Star Wars: Legacy Revealed

[Darth_Constantine]

Alright for those of you like myself who live 3,000 miles from Celebration IV. If you pay any attention to your TV Guide Channel (for those of you who have some sort of Cable or sattelite, be it Comcast, Direct TV, Dish, w/e). The History Channel had an awesome special on Star Wars this past monday. It went through everything from all of the Greek Mythology Lucas steals for Star Wars, to Vader's Nazi Stormtrooper style helmet. I'm not going to go in too deep but the one thing I overall agreed with the most was the ideal that Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader are pretty much perfectly portraying Lucifer from The Bible. For those of you who may not know, in the Christian Religion, Lucifer (aka Satan) was the greatest of the angels and the most beautiful, until he decided that he could be the most powerful. As a result, God punished him along with 1/3 of all of the angels (that was the number that were loyal to Lucifer). If you can follow what I'm saying and if you agree with it then you can easily see how Anakin Skywalker aka The Chosen One, and Lucifer are pretty much the same. However the one part of that that I disagree with is that Darth Vader is no where as close to as evil as Satan. That's my take from it, but there was lots of other stuff. so for people that saw it, feel free to discuss what you liked or disliked and throw in your two cents!

[vortextwist]

I like it alot my self but I think people tend to make connections with stuff that didn't even cross ones mind. Lucas modeled the vader helmet and mask after the kabooki (sp) outfits, not nessesarilly the SS. like lucas was thinking : I'll make this lightsaber and excalibur mean the same thing" I don't think so.

[987654321a]

i saw that show, it was pretty nice, especially the technology of sw one. i for one know that he is just like lucifer. i mean he kills at random whom he chooses. he is a reasonable man only if you apeal to his likes. just my .02

[TimeRender]

Well I'm glad I wasn't the only one who noticed the mistake about the German helmets. McQuarrie's inspiration was the samurai helmet, which is even more obvious when you look at the early Vader and Boba Fett concept art. Still, there is a strong resemblance to the nazi helmets and that probably triggers a much larger emotional response from the audience. A big point of the show was how the audience brings their own experiences into the story and relates characters and events to things that are important in their own lives. George may not have intended all of the observations made in the Legacy Revealed special, but he definitely intended to create a movie in which the audience would see these similarities. The fact that we interpret Lightsabers to be Excalibur, Vader's hemlet to be Nazi or Vader himself to be Satan basically proves that everything Campbell has ever said about the universal myth is absolutely true. This was a wonderful StarWars special.

[Jay-gon Jinn]

I thought I had missed it as it came on at 8:00 p.m. e.d.t., but as always, they re-ran it half the night, so I set the vcr and taped both of the shows. I still haven't had time to watch them entirely, but what I did see was pretty good.

[Barmic Rin]

Vader's helmet was based on Samurai armor, the nazis based their helmets on them too hoping it would invoke a warrior-like spirit during battle.

I've always seen Vader as more of Cronus, (Zeus' father from greek mythology).
In the DG book 'the power of myth', they say that whereas cronus ate his children literally, Vader 'devours' his with psychological injuries until his sole surviving son (zeus) betters him, ushering in a new age.

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Power-DK-Publishing/dp/0789455919

I'm hoping they show this programme over here, sounds pretty good.

[Ravage179]

beat me to it barmic! that book was a must for my collection

[Barmic Rin]

It's a serious addition to any collection for anyone who's wondered where the inspiration for the Saga came from.
Took me long enough to track down a copy, but worth it!
How's the site coming Rav? Been meaning to ask you for a while, just haven't had a chance.

[Delmustator]

I have it DVR'd and can copy to DVD if needed...

Shoot me an email if you really want it on disk. I'll get to it when I get a chance.

delmustatorlemaster@nc.rr.com

[Lord Maul]

that show was a disappointment to me :?
i feel like all they did was relate SW to the Bible

[TimeRender]

That's odd, they really only talked about biblical connections for just a few minutes. Did you watch the whole thing Maul?

[Darth_Constantine]

They only really talked about Anakin's relation to Lucifer and they mentioned
Moses for about 3 seconds when talking about someone. The thing I don't get is that if the prosthetics for vader would technically make him stronger, I don't understand why he would be so stationary when fighting. If Anakin's arm that was cut off was stronger with the prosthetic, then it makes sense for him to be more agile being more of a machine. But then I guess if you look at the battle droids they never jumped at all.

Up until Episode 3 Vader was definitely not the most evil character ever. After watching him slice up little boys and little girls, I viewed him as a lesser evil than Michael Jackson. But when he starts dealing in absolutes. OH MY GOSH, *headslap* he's definitely the most evil character ever now!!!!11!!11'!!!1!1one!!! Did you see how he p0wnz3d3d that lil' kid? OMG. ;p

[Lord Maul]

That's odd, they really only talked about biblical connections for just a few minutes. Did you watch the whole thing Maul?

i watched 1 hour and 45 minutes of it :wink:

[pockets]

vader and luke both fought very stationary because of the weight and clumsiness of the lightsaber stand-ins they used. and the technical difficulty of rotoscoping long duels with lots of spinning and movement without computers.

from a behind the scenes standpoint it makes sense

[TimeRender]

Strength and agility are two very different things anyway. That's why Olympic weight lifters don't often double as Olympic pole vaulters. On a slightly different subject, is there anyone else here who actually preferred the duels in the original trilogy? I thought the stuff they did in the new trilogy was far too Hollywood. No real swordsmen actually fight like that, and even experienced fight choreographers can only pull off those moves after weeks of rehearsal. And don't bother giving me the whole "but Jedi are faster and more agile and can see what is coming even before it happens" argument because personally I don't like any of the junk either.

[37H4N]

It was an interesting show, I enjoyed it.

I see how anakin is like Satan, but I view Sidious as more the Satan type, I mean come on look at him! :lol:

But I did enjoy how much of starwars relates to the bible, very cool.

[TimeRender]

Yeah, I think I agree with you on that Ryu. I guess it is because I have always viewed Satan as being a liar and manipulator rather than an overtly evil force.

[Darth_Constantine]

Hey, personally I liked the duels in the old movies a ton better. Nothing against nick gillard but don't watch the new movies with me unless you want to know the 6 different places anakin should've killed dooku in episode 2, the dozen and a half times Darth Maul should've won in episode 1. I prefer the old movie fights just because all the moves are completely realistic. I like the style of fighting, it's a lot more skilled and closer to the Samurai movies i've seen. for instance, The scene where Tom Cruise finally gets it in "The Last Samurai" it may not be backflips and lots of whirling and twirling, but it's a lot more elegant and graceful. For instance, Ben Kenobi, had amazing technique, Obi-Wan in Episode 3 did too... does anyone remember the specific part of episode 3 where anakin and obi-wan do vertical 8's at each other and miss every single time, then bring their sabers around and finally hit? It's SOOO Hollywood. Did anything like that happen in Episode V or VI? HECK NO, but hey, Vader did throw his lightsaber which made no sense from an intelligence standpoint. The one downside to episode VI is that at the end of Luke vs. Vader, when Luke does all those vertical strikes at the end. It made absolutely no sense at all. Although since he's not trying to kill him, I guess you could say he was trying to cut off vader's arm in order to avoid having to kill him.

[Mor-El Kesav]

Strength and agility are two very different things anyway. That's why Olympic weight lifters don't often double as Olympic pole vaulters. On a slightly different subject, is there anyone else here who actually preferred the duels in the original trilogy? I thought the stuff they did in the new trilogy was far too Hollywood. No real swordsmen actually fight like that, and even experienced fight choreographers can only pull off those moves after weeks of rehearsal. And don't bother giving me the whole "but Jedi are faster and more agile and can see what is coming even before it happens" argument because personally I don't like any of the junk either.

Well to cover your points:

1. " No real swordsmen actually fight like that," Well "real" swordsman use swords made of steel that have an edge and at least 2 flat surfaces. Single edged swords will have 3 flat surfaces, duel edged swords will have 2 flat surfaces. Furthermore, as someone who owns and practices with several "real" swords, they are heavy. Lightsabers are all cutting surfaces along the blade and they are very lightweight in comparison. "Real" swords require a great deal of force to cut through anything while lightsabers require only a feather like touch to cut through just about any surface. So naturally the techniques are going to differ. Lightsaber duelists are going to move faster and use moves that would never work in conventional swordfighting.

2. "And don't bother giving me the whole "but Jedi are faster and more agile and can see what is coming even before it happens" argument because personally I don't like any of the junk either" Perhaps you don't like any of the Star Wars universe. Many of the moves the Jedi use, in the prequels and the original triology, require a Jedi to see what is happening before it happens. Blaster bolt deflection is the prime example. Yes some of the spins and stuff are put in for dramatic effect, in both triologies. Some of the spins are inherent to the style of fighting a particular Jedi is using.

3. In the original trilogy you had older, crippled men fighting cyborgs and cyborgs fighting half trained kids. Again you are going to see a difference in style.

So to answer your question, no I don't prefer the fighting style in the original trilogy. It is too conventional, too earthlink, too linked to using a steel sword vs a lightsaber. The prequel trilogy showed Jedi in their prime utilizing different styles of fighting. I found it much more in sync with the Star Wars universe than the fighting style used in the original trilogy.

[TimeRender]

Your points are sound Mor-El, from the point of view of someone who who is more open to the expanded universe and to the prequel trilogy. Admittedly I am not. Where you see a crippled old man, a cyborg, and a half-trained kid, I see a crippled old man and two fully trained and capable swordsmen. (I do admit that the duel between Vader and Kenobi was weak but then again neither of them really had their hearts in it. Kenobi was offering himself up and they were both just sort of chatting.) I don't think anyone who saw the original trilogy before the release of the prequels had any sense at all that either Vader or Luke would be so seemingly benign when compared to earlier Jedi.

I agree entirely that lightsabers are not real weapons and as such they do not have to behave like them. A lightsaber blade has 360 degrees of cutting surface, while real swords have only up to two edges and a point. Still, from my point of view anyway, the linear nature of any swinging motion renders this a moot point. While a lightsaber blade may be able to cut from any angle, it's only going to cut where it meets a target at the end of a two dimensional arc, just like a conventional sword. As for the weight of a sword, once again you are right to say that lightsabers and swords don't have to be identical. Real life swords that are the same general size as a lightsaber can weigh as much as 3 pounds, while a massless blade and metal hilt can weigh a fraction of that. I admit that this could allow a Jedi to move his weapon more quickly, and with their Jedi reflexes and ability to sense the future this can allow them to move much more quickly than common swordsmen. Even in the original trilogy they allow for this, as you pointed out with the blaster deflection and the training remote. I concede these points to you entirely.

HOWEVER!

There is still the issue of which of these two styles actually LOOKS better. For me, the fancy theatrics and lightning fast pace of the prequel duels takes me out of the movie too much. It just seems too jarring. I'm finding it difficult to describe just how it makes me feel while watching the films, but I can think of a good example. Remember in Pulp Fiction when Uma Thurman tells Travolta not to be a square, and she draws a cartoon square in mid-air? Seeing the prequel lightsaber duels makes me feel like I have suddenly stopped watching real people and started watching cartoons. My willful suspension of disbelief is simply not strong enough to get around it. The more realistic duels in the original trilogy kept me believing in what I was seeing. The other very positive effect created by the slower paced swordfights is that it allows the camera and the audience to better see the emotions and facial expressions of the actors. (Ok, so only Luke...) All the jumping around and flipping and spinning in the prequels killed the mood. I just couldn't find any sense of drama when watching the equivalent of Star Wars meets Cirque Du Soleil.

Ultimately it is a matter of taste and there is no correct point of view. I'm really just curious to see if anyone else has a strong opinion about it one way or the other. Then again perhaps I have already derailed this topic too much...

[pockets]

Yodas dueling in the prequels REALLY killed the mood of the movie for me, bouncing around like a ping pong ball with a lightsaber.

[Delmustator]

I converted the DVD into MPEG-4 format (viewable via Quicktime). The file is 376MB. So all I need to do now is find someplace to distribute it.

I'm concerned that it may be copywritten by the History Channel or Lucasfilms.

Any ideas?

Megashares upload time is too slow (121 hours? PLEASE...). The fastest upload speed I could find was 56Kbs.

[GFORCE13]

I enjoyed it overall, I was just sick to death of the Trailer for this since they showed it at least 8 times during the C4 Movie Marathon and I can't even tell you how many more times during the next 5 Days. :wink: