you really need to get creative with this. I recommend Erv's software to mix all of your sounds (on his website)... but you can do it yourself just as easily.

5. ORIGINAL FILE VS. .RAW FORMAT. Start with a very high quality original (say 16 bit, 44,100Hz @ 160kbps PCM .wav) and then convert to the .raw format that Erv needs for the SD card.

6. SOUND DYNAMICS. If the sound doesn't really match the soundwaves that the speaker is most able to play... the sound won't be so great. This is again... really hard to get "right".

I'm still learning myself--and am by no means a professional, but yes... it takes A LOT of work--even when mixing Ben Burtt's sounds with that of your own, or simply altering, stretching, pitch shifting, etc. It's hard.

xwingband
06-19-2007, 05:02 PM
The most odd thing so far has been the hum... I just altered the pitch uniformly across the hum and power off/on.

But there is a mysterious knocking in the hum. It's not present when I listen to it through heapphones on my computer, but in the saber it does. :?

I liked a blaster deflect I made... but the force lightning one is hard so far. I can't even find a decent one. It's a lot like the lockup so maybe I should make a darkside bank with the shimmer effect off. Then keep the push effect but act like the lockup is "lightning".

I'm going to keep trying. I gave up for today... I'll probably search and record for sounds now.

This will take a while. I want an expressly sith one, ancient and growly. A "jedi" then the rest is up in the air.

Novastar
06-19-2007, 07:24 PM
X to the Z... it is possible that you will not hear a break in a looping sound via a computer software because it may automatically "play" with the sound.

You *must* create a "zero-crossing" setup in the loop, and the sound pitch and general tone must be able to match up well. Also, you want to loop a sound that is fairly "long". Three seconds is too short, while five or more will work. Granted, if you go too far, it doesn't always work (at least on BT v1.2)... I tried an 8 or 9 second loop and it never worked--the CF v1.2 simply never loaded properly.

I'm working on re-making my darkside sounds... I didn't like them all that much, but wanted SOMEthing for C4 that was not like the Nova font.

Madcow
06-19-2007, 09:15 PM
One thing I thought about doing is making a saber speaker setup that actually hooks up to my computer's sound output. I would probably use a cheap little amp - but you could try wiring the speaker straight to a 1/8" audio plug - just make sure it's a stereo plug (not mono).
This way - the sound plays from the computer through a saber speaker & resonance chamber- the same as my real saber.

erv
06-20-2007, 12:54 AM
good points you guys are exchanging here.
I've added that on my forum, you'll find a nice link for a good sound archive (chhhht, don't tell it too loud)
http://www.plecterlabs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=106

zero crossing : capital point. Generally I start the sound with an upgoing period of sound and stop it with the downside of the waveform. Listen the sound in loop in the computer to make sure the zero crossing is correct. Even with that you might get a very very little knock at the end of the sound when looping, I'd say it's maybe more easy to hear it on V2 cause the 16 bits are so clear that it reveals more details in the sound. Nothing about a big "knocking". Xwing, could you detail the sound, this knocking thing you hear ? is it at the end of the sound, when looping. If it sounds like a big "burst" or "spike", it might be a zero crossing problem. Don't forget as well that it's not because the waveform is properly linked at the loop point that you won't get a burst : spectrums have to be "compatible" before the beginning and the end. Look at the waveform at the end and begining of the sound, and look for hi freq patterns. Often, removing one or 2 periods of sound at the end make a smoother transition and you have no more pop or click.

Sound forge : definitly THE tool you need. The only one so far that can generate the proper RAW format (16 bits, unsigned, little endian) for CF V2 (I know, it sucks that it's the only program to do that).

long sound problem : a problem of v1. Improved SD card management and compatibility. Works much better with V2, and it's going even better with 2.1 and 2.5. Should not be a problem anymore.

Sounding different in the saber ? for sure. Nothing compared between the speaker I'm providing and earphones or hifi speakers (even cheap ones). But the new speaker will help a lot. I've almost received them (they are waiting for me to pick them up at the post office). The spectrum that can be played by the current speaker is not so wide. Frequencies loss, different timbre (and lack of bass)

Think about NORMALIZING the sounds before mixing them. Like Novastar said, not too loud, even if for clash sounds I like to go to the max, or even with a bit of saturation, it gives some crunch to the sound.

Novastar is right... it's hard... mixing a pop song is incredibly hard, especially if you want it to sound good on a MP3 player + earphone as well as on a cheap car stereo. Not everyone has NS10 speakers at home...
Even now, once the selection of sound is done, it takes me 1 to 2 hours to make a sound font.
And yes, you must use the sound mixing utility. Use an attenuation (Att. numbox) of .7 this works well in general. This parameter is an automatic gain control of the hum to lower it a bit (of the factor/ratio of Att.) so that the played sound fx express itself at a good volume and without saturation (reminder : mixing 2 sounds = adding each sample. If both samples > half the dynamic => clipping). This helps very much having a loud hum that fades a bit during sound Fx then comes back.
I did not used it so properly on the "bank1" I'm providing in the last archive, but the result is really nice with novastar + darkstar soundfonts (I used .7 of attenuation for them).

Xwing, thanks for starting a subject about that, it's might help people and convince them to start making their own soundfont !
Erv'

Novastar
06-20-2007, 08:50 PM
Great to hear you almost have the new speakers, Erv... be sure to send me a few, heheh! Glad to help connect you and the Lux Trinity with them...

As to the proper RAW format (16 bits, unsigned, little endian) for CF V2... Goldwave can indeed provide this proper format. I used it for v1.2 as well.

Also, you do not HAVE to use Erv's mixing program to do the sounds... but if you have little to no experience working with sounds, you bloody heck as well BETTER! Otherwise your sounds will likely be pretty lousy.

I don't know how Erv does only 1 or 2 hours....!!! Me, I *SLAVE* over the sound fonts. I want them to be perfect. It's worth the hassle, as once I get them right... they can be used without worry for a long time.

Finally, you will sometimes simply have to re-mix your sounds. This is just how it is, given the application of how Erv's board works. If everyone's sound files came out of professional studio, unchanged and unaltered... and the sounds were SPECIFICALLY made for CF... then it would be no big deal...

But alas... it's a tough job. Novastar will take care of you guys (for at least 3 sound fonts), and Erv has your back for some as well obviously. I haven't tried Jonitus' or the Shinobi ones, but I'll try listening to them soon enough...

987654321a
06-20-2007, 10:39 PM
i know a link to where you can find a buttload of sounds from double sabers to singles. and so on. i just have to find it ill post it tomorow tho.

Novastar
06-21-2007, 12:58 AM
Countdown... I use sounds from Ben Burtt all the time in the fonts. Using "pro" sounds is not the point... getting things to sound just right and at the same time have the desired pitch, length and tonal quality (along with the zero-crossing point concern)... IS the point!

There are throngs of sounds available on theforce.net via the fanfilm databases and so forth. Tons more can be found via Jedi Academy, Outcast, KOTOR, etc. etc.

In the end--taking stock sounds with absolutely no modification... is relatively "easy"... but doesn't always produce the sound font you want given our application.

erv
06-21-2007, 03:29 AM
good points. The link I've provided on my forum (see post above) is about a famous game archive. Note that the .pak ou .d3Z or such funny extension are often .zip files.... make a copy of them, rename them, and ohhhh magic, you have a zip archive with tons of sounds in it. I got my holocron sound out of that, for instance (the current boot sound of the default sound package of CF V2).
Using stock sounds from a game archive without mod : not always a good idea, I agree. Example : one of the force sound I'm providing. Too much bass in it. Good for home/computer speakers or headphones. Not good for small speakers. Mixed or EQued with a higher spectrum, it will sound much better.

Jonitus
06-21-2007, 06:19 AM
Creating a sound font is fun, but I found it to me a major hassle. There were so many problems on my first attempt. With Erv's help, they got sorted out and I think my sound font is a good one, but I know I will not be making more sound fonts in the future. I'll leave that to other people's capable hands.

Marsupial
06-21-2007, 12:38 PM
I can't wait to be done with my move, so I can get one of the V2.5 and start working on my soundfonts.

I have a few ideas I'd like to explore.

Hasid Lafre
06-21-2007, 01:26 PM
I want chicken sounds and cow moo sounds.

Marsupial
06-21-2007, 01:50 PM
That's part of the idea I have for one of my banks... I want to be able to have looney tunes FX for jokes while trooping :)

Novastar
06-21-2007, 03:38 PM
For those interested, I'll have the following available (with the gracious Erv hosting the fonts, naturally!):

1. Novastar "good guy" saber font. (100% complete)

As you know, it has a Yoda-ish power on sound, a higher pitched hum, and robust clash and swing sounds. Lockup is unique, and could even be used for Force Lightning if you so chose.

2. Blackstar "bad guy" saber font. (95% complete)

It's basically complete, Erv can release when he likes. Power on is the snap-hiss style, as well as power off. Much deeper hum, and vader-style swings and clashes. I'm editing now to remove the pops and clicks I found (even WITH the zero-crossing technique).

3. Steel Sword-style font! (90% complete)

You have yourself a metal-on-metal sword prop now! You could go so far as to disconnect your LED altogether if you so chose, or perhaps even make the LED current 0 or close to zero (I think). "Hum" sound will be the whistle of wind in the style of the Cliffs of Insanity of Princess Bride? :) I couldn't think of any other way to make it useful without leaving it totally blank... ;)

4. Ancient saber sound font. (60% complete)

Whether this ends up being the font I make personally for Corbin, or simply just a font I'd make available as a "special", it's sounding very cool so far. Hopefully I should be complete with this soon. I *really* like how it is sounding. Totally unique, and not a single Ben Burtt sound was used. In fact, all sounds are SO far altered, I can safely say that this is a font that has no "licensing" worries or concerns. Purely made by myself, all I ask is that if you like it... just let me know you use it and what you enjoy most about it!

All of these sound fonts *basically* require one of the new high-powered miniature speakers that I've been talking about all this time. Erv, Tim and Alex should already have them---or at least very soon.

Enjoy!

xwingband
06-21-2007, 04:58 PM
That ancient one sounds like the style I'm going for. My saber is no where near that design, but it's what I like in sounds.

This topic just reminds me that I need to work on it... :? I've been reading a SW book all day so I guess that counts.

I haven't bothered to look, but I guess configs would be interesting to discuss with the fonts too. I pictured an ancient saber having a more unstable shimmer.

Novastar
06-21-2007, 06:04 PM
UPDATE: All 3 of the sound fonts are now done (Novastar + Blackstar, Steel Sword and Ancient... :)

I agree X-wing... it would be something great to update the flicker and other properties to more effectively "sell" the font change.

I've been having trouble getting a good idea of how to work with the config.txt file the best, but I'm sure others can come up with that. Erv also will know his configuration patterns best.

I also have the Ancient "on/off" sounds as if the saber is... sort of "sputtering"--barely able to make it on or off correctly. Those sounds were inspired by Corbin telling me about the Malius saber some time ago... or, some other saber--but in any case, he mentioned how he thought it would be cool if a saber didn't quite "function correctly"... more character for the saber, so-to-speak!

I'll send them all to Erv posthaste. How soon you all see them is up to Erv posting them. If you want to hear them sooner, e-mail me (not PM) and I can send them to you.

If anyone has the heart to show extra thanks and wants to send like $2 to my paypal account for these, that would be awesome. But no, this is by no means required!!

xwingband
06-21-2007, 09:28 PM
I love messing with the light configs. It's suprising the changes your eye can pick up. Same with the sounds.

I have to consider pitch shifting too. You don't know what you are missing. :P Neatest thing EVER!

Erv, 16 bit them for sure. I think even with four banks I may want a second SD card. :D Maybe a novelty card. Looney toons, steel, etc...

Novastar
06-22-2007, 01:31 AM
Oh don't get me wrong... I've tweaked the light-controlling parameters. That's why the saber runs for so long, not to mention I try for a longer "ramp up & down" for my darkside saber.

There is (naturally) only so much that can be done on v1.2. I don't know about v2.x.