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View Full Version : Resonance -- let's get this hammered out!



Novastar
05-23-2007, 06:36 PM
Ok folks... I know very little about resonance other than the following:

1. Space in front of your speaker is just as important as space behind it.

2. There is a certain amount of cavity that is "ideal" given any speaker setup. Although that is tough to find, and what we're talking about.

Does anyone out there have some really good data on how to go about creating a very "tuned" resonance cavity? I know Erv has hinted toward it in his .pdf, but naturally this is a detailed subject.

I can safely say that resonance plays a *GIGANTOR* role in making an identical speaker in saber X... sound far, far better than saber Y.

It's true that a better speaker = a better speaker... but you can also have:

* Average speaker + GREAT setup = FANTASTIC sound
vs.
* Fantastic spaker + POOR setup = Average sound

Thoughts? Best to reply here if you really know what the heck is going on with sound. I've already done a bunch of experimental "amateur" tests that simply are via my ears... using an apples to apples comparison of the same speaker in like 5 differing resonance setups.

xwingband
05-23-2007, 07:11 PM
I'm not so big on the back of the speaker. In my experience it's not nearly as important as the business end of the speaker.

The most important thing is a seal with the chamber. I've used everything from a liberal application of glue to o-rings.

Otherwise a general 1" or so has fine to me. Taking more than that has been overkill. It starts to trade lowering the pitch for volume, almost begins to muffle the clarity.

I don't think we can get it to any science... you're not going to calculate the pipe length and correlate it with the pitch that it will equal (and thus resonate best). If anyone did... I'd pat them on the back and tell them to get a life. :D

I'd like to start messing with speakers, but like a lot of things (switches?) there are too many options and then they go to waste sitting in my box 'o stuff. :roll:

vortextwist
05-23-2007, 07:26 PM
I agree with x to about the air behind is not as important as the ability to get it flowing out. All of the sound comes from the front of the speakers. It's just like my bass cab, the pulsing of the speaker is what makes the sound we hear. Sure you need a little behind but only so the speaker can move freely.

jjshumpert
05-23-2007, 08:44 PM
the rule of thumb with speaker design is to have a closed air space for the speaker to draw from and a larger ported space for the sound to escape from whatever its mounted in. having room on the basket side of the speaker in our applications is not an issue when it comes down to it since the speaker is so small it needs less that 1/16th of an inch cubic space for projection. take my mr luke conversions, i mount the driver in a plastic tube that is just large enough for the sound module and relay. behind the module towards the pommel is the recharge pack, and the pommel is sealed off with fiberglass making it imposible to actually draw air from that end of the hilt. i then mount the speaker to the top of the module which places it just behind the first blackened section of the grooved forward grip. i make 6 equilateral cuts per ring along this entire section and the sound for the saber is done. once everything is hooked up and you fire the saber it is loud enough that you cant hear a stock luke sitting beside my setup, which i would say is a great improvement considering the luke is one of their louder hilts.

kinda off subject but how bout sending over one of these uber speakers for me to play around with? sounds like a great coil and i have some over the top hilts i want to try it in...

Novastar
05-23-2007, 10:37 PM
Thanks guys... I'll be reviewing all this in detail to be sure of what everyone is saying and see about how it differs (or is similar) to what I did for the Flange v3. I tried to give it as much resonance as possible without overdoing it and losing good sound.

Jonitus
05-23-2007, 10:44 PM
X can tell me to get a life, but the simple (math) way to do it would be to find the average frequency of the most common sound (in this case, the hum), then calculate the 1/4 wave distance to come up with ideal resonance chamber length. In theory, it should give an approximate 7dB increase. That may not sound significant, but a 3dB increase is an effective doubling of sound pressure levels, so 7dB is pretty significant in fact.

Novastar
05-23-2007, 10:52 PM
HAH! Jon... that is *exactly* the kind of idea I'm looking for in this thread. Suh-weet.

Thanks! I'll see what else everyone is coming up with and maybe we'll all have a way to find a simple (yet still somewhat mathematical) way to take sound from being good to uber-excellent if the conditions are correct.

To me, this makes a VERY big difference in the experience of a saber, especially if you'd like to impress someone with how this whole technology works.

Sabers without sound... just aren't impressive to anyone outside the field. They look at it like "it's just a light--what's the big deal". lol

Hasid Lafre
05-24-2007, 01:23 AM
Yes but the majority of people out there dont care if its got sound.

erv
05-24-2007, 02:35 AM
I don't agree with that... the sound is like half of the experience (ok, it's MY opinion). Can't play with a silent saber anymore...

Jonitus, good point... didn't you you've dealt with impedancy adaptation.
I'm going to measure the resonance point of the speakers I'm using (the usual one coming with CF and the new one novastar and I have tested). Then I'll calculate the distance maximizing the sound to get a 1/4 of wave adaptation. I'm pretty sure it will match the cavity of my last saber (I'll post pics and videos very soon) cause it's SO LOUD !!!
Erv'



Yes but the majority of people out there dont care if its got sound.

Jonitus
05-24-2007, 03:41 AM
The wonderful thing about calculating the 1/4 wave distance is that you are putting a quantitative spin on what has been a largely qualitative process. Yes, when you play with the chamber length and get it loud enough and sounding good enough, you are doing essentially the same thing as running the calculation.

It would be nice to have a chart or something that reads like:

For sound board "x" with speaker size "y", chamber length should be "z"

erv
05-24-2007, 03:49 AM
you can't have an accurate chart cause the wavelength (and therefore the lamda/4) relies on the resonnant freq of the speaker, which is not only related to its diameter. But we could at least make a chart for specific speakers that we know about.
Erv'

xwingband
05-24-2007, 06:58 AM
lol, Jonitus... I guess I should word it better. What you are talking about is good. I think a good ear can just find it with experimentation, but that would help to have a chart.

What I was referring too would be someone overthinking it and trying to design certain pitches, say the average of the hum sound, and making there saber to resonate with it... that's overboard. :P

Jonitus
05-24-2007, 07:40 AM
lol, Jonitus... I guess I should word it better. What you are talking about is good. I think a good ear can just find it with experimentation, but that would help to have a chart.

What I was referring too would be someone overthinking it and trying to design certain pitches, say the average of the hum sound, and making there saber to resonate with it... that's overboard. :P

...totally

I thought that going only so far as charting what size chamber is needed for certain speakers for certain boards. It might be handy to determine if you want a Hasbro speaker or a Radio Shack speaker or one of Novastar's nifty speakers or whatnot for whatever type of board you happen to run.

If I can get use of the equipment, since I work as a safety professional by day, I can borrow a sound level meter and start taking measurement of some of this stuff.

If someone wants to get carried away and tune their chamber for a particular frequency shift, they are welcome to it. Not gonna be me.

supertrogdor
05-24-2007, 08:06 AM
I'll throw in my 2bits here. Having competed (and brought home trophies every time) in some amature stereo competitions in my formidable youth, and specializing in box building, i can tell you that speakers have what are called thiele small parameters.(for more details you can look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiele/Small) they have a good general explanation) They are basically measurements on how the speaker moves and are used to calculate what kind of box you should build for each speaker based on those parameters. I have a few programs that calculate that for me, but there is one problem i see. Speakers this small will still be affected by those numbers, but getting them for a speaker small enough to fit into a saber would be another story, and are not likely available to john q public.
On a more workable note, the sound will protrude just as much from the front of a speaker as from the back, so it doesnt really matter which way you mount the kind of speakers we would use here.(even though most of you will not believe that try the test i reccomend here in a second mounting the speaker both ways and prove me wrong if you can) Having what everyone here referrs to as a resonance chamber is mostly a way of putting a sealed chamber of air behind the speaker for it to work against. The increased air pressure makes the speaker move more concicely in its intended path of travel along the magnetic pole. This is most likely going to need to be small in porportion to the speaker, i would guess less than an inch an a half in most cases, but you will likely find that making sure it is sealed airtight will make the biggest difference. I would get a length of pvc pipe that will both fit your speaker and the inside of your saber and find a plug for the opposite end. Mount your speaker and adjust your plugs propinquity to the speaker, then taking your apples to apples test, stop when you think it sounds best, but make sure to adjust around the sweet spot both in and out to verify your test. Adding a dampening material to the inside may also help you out here. Try a variety of things: cotton ball(s), crushed styrofoam peanuts, lining your chamber with cloth... that sort of thing as it can help produce a more balanced sound. I could go on, but that should be enough for most of you to be getting on with. Let me know if i can answer any further questions.
Cheers

erv
05-24-2007, 09:29 AM
this is very useful info, I like it ! Surprisingly, the last saber I'm building is for the first time really loud, and I know it's partly due to the speaker itself, since the resonnant chamber is quite the same as on the previous one I did, so I'll try to make accurate measurements and simulation to know how to reproduce that for future sabers !
I'm going to study that wikipedia article, thanks for posting this !
Erv'

Jonitus
05-24-2007, 10:27 AM
In the two MHS sabers I bult for my GF and I, I used a length of 1.25" white plastic sink tube for the resonance chamber. I had about half an inch behind the speaker and about an inch and a half in front of. The back part was stuffed with cotton from cotton balls and the whole thing was sealed with silicone. In effect, I made a sealed enclosure similar to what supertrogdor was talking about. It worked and the sabers were loud.

This may not work for everyone, since space is often a resource in short supply in our hilts.

Yes, to truly get a louder speaker, you have to have something behind the speaker to push against. Most of us will just free-air the speaker and let the hilt act as the rear resonance, but give something else a try.

Novastar
09-01-2008, 04:58 PM
This = good thread to bump.

So... *SLAM*. *Thunk*. *Bonk*.

Donnovan Sunrider
09-01-2008, 05:39 PM
Thanks for the bump Nova.
I'll keep this in mind when I get mine put together. I'd think a sealed capsule with the speaker at one end wouldn't be too hard to do. I just gotta seal off where the wires come out.

Goodman
01-06-2009, 03:35 PM
I personally hate necroposting, but I think this thread *really* deserves being brought back to the front. Sound is half the fun of a lightsaber, IMHO, so certainly there is more information to be learned and contributed on this topic of maximizing the volume for our saber application.

Have any of the original posters completed any tests? If not, for what it's worth I'll be conducting a comparison between an MR speaker, a TCSS, and a 3W speaker. I'll be basing the comparisons on the directions given throughout this thread back in 2007, using different types of chamber materials, backing materials, sealing methods, and front/rear spacing.

I'll be the first to admit I don't have much experience with box building, etc, so if anyone has any more tips to contribute, or types of sound setups they'd like to see me add in my tests, please chime in. I'll probably start the tests in two weeks.

mmafighter
01-06-2009, 05:42 PM
Here is what I did... I bought a relatively low end Ipod speaker system, and gutted an R2 unit fishtank, and put the system inside the R2 unit. Not realizing, that the sound was going to be really hollow, I had to redo the whole entire thing. I strated out with eggcrate on the walls of the R2, but since this is a saber discussion, we cant do that, lol.... I ALSO put stirofoam directly on the speakers themselves, and foam eggcrate BEHIND the speakers. Hope this helps, becuae what I essentially did was get rid of the hollow sound, and added more distortion throughout the R2 unit... good luck Nova!

sithlordfaust
01-06-2009, 08:48 PM
lol, Jonitus... I guess I should word it better. What you are talking about is good. I think a good ear can just find it with experimentation, but that would help to have a chart.

What I was referring too would be someone overthinking it and trying to design certain pitches, say the average of the hum sound, and making there saber to resonate with it... that's overboard. :P

you think thats overboard .. hah. you should look into how some solid wood archtop guitar builders Tap Tune the sound board as they're carving to get the perfect pitch, but they end up with a $10,000+ guitar to sell

mmafighter
01-07-2009, 11:47 AM
Thats what Martin and Stonebridge does, sithlordfaust.... good insight!

Novastar
01-07-2009, 03:15 PM
Have any of the original posters completed any tests?To a certain extent--yes. I had two different styles of "iPod-ish" speakers if you will. One has been in the darkside Flange III (red LED) for some time, and... since it's a 45mm jobby and it can SOLELY fit in the end cap (1.5" sink tube w/ screw cap)... there is literally no extra room to add resonance in the pommel direction...

However... it's PLENTY loud and crisp and clear... and it DOES have plenty of resonance back "up the saber, in the hilt" since I have all the little "cheese grater holes"--for the speaker/indicator LEDs--in that hilt.

An example of it when it's "close to the camera speaker":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOFqzLO-_rc

It sounds stellar, and blows away everything in earshot. And God help you if you're in a small room... I mean I can't even hear myself think, it's just insane and actually pretty darn ANNOYING when you get right down to it. It drowns out the TV... background noise... my g/f asking me questions... LOL! ... it can drown out pretty much anything. But I just don't even care, I mean... God I hate turning it on in a small room! It's... LOUD. Obnoxiously so. :rolleyes: I dunno. It might actually be TOO much. I didn't think I'd ever say that, but whatever... mine ears doth bleed...

Alright... then the next test was a different iPod-ish speaker that would go in the "lightside" Flange III (green LED). This one couldn't use a 45mm for several reasons, but... whatever--the important thing you need to know is... this speaker was more like 30mm or something--I'm not sure. But it's a lot smaller in diameter than the 45, and actually about 0.5" LONGER. Heavy as heck too.

So then it's like... well... "is this going to be as loud and 'comparative' as the 45mm one in the darkside Flange III?"... and the answer is... YES--to a certain extent...

This speaker has the ability to have a bit more resonance "out the pommel" than the other one... and the resonance "up the saber" is similar to that of the darkside one.

They are almost equivalent in volume output and overall feel, with the 45mm winning by a little bit. A LITTLE bit. What I discovered was... I don't think it's all THAT important to go for a 45mm iPod-ish speaker over a 30mm-ish one... since the overall result is extremely close.

That being said--the 30mm-ish one is LONGER than the 45mm one.

Finally... it DID take some tweaks with making the speaker sit "just so" to get the optimum sound quality + resonance, and... I wasn't able to divine any kind of formulaic way for it.

Though I'm not a Cornell/Harvard sound graduate with honors or something. :) Maybe they can figure things out otherwise, but... I say we have only these general ideas:

* Speaker needs to sit tightly... sit STILL!
* Resonance cavity that is around or = to the speaker's OD to be both "in front" and "in back" of the speaker... is ideal
* Those cavities should be at least ~1" or so... and sometimes more is better... and sometimes a little less! But certainly not < 0.125" or something stupid.
* "iPod-ish" speakers can be an exception since... well... they have built-in resonance cavities (to a certain extent). I mean just look at them. :)
* Little "cheese grater" or "speaker grille" holes all about the hilt both "in front" and "in back" of the speaker will allow the sound to escape in a more pleasing and dynamic way... vs. just having an open pommel speaker grille or whatever you want to call it.
* Varying the size of the "hilt holes" is probably a good idea, seeing how sound behaves (waves = peaks, troughs, amplitude, etc.).
* Having SOLELY a pommel speaker grille will cause the sound to be VERY uni-directional (duh) and also be very ear-piercing (duh!).
* That being said--try having NO holes for sound to escape (not even in the pommel) and you see how assy it will sound. Or should I say... it's like an indefinite "mute" setting, hahahahahah
* Two speakers right next to one another serve almost NO purpose... they would at LEAST have to be something like 12" from one another. At LEAST. Probably more.

Uh... and as Forrest Gump might say... "Huh... well thaht's all ah have to say about that..."


If not, for what it's worth I'll be conducting a comparison between an MR speaker, a TCSS, and a 3W speaker. I'll be basing the comparisons on the directions given throughout this thread back in 2007, using different types of chamber materials, backing materials, sealing methods, and front/rear spacing.That would be pretty cool. God knows, I would never want to do something so involved... sound drives me BONKERS as it is. There's just so much possible variance and so many different sounds, environments and all sorts of stuff... it's like... sometimes I get so sick of sound I just wanna pull my nuts right off and start chewing on them... (!!!!!! :?: :?: :confused: !!)

hahahah, just kidding... but seriously... sometimes working with sound will just make ya go crazy, hahhahaha

Count Malik
01-07-2009, 06:20 PM
I know what you mean nova! lol, but what you stated was just plain brutal! LOL!:mrgreen: I put about 1" of resonance in my nibiru CF saber! and its pretty lound. (loud enough anyways.)

Anavrin
01-13-2009, 01:13 PM
To a certain extent--yes. I had two different styles of "iPod-ish" speakers if you will.

Do you happen to have links or item names since I'm looking to go the home brew method–the speaker in TCSS is awesome, but my hilt design just won't fit that *head desk*. If not, it's back to the drawing board (though I've an innovative idea that /might/ work given precision, and a bit of utter madness. Which I'm okay with. But I'm also cheap and madness in custom CNC Milling is expensive *dies*). Ah, heck–just give me hope I'll find a decent speaker with a diameter between .5 and .75 inches XD

Novastar
01-20-2009, 01:59 AM
I waited a bit to respond to this for several reasons:

* the last post is way off-topic and I was hoping others would say something since I just posted a MOUNTAIN of 411 on resonance experiences...

* TCSS speaker = 28mm... and... the ones I specifically state in the monstrous post refer to 30mm, 36mm and 45mm speakers, so... I SERIOUSLY doubt that your design will better accommodate LARGER speakers over the 28mm ones. That's just common sense...

* You "have an innovative idea that /might/ work given precision, and a bit of utter madness".

Uh... and as Forrest Gump might say... "Huh... well thaht's all ah have to say about that..."

kazei maru
01-25-2009, 01:25 PM
There is a lot of variables involved with "tuning" a resonance chamber. The material used, surrounding airspace & materials not to mention positioning of the speaker. Then you have to decide which frequency will give the best sound & then you need to tune for it. Acoustic testing equipment would be ideal but there is another way. Try getting online or talking with a car stereo speaker enclosure fabricator. The reputable ones usually have lots of hands on experience with calculations for given speaker sizes etc. & remember that theses guys build systems that are judged with some fairly complex equipment at audio competitions. It's worth a shot!


Ok folks... I know very little about resonance other than the following:

1. Space in front of your speaker is just as important as space behind it.

2. There is a certain amount of cavity that is "ideal" given any speaker setup. Although that is tough to find, and what we're talking about.

Does anyone out there have some really good data on how to go about creating a very "tuned" resonance cavity? I know Erv has hinted toward it in his .pdf, but naturally this is a detailed subject.

I can safely say that resonance plays a *GIGANTOR* role in making an identical speaker in saber X... sound far, far better than saber Y.

It's true that a better speaker = a better speaker... but you can also have:

* Average speaker + GREAT setup = FANTASTIC sound
vs.
* Fantastic spaker + POOR setup = Average sound

Thoughts? Best to reply here if you really know what the heck is going on with sound. I've already done a bunch of experimental "amateur" tests that simply are via my ears... using an apples to apples comparison of the same speaker in like 5 differing resonance setups.

Novastar
01-25-2009, 10:19 PM
Car guys will (generally) not be of much help. The dynamic range and pure size of the speakers (and the resonance chambers that can be made available) in cars are several, several, several times greater in superiority to what can be had or used in something as small of form and specific in diameter as sabers.

Also--as to tuning for frequency--you're going to be (again, generally) out of luck due to the super small space... and also, even if you COULD tune with space... that space is usually better used to fill the saber with electronics, batteries, etc. Although I suppose someone with a 20" hilt could use 5" of space for resonance. Or something to that effect.

Materials... now THAT'S definitely a good one to muck around with... although in the end--most hilts are metal, and no matter what resonance chamber is used... the metal hilt still plays its role.

Calibration equipment would be *INCREDIBLE*... ... but... not only would it be doubtful to even get ahold of (where do ya wanna start looking?)--it seems like it'd be like shooting for 100% perfection when getting things ~90% would be "just as well".

It kind of reminds me of the whole lumens / LED driving thing. If you get 90% of the lumens... it really doesn't matter when it's compared to the one @ 100%. You'll never be able to detect the difference.

FenderBender
01-25-2009, 10:33 PM
Eh, I figure if it sounds good when Im done, then great. Every saber that I've done with MR boards has been at elast twice as loud and a TON deeper than the original MR saber could have hoped to sound. I cant wait to play with our CF's though. THAT's going to get special treatment.

Novastar
01-26-2009, 05:57 AM
I'm curious if you usually used the same MR speaker/battery pack with most of your MR board setups?

Only reason I ask is simply because--yup, I've found that messing with the MRs can allow for creative resonance as well. In fact... that's how I started to pay a LOT more attention to resonance in general. It's a long story, but--I noticed a significant difference from a "Mace" and a "Luke ROTJ". To be certain, I swapped the packs. The "good/better sound" didn't change... so I knew it was no longer the speaker.

Anyhow--CERTAINLY the MRs have a giant failure on resonance. But I will say... the speakers were pretty good (for the time they were made). The speakers on the MRs were probably the best of their kind back in... well whatever year it was... 2002? 2003?? Whatever.

Eandori
01-26-2009, 11:58 AM
I have not read through this thread yet, so I apologize in advance if I'm commenting on topics already completely worked out... but here's my kneejerk response anyways :)

I have found that speaker chamber size, capacity, and back-venting to be extremely important. Back when I made my first saber (proto1 with clash flash) I spent much time playing with the speaker chamber size and placement. I could hear big changes in overall tone.

Volume also was effected greatly by these changes. I was building my first few sabers with no back speaker venting. Just venting at the bottom of my sabers. Then, when I was working on Proto3B I started noticing how LOUD the saber was when testing it mostly disconnected. I had the bottom of the saber together but the top of the hilt was off and the middle tube was just open with some wires coming out. The volume was much more intense.

So on Proto 3B I drilled some venting holes in the middle of the hilt, above the battery. The difference was immense, it went from being much quieter then my Proto3A saber, to much louder. Additionally, since I now had holes in the hilt I went ahead and put some blink LED's in there to add to the effect. It worked out really well.

Long story short, I do think speaker chamber size, and shape are very important. Additionally, I think back-venting can also lead to really good results in some setups. It sure did for me.

My final comment on the subject... I would personally avoid giving out solid rules for building your speaker solution in your saber. You might do everything the same as another guy, but have one minor physical change that just alters the entire effect. I can easily see something working VERY WELL for one saber, and making it worse in another. It's a case by case basis so any discussion should probably revolve around understanding basics of sound... then each saber smith figures out how it applies to EACH saber they are working on.

Cheers,

Goodman
01-26-2009, 12:06 PM
Thanks Eandori, good point along with Novastar's; that there are many variables in our type of application (size, limited space, etc) that determine optimal sound.

Would you mind posting specs/measurements on your particular setups?

FenderBender
01-26-2009, 12:51 PM
I'm curious if you usually used the same MR speaker/battery pack with most of your MR board setups?

Only reason I ask is simply because--yup, I've found that messing with the MRs can allow for creative resonance as well. In fact... that's how I started to pay a LOT more attention to resonance in general. It's a long story, but--I noticed a significant difference from a "Mace" and a "Luke ROTJ". To be certain, I swapped the packs. The "good/better sound" didn't change... so I knew it was no longer the speaker.

Anyhow--CERTAINLY the MRs have a giant failure on resonance. But I will say... the speakers were pretty good (for the time they were made). The speakers on the MRs were probably the best of their kind back in... well whatever year it was... 2002? 2003?? Whatever.


Nah, I make my own battery/speaker packs similar to what Tim sells, only the Speaker mount isnt solid, its open on the back. I sometimes stuff the back of the speaker with foam, sometimes not. The depth of the mount will vary depending on how much hilt room I have left.

Eandori
01-26-2009, 02:04 PM
Would you mind posting specs/measurements on your particular setups?
For the last saber which really sounded great, here's what I did...

This pommel: http://www.thecustomsabershop.com/MPS-Pommel-style-3-v2-P90.aspx
This center section:http://www.thecustomsabershop.com/4-Double-female-threaded-connector--P123.aspx
This speaker:http://www.thecustomsabershop.com/Premium-Speaker--P77.aspx
The older speaker mount (grey ring, delicate, felt like rough ceramic but it was plastic)
This pommel cap (similar...): http://www.thecustomsabershop.com/MPS-Insert-style-6-P263.aspx
This recharge port (I cut a groove in the grey ring for the wires to get by into the hilt): http://www.thecustomsabershop.com/21mm-Power-Jack-P37.aspx
I drilled an array of holes in a diamond pattern just below the upper threads on the 4" hilt. With the 8.4v 7xAAA battery pack I use there was a space gap above the battery but below the threads. So the holes and blink LED's went there.

CF with an 8.4v battery is VERY loud when turned up all the way. High enough to distort and burn out the speaker in fact. You must turn it down. It worked great! VERY Loud.

I liked the tone in my Proto1 saber but I cannot give you any info on that one because the speaker chamber was custom made out of film canisters, plastic caps and glue. But It was toned right and sounded great. The setup I described for Proto3B was louder... but I didn't like the tone as much. Personal Preference.

Novastar
01-26-2009, 05:55 PM
...on Proto 3B I drilled some venting holes in the middle of the hilt, above the battery. The difference was immense, it went from being much quieter then my Proto3A saber, to much louder. Additionally, since I now had holes in the hilt I went ahead and put some blink LED's in there to add to the effect. It worked out really well.I remember when we were talking about this Edwin... heheh, the meet up at "The Nut Tree" in Vacaville, hahahah... :) But yep, that is PRECISELY what I did for the Flange III sabers back in mid-2007 (which people could see on the videos), and it certainly made a big difference.

And although I'm not ready to say that it's a "unilateral" thing for all... I *WILL* say that it makes a lot of sense--the more places the soundwaves have to bounce all over the place and THEN escape after reverberating off a bunch of surfaces, then out holes... the better. This is why nearly every speaker FRAME you see out there (not the physical unit itself necessarily)... has "cheese grater" style holes. Whether big or small, varying in size or not... they have them.

Just look at your TV (or speakers with your TV)... your computer speakers... your car stereo's spk setup... your headphones (may have to look under the puffy pads, heheh)... etc.

It's just a "physics of sound" thing. :) Sure, everyone's saber is different, but (as Edwin knows)... the GENERAL properties of sound and resonance remain the same. Just like... there's no getting around it: you'll HAVE to provide a decent amount of voltage and current to get a bright LED. There is no escaping it.

Another way of thinking: you can't give a Luxeon III 100mA and "configure it like a pro" and magically produce a similar result to the same Lux III @ 1000mA. That's just the way it is. Now sure, you can vary things like blade length, mirror tips, diffusion, optics, etc. in small ways... but ultimately--as I said... there is no escaping it: you could never yield the same brightness as the Lux III @ 1000mA.

Well... without being TOTALLY unreasonable and just covering up the LED with black tape, hahahahha. :)

Eandori
01-26-2009, 06:53 PM
Sounds like I'm in full agreement with you here. What works for one saber setup, might not work for another. But there are always uniform laws of physics that apply. The trick is seeing which effects are playing the biggest role in YOUR setup. That can be hard to identify and a really good reason to have a thread like this.

You know me... I would probably start by going over basics of soundwaves and the physics around those. Then I would apply it to simple models of saber hilts. Then I would start changing properties of those hilts and see how it effects the expected outcome. All the while... doing RL tests to verify theory is true. Eventually landing on a few "rules of thumb" that saber-smiths could use.

Ug... that sounds exciting but... a lot of work :)

Darth Siggious
02-13-2009, 05:52 PM
I know it may seem crazy at first, but I put a thin piece of Auralex in the pommel (MPS style 3v2) of my saber and it took away the trebles enough that I got a satisfactory deep Sith sounding saber out of the US2.0 (which IMO is very trebly). It was quick and cheap, so I went with it to try it. Though it honestly sounds best with my hand cupped over the bottom of the MPS insert. Nice and low, but obviously very low on the volume too. :(

I figured that I'd be dampening the metal tinniness of the aluminum tube that the 1W speaker is sitting in (which does not sound like a good idea, nor sound good to begin with, I mean, a 1W speaker in a metal tube?).

I agree that technology presents the biggest hindrance to good resonance in these sabers, especially for me because of how money the Sith sabers sound in the films on my home theater setup, you guys KNOW what I'm talking about!! For real!! And you can't mimic those sounds too well with these little speakers and their outputs. The sound frequencies are too high to get that much needed bass...but that's me and my love of everything Sith talkin'.:)

Novastar
02-17-2009, 12:16 AM
It's not crazy at all (if you read all of this thread)... :)

Further, I can at least say... well... don't count out those little micro-speakers quite yet. Some of them pack a bigger punch than most of you might be aware of...

Case in point would be the little "iPod" style speakers you can find out there. They have a fairly nice dynamic range. And, the speakers TCSS has in the store are very well-suited to saber needs... these also have a good dynamic range.

But it is true (as a display of physics and sound) that 98% of super large speakers with tons of power at their command (read: home stereo system, nice computer speakers, nice CD player/stereo/radio) can easily "out punch" a couple of battery cells, limited resonance room (read: "one or two inches in a saber hilt") and sizes that must be 45mm or less. More likely 36mm or less. That will always be the case.

Still. When I hear my own Flange III sabers... they're obnoxiously loud for what they are... and it takes a crowded room with tons of noise to even DULL the sounds emanating from them... :)

ziongraffix
03-27-2009, 06:42 PM
So maybe a little off topic but... If I wanted to increase the resonance in my MR Vader would I just try to free up a bit more space in front of, and seal the back of the speaker? Could I swap the speaker out w/ a CSS speaker just by cutting and re soldering?

Rhyen Skytracker
03-27-2009, 08:03 PM
Wow, there is alot of useful info in this thread. I just wanted to thank all of you for this info, it has helped me alot.

Novastar
05-19-2009, 04:14 AM
So maybe a little off topic but... If I wanted to increase the resonance in my MR Vader would I just try to free up a bit more space in front of, and seal the back of the speaker? Could I swap the speaker out w/ a CSS speaker just by cutting and re soldering?Oops. Sorry Zion, I missed this question somehow. Been busy.

Freeing up space in both directions of the speaker SHOULD give more resonance, yes... but you'd also want some holes in the hilt to allow that sound to escape (in my opinion). Although it's not a very exact science in terms of just typing (in words) what to do. There are SO many factors in creating great sound. As this thread mentions.

Swapping an MR speaker for a TCSS speaker or whatever speaker is easy in THEORY but not so easy in practice. Why. Well, the MR style sabers have that "all-in-one" battery + speaker pack, and depending on the pack you have, it can be either impossible or relatively easy to free the speaker from the plastic frame and replace it.

Jonitus
05-29-2009, 12:37 PM
Yet another factor we must consider is the material the resonance chamber is constructed of. Certain materials have different, undesireable reflective properties.

White PVC sinktube material is generally pleasant as a material. I don't find too many issues with it.

Clear acrylic (sourced from small paint containers I buy at Hobby Lobby and are the perfect size to surround a 28mm speaker) are quite harshly reflective and must be toned down with something. Even a layer of masking tape on the inside of the chamber walls will tone down the reflectivity and keep the sounds from being quite so distorted.

Aluminum tubing is also very harsh. In my experiments, a small layer of very thin foam (like the white sheet foam you find in packaging for modular furniture and so forth) is sufficient to tone down the reflections.

It would appear to be a trend. The more rigid the material you use for a resonance chamber = the more reflective it will be and possibly introduce wave form distortion and poor sound.

FYI

Jay-gon Jinn
05-29-2009, 01:37 PM
I think I posted this somewhere before, but I've been using pvc 3/4" couplers to make resonance chambers from...the ones from my local hardware store have a slight indentation, or step in the ends that the speakers fit right into making it very easy to glue the speaker to the coupler. I usually cut them in half and get two for the price of one. I've also used straight 1" pvc electrical conduit cut into a 1" long piece and glued the speaker into one end....it really makes the saber sound deeper and removes the metallic, tinny sound that leaving a bare speaker in an aluminum tube makes.

Novastar
05-29-2009, 04:11 PM
Ooooooohhhh... good ones, Jay... Jon...!!!! I completely forgot to bring up anything like that! Great posts...

Crystal Chambers
10-19-2009, 07:02 AM
Since a lot of speaker cabinets and instruments are made of wood...seems like something worth trying. It would be so easy to fit it to your hilt and speaker size. Has anyone tryed this? If not I might.

Jedi-Loreen
10-19-2009, 09:42 AM
Um, what are you talking about? Making a lightsaber out of wood? :confused:

Onli-Won Kanomi
10-19-2009, 11:39 AM
I've wondered about a wood cone resonance chamber instead of the more often used closed and open cylinder resonance chambers made of PVC etc...as you say wood makes nice 'warm' resonance in acoustic instruments so I'm wondering if a wood cone might give some nice warm bass tone especially to the hum...not sure what kind of wood would sound more pleasant though; a more flexible thin softwood that might vibrate with the sound or a more rigid hardwood that would just reflect it? Any musician/acoustic types here know?

Sunrider
10-19-2009, 01:57 PM
One thing i have noticed looking at large & small speakers are long tubes or ports stuffed with loose cotton like material. I think the idea is to reduce reflections with the loose stuff & to create a longer path for the exaust sp. to escape. The longer exaust for the rear of the speaker seems to enhance lower frequencies but it's a fine balance of backpressures. Also a way to reduce unwanted high freq reflections is something like a stocking or the foam type stuff they use over microphone.

I think in my next project i will try to 1 layer stocking material the speaker out the bottom of the saber & line the walls of the hilt with a thin layer of felt. With large crystal chamber holes in the middle of the hilt i hope to recreate what i have found in small speaker systems like desktop stuff.

SR

Crystal Chambers
10-19-2009, 02:40 PM
Um, what are you talking about? Making a lightsaber out of wood? :confused:

No...lol... just the resonance chamber. "It would be so easy to fit it to your hilt"

Off hand I know rosewood is warmer then maple.

Alof of drummer pack their bassdrums with pillows and such to mute/reduce the ringing of brighter tones.

Sunrider
10-20-2009, 08:01 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker_enclosure

Some information to help adapting a hilt to improve sound output.

A speaker PN that looks promising CMS0281KLX.

$tarkiller
10-20-2009, 08:42 AM
No...lol... just the resonance chamber. "It would be so easy to fit it to your hilt"

Off hand I know rosewood is warmer then maple.

Alof of drummer pack their bassdrums with pillows and such to mute/reduce the ringing of brighter tones.

Actually, the reason they pack their bass drums, is to reduce friction of the pedal hammer on the drum iself, therefore making a more solid thump when used.

Crystal Chambers
10-20-2009, 09:13 AM
Yes to get rid of the bright tone of the hammer hitting the skin and to cut out the snare ringing.

Novastar
10-21-2009, 04:24 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker_enclosure
Some information to help adapting a hilt to improve sound output. Sunrider, yup... wikipedia is a great resource. :) Although, it's quite true that most of that really only applies in a more "substantial" way to fairly larger speakers. For smaller speakers... it's... pretty tough to do anything of the sort in a DIY sense... AND have it be effective.


A speaker PN that looks promising CMS0281KLX.Ah, yes--this is essentially the "iPod" style speaker with a mounting bracket.

It's not bad, as... I've tried a few of these. In fact, one that is 45mm in diameter is in my Flange III "darkside" saber right now. Good stuff... not super-uber in some respects, but good stuff just the same!

I don't know much about the 28mm ones... although there is another I am using in my Flange III "lightside" saber right now. It was more like 32mm(?) though? I don't remember... it's been awhile--those speakers have been in the Flange III sabers since like... oh... I wanna say December of 2008.

At any rate--the silver "cone plate" or whatever... and the nice rubbery ring between the speaker and frame... are pretty nice, considering you'd rarely find the time & efforts to DIY such things.

Good post... sound is complicated... and takes a lot of work to "get just right"! :)

Crystal Chambers
10-21-2009, 06:42 AM
hmm..I've seen a resonance chamber here in front of the speaker for the pommel, and for reverse sound I've seen one with the chamber behind the speaker.

Any relation here? I would think that having the chamber in front of the speaker no matter what location in the hilt would be a priority, and maybe some chamber in behind in addition, but this raises a new question to resonance in relation to speaker location.

Amptrooper
10-21-2009, 08:40 AM
Here is what I did in my Mandalorian saber. I has sound coming from the pommel end and from the crystal chamber that is in the choke. The crystal holder is vented for the sound.
I went to lows and found pvc that fit in my hilt and was just about the right diameter for my speaker. I honed it out si that my speaker could fit half way down then stop. I used a plastic washer (kinda soft but ridged enough to not move while dueling) to put on the side that I honed out. The tube is about, oh, an 1" 1/2 maybe a bit more. BTW this is a tcss speaker. I then used plastic plugs that you can also get at Lowes drilled a hole in them and put them in the ends of the tube. Then I got two small cheap 99 cent funnels and cut the tips off. I used clear epoxy and attached the funnel ends to the holes with the larger side facing out. Oh, you have to make a small hole in one of the caps for your wires. This whole set up is about 2 1/2" long. So that really is not that bad if you have the room for some massive sound! I am going to make another one soon and I will show my work this time. I did this because I was not happy with using the hilt as the resonance chamber. It was loud but the sound quality was lacking and I thought I could get it even louder. It is louder and the sound quality is much better. I got the idea from the Bose systems. I am very happy with it. The forward sound is just as loud as the pommel sound. So it sounds like the whole saber is making the sound. Fun weekend project! :D

Sunrider
10-21-2009, 10:58 AM
Nice amptrooper that is what i am going to try too. By reducing reflections, extending & porting the chamber at the rear of the speaker theoretically you can double the low freq sound quality. I think round interior edges & absorbtion material are key.:-)

Darth Securis
11-16-2009, 12:41 PM
I have been curious about this as well. I got a broken MR FX Anakin that I am converting and the speaker is blown. I replaced it with the TCSS speaker but it isn't as loud as the stock MR speaker. The speaker sold here is deeper (thicker) than the stock speaker so that might be why.

Anyways, it go me thinking about the resonance requirements for the two different speakers. I know with the proper chamber the TCSS speaker can be louder. I have been wondering how much room is ideal though and thinking about how to figure this out.

I came up with a little something that would be helpful for testing different setups on the same or different speakers. I made a sketch so you all would understand more. Basically, the rear sealed air space is separately adjustable from the front resonance chamber which is also adjustable. So you can try different combos of rear space and front space in the same rig without spending too much time changing configuration. Once you figure out what works for the speaker you have then you build the permanent enclosure. It would probable be better to make it out of clear tubing so you can measure the chambers easier. You could even go as far as putting inserts on the 3rd tube with different size holes instead of having a sealed rear chamber. Here it is:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee38/__darkside__/Misc%20images/adjustableresonancechamber.jpg

Jonitus
11-16-2009, 01:04 PM
MRFX sabers have a bad design in terms of sound. The speakers are tacked onto the end of battery packs, and there's no resonance at all. The back is blocked, and there's never any space to the front to serve as a chamber. Even when you replace a crummy MR speaker with one of the nice ones TCSS sells, you don't get very good results.

If you use a MRFX as a shell to do a custom install with soundboard and your own battery pack or whatever, you can free up a lot of space to make a good resonance chamber and get some good sound out of it.

Darth Securis
11-16-2009, 01:07 PM
Yeah, I wasn't going to go into a lot of details on that cause this isn't the right location for it but that is pretty much what I will be doing.

Novastar
11-16-2009, 04:01 PM
Everyone's moving on the right track with this... awesome! :)

The only issue that I'VE really found is... and, well, as if it'll be a surprise to anyone: free space = ARRRARRRRGGGGHHHH

In sabers, as many of us know--"real estate" becomes precious. Especially when you're an idiot like myself, and always looking to fit 15 pounds of potatoes into the 5 pound bag (quote stolen from Anthony Davidson "Necrolosis")... heheheh :) :D

Seriously though--I like tight choke points (for the forward hand), and generally short length hilts (10.5" to 11.5" maximum)... and of course in the Flange III sabers I stuff tons of extra LEDs... two 18650 Li-Ions... a vibration motor... two switches... CF... a recharge port... and of course, the speaker.

So... the point? IT'S BLOODY HARD TO HAVE 2" FORWARD AND BACKWARD OF THE SPEAKER that are just plain... well... "empty", heheh! :)

I try my best to allow a lot of gaps, where wiring is simply running through the areas... but... it gets stuffed just the same, lol.

I imagine ideal resonance could come from sabers >10" or ones using less "beefy" battery solutions. But I don't know... *I* find it darn TOUGH to do this resonance thing. Even though I'm an advocate for it...

Anyone else have that issue? Like... once it's down to brass tacks, your speaker has barely 0.5" of "resonance room"?? :P

Jonitus
11-16-2009, 04:11 PM
I was experimenting with something one the last saber I put together. Nothing new or ground-breaking, but it was a departure for me and the way I typically do things. I put the speaker with a very small (0.5") resonance chamber directly behind the heatsink. The soundboard fits directly behind that, that the battery holder behind that. Even though the saber is fairly packed to the gills, there's enough room for air to travel and I get a full, robust, loud sound from the rear of the saber.

Novastar
11-17-2009, 12:59 AM
I think I know about the saber you mean... the thin-necked one, right? That makes sense, since the sound can travel all the way down the length of the entire saber... creating a NICE amount of resonance.

Personally, I steer clear of putting speakers near the heatsink because of the heat, but... if it's far enough away, it should be ok.

Additionally--for the sabers I'd WANT to put the speaker up there in--it's PACKED up there (for me). The sound would get blocked pretty badly.

But that is AWESOME if you basically have yourself a 10" or so resonance chamber. That really is the ideal for the mostpart.

lenco12
09-22-2010, 05:52 PM
Thanks guys... I'll be reviewing all this in detail to be sure of what everyone is saying and see about how it differs (or is similar) to what I did for the Flange v3. I tried to give it as much resonance as possible without overdoing it and losing good sound.

X can tell me to get a life, but the simple (math) way to do it would be to find the average frequency of the most common sound (in this case, the hum), then calculate the 1/4 wave distance to come up with ideal resonance chamber length. In theory, it should give an approximate 7dB increase. That may not sound significant, but a 3dB increase is an effective doubling of sound pressure levels, so 7dB is pretty significant in fact.

RevengeoftheSeth
09-22-2010, 06:16 PM
X can tell me to get a life, but the simple (math) way to do it would be to find the average frequency of the most common sound (in this case, the hum), then calculate the 1/4 wave distance to come up with ideal resonance chamber length. In theory, it should give an approximate 7dB increase. That may not sound significant, but a 3dB increase is an effective doubling of sound pressure levels, so 7dB is pretty significant in fact.

http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii347/caddwg2000/fried_brain.gif

Sunrider
09-22-2010, 08:45 PM
X can tell me to get a life, but the simple (math) way to do it would be to find the average frequency of the most common sound (in this case, the hum), then calculate the 1/4 wave distance to come up with ideal resonance chamber length. In theory, it should give an approximate 7dB increase. That may not sound significant, but a 3dB increase is an effective doubling of sound pressure levels, so 7dB is pretty significant in fact.

Unfortunately there is nothing simple about the subject. Besides, quarter wave lengths at those frequencies are a few feet.

Detailed info.
http://forums.thecustomsabershop.com/showthread.php?t=11537

Novastar
09-28-2010, 04:26 AM
Sunrider is (pretty much as always)... right. :)

I don't know who "X" is, either. But either way... unfortunately sound is (shall I emphasize this again) quite dynamic... especially when it comes to "lightsaber" style sounds, and it's pretty much tough as nails to come up with some kind of simplistic & formulaic "one size resonates all" solution.

Not that it wouldn't be welcomed if it existed! :cool:

That all being said... some of the tests that Sunrider did with a decibel meter and some experiments have given us some good headway, for sure!!

Still... sometimes yer kinda "stuck" with a certain solution for a speaker setup. I mean... I know *I* don't have much of ANY kind of room in my (for example) Flange III & IV sabers. So, at this point, I am limited to trying new, and/or different speakers of varying sizes within the limitations of the ID of the area I'm trying to place said speakers.

FORTUNATELY... I have the ability (in those particular sabers) to use speakers even up to 44mm or 45mm (!!!)... thing is... they aren't always ideal--even despite their size...

...response frequencies play a factor...
...changing speaker size alters the resonance (of course)...
...battery power/draw plays a factor...
...in this case, these CFs have the volume POT... which plays a factor into the amount of distortion I can "bear"(?) or quality I am willing to sac for a bit more volume...
...changing the volume alters the way the soundwaves behave as WELL...

...so... yeah. Basically... sound is super super dynamic.

Uh... unless you just have like a flat, non-changing "tone" playing. Like say on the emergency broadcast things? You know? Which would be annoying for one thing, and not very useful in a saber, lol.