10 watt RGB... (BUSTED!!!)

[Dregan]

So, (and understand, I'm gauging interest here) how interested would someone who like a challenge be in a 3.3watt (per color) RGB that totals ~10 watts inder full power?

I still need to research optics and whatnot, but I think I've found something here...

[Jay-gon Jinn]

I'd say you're a bit late, it's already being done:
http://www.thecustomsabershop.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1897&highlight=trilux

[Dregan]

I'm not talking about a Tri-Lux, I'm referring to a single emitter, 10 Watt RGB I found today.

[acerocket]

I'd be interested. Naturally I am biased towards the Tri-Lux, but I don't want to stop anybody from doing there own research. The problem with most single unit RGB LEDs is that, unless they drive each die seperately, you will max out performance on one of the colors but limit the other two. There is one RGB LED I know of where the three die are driven seperately (the LED has 6 seperate solder pads) but it is only a 3 x 1 watt unit. The nice thing about the tri-lux is that you can individually drive each LED. I myself would love to see some specs on these. I know there are 10 and 20 watt single color LEDs out there but they are quite the power hogs. If you would care to share the specs, but want to keep it private, you could PM me. I only ask out of curiosity and would not pass on the info.

[Dregan]

I had hoped you would see this, Ace. There's a distinct lack of optics for this - think you might be able to machine something to hold some on? Maybe even put these in your Tri-Lux... That's be sweet!

By slightly changing the angle of your optics in the Tri-Lux, you could do a polymorphic multi-chromatic blade - like a lava lamp in your blade! Need a controller chip, though... hmmm....

[Jay-gon Jinn]

Ahh, my mistake!

[acerocket]

That's one very interesting LED there.

A few things I noticed after viewing the PDF. Nine seperate die in three groups of three with a seperate positive terminal for each series of three die with a common negative terminal for all nine die arranged in a single interconnected matrix. It looks like you have the option of running a single color as either 3, 6, or 9 die at a time since they are all connected. My guess is that the RGB will be three seperate sets of three die not connected so they can be individually driven. Taking a single green color LED for example, the forward voltage is 11V and the forward voltage would be 1.05A. Assume you hook to the 9 die terminal, that means you are going to be giving each led series 3.67V at 1.05A and each individual die will be getting 3.67V at 350mA. 3.67X.35= 1.29 and 1.29X9=11.61 watts total. That is how they get the 10 watt LED. So you basically have 9 seperate 1 watt LEDs in that array. The advertised luminous flux for the green is only 330 lumens so by extension, each die is putting out 55 lumens. The standard Luxeon 1 LED puts out about 53 lumens at similar power requirements. The nice thing about this LED is that you have the equivalant of nine Luxeon I LEDs on a single base. But there comes another problem. that LED is BIG - almost 1.5" x 1.75" and optics are going to big also. The website says optics are available so you want to give them a call. I doubt very seriously it would ever work in a Tri-Lux setup because of the size, but it may have some very interesting uses none the less. You say they are about 70 bucks. That's a steep price considering you can get nine Lux I for 30 bucks total. But the single unit packaging is very attractive. For a saber I don't see much use unless you really want to go for it, but I can see some other possibilities where having these could be interesting.

[Novastar]

DANG I love reading Ace's posts. :)

I don't always UNDERSTAND everything... but it sure helps me learn a bit more everyday regarding voltage, resistance, current and their relations...

Still looking forward (voltage?) to the new Tri-Lux and other possibilities!!! :)

[elrond.406]

DANG I love reading Ace's posts. :)

I don't always UNDERSTAND everything... but it sure helps me learn a bit more everyday regarding voltage, resistance, current and their relations...

:? Too long and complicated... :P

[Novastar]

Nope... information was just right for me!

Basic math isn't all that complex... it's the relation between the numbers that gets me sometimes.

For a long while, I wondered WHY Lumileds didn't have a "5-watt" set for the "dark side" colors (red, red-o, amber, etc.)... well, that is because the Lux IIIs... often referred to as "3-watters" are just that... well, in red, red-o...

It comes down to number crunching sometimes.

I also learned from Ace that LEDs don't really need any more than their forward voltage to be effective. That is to say, giving an LED 6 volts when it only REQUIRES 2.95... is wasteful. This is especially important when running "direct drive" (a.k.a. resistor only). LEDs are all about CURRENT... which is relational to voltage though!!!

However--if you can make usage of the excess voltage via some driver board (a.k.a. Corbin's, Erv's)... that voltage can be utilized via pulse width modulation (not to mention some capacitors), extra voltage *MAY* not be so wasteful. Within reason.

Anyhow. Thanks Ace!

P.S. Elrond, bummer to hear you weren't able to get involved in BOP II. It's ok, I have an old cast member to play the role.

[erv]

may I ask which LED / datasheet you are refering to, Ace ?



That's one very interesting LED there.

A few things I noticed after viewing the PDF. Nine seperate die in three groups of three with a seperate positive terminal for each series of three die with a common negative terminal for all nine die arranged in a single interconnected matrix.

[acerocket]

Erv, Dregan was kind enough to share the pdf of the new LED he found with me. I don't want to get on his bad side by giving out his information. I will PM him and ask if he would be willing to share it with you or allow me to pass the info along to you also. I have 'hoarded' info before when I was working on projects until I finished it because I didn't want somebody to beat me to bringing and idea out. I can respect that Dregan may want to do the same. Case in point, this is why I didn't post anything about the tri-lux until I had a working prototype. But I will ask and see if would mind.

[erv]

Thanks Ace,
I don't want to bug Dregan with a second PM,
please let him know that I'm also working on a tri-lux, whatever the LED chip is : I'm planning a 3 LED version of my Crystal Focus Saber Core (what ? a buttered toast with 3 sides ? Yes : the top, the bottom... and the edge, if the toast is thick enough !)
Erv'

[Dregan]

For the record, I am the most easygoing guy you'll ever meet. PM's don't bug me.

There are several reasons I'm reluctant to publicly share the datasheet is that there are several people who make part of their living off these. I'm not one of them, I just make sabers for fun and friends that want one, but I have a high degree of respect for those that do try to turn a profit. I don't want to step on their toes by turning everyone on to a competing product, then get those people mad because the new LED doesn't have all the kinks worked out.

For everyone, the challenge with this LED is the size of it. I'm not going to be sure until I get mine (already ordered) but I'm doubtful it will fit in a standard holder, and almost certain that typical optics won't work. I'm thinking a refractory rather than a columnating lens, like what Ultra uses in his Padawan sabers. But there's still the challenge of making the holders and heatsinks.

Oh, one other thing, this LED does not come on a PCB like a Lux Star or cone thereof, so there's the additional challenge of a mounting system.

[Novastar]

I, for one, think Dregan should keep it to himself. Let others discover on their own... they should be able to do so!

What tends to happen with people and info is that they become so focused on JUST that info--they can forget about innovations that are happening as we speak. Sort of like not seeing the forest for the trees... :)

Anyhow... it's clear that as weeks, months, years go by--innovations will occur and just as "X" comes out for a solution for (let's say) a solid, working, non-failing Lux triad... there will then suddenly appear "Y"--maybe for more $$$, but maybe not---that will achieve a similar result.

Ace (and probably Dregan) knows this all too well.

Whatever the case, I think it will be cool to see what INDIVIDUALS do for their own sabers (just a few)... and what the BUSINESSES then offer for the "masses".

In the end, it is simply a matter of what WORKS. As it is, I strive to find tighter "choke points" for the forward hand of all things! Most people are not super concerned with that. Fine. Also, I don't even care about movie accurate hilts. Most people I see are striving for a "Luke" or "Mara" or "Kyle" or "Gra-bok-bok" hilt... :) Fine. Not I.

(I made that up, so don't go looking in the EU for Gar-bok-bok..) :)

[Firebird21]

There are several reasons I'm reluctant to publicly share the datasheet is that there are several people who make part of their living off these. I'm not one of them, I just make sabers for fun and friends that want one, but I have a high degree of respect for those that do try to turn a profit. I don't want to step on their toes by turning everyone on to a competing product, then get those people mad because the new LED doesn't have all the kinks worked out.



There's something about this that just doesn’t sit right with me... I think it's the fact that this is not a forum for a saber building wholesale warehouse for saber building businesses; it's a forum for hobbyists to acquire parts for their sabers, for the most part.

For example... This is a "Hobby Shop" not the place where the hobby shop gets their stuff.


The forum is also for free trade of information in regards to saber building focusing on Tim's store. Talking about this product and keeping the product secret bugs me. If it works or even might work let the people try it for themselves, don't tease everyone and then keep it to yourself because you don't think it would work. (Not the same as trying to keep a trade secret.) If it does work then I'm sure Tim would be more than happy to sell it, just like the K2's. Furthermore, if you're putting unproven technology in your sabers that you sell for profit then shame on you.


At any rate, I may just have a bug up my a$$ today, but the progression of this topic is not sitting well with me. I’m not trying to start a fight; I’m just trying to keep this forum that I love on the right track and true to the intensions of its founder as I understand it... But I could very well be wrong, and that I think is for Tim to decide.

[Dregan]

My point is that if someone (Tim, Ace, Erv. or whoever) wants to use this to develop a usable product, they can. I myself may yet do the same. I will certainly be using it in a non-lightsaber application. The LED is very raw, not even mounted on a PCB and with limited or no optics availability. It's not something that the typical hobbiest will be comfortable with.

Out of respect for Tim and Ace, who are working to bring the Tri-Lux to the hobbiest, end consumer market, I'm not posting it publicly. That doesn't mean that I'm not sharing. I don't think it's very couth to advertise (or even show the source publicly) for a product that could compete with something that Tim and Ace will sell here.

Ace has seen it. As has Erv. It's free for the asking. If Tim wants to carry it, even better. I'm just not going to post it.

[Firebird21]

Ok, I think I see what you're saying now. You don't want to step on the Tri-Lux toes specificly, and that's what you're talking about when you talk about making a buisness of it.

[Dregan]

Exactly. Since Tim may be carrying the Tri-Lux, and he's kind enough to let us play in his yard, I don't want to go peeing on the azaelas. :shock:

[Dregan]

So, I got my LED on Saturday... and I played around with it... and it's a bust.

not just for saber making, but for everything I can think of. I may have to post pics to be clear, but they wired wthin thing all weird.

Since this is not capable of competing with a Tri-Lux, I'll post the Data Sheet (http://www.optekinc.com/pdf/OVTL09LGAx_Series.pdf)

If you look how it's made, you'll see three rows of three LED dies - 3 red, 3 gree, and three blue, from bottom to top. If you apply current to the top row, you get blue. If you apply to the second row, you get blue AND green. Third row, all three. THEY WIRED IT IN SERIES, NOT PARALLEL!!! HOW DUMB CAN YOU GET?

The size of this would have made it a challenge to fit in a saber, but I could have used it in one of my auto or home lighting projects, if it were true RGB, but there's no way to color blend. You get your choice of blue, teal, or washed-out purple (passes for white in the RGB world)

I'm gonna toss this thing up on ebay when I get home. I guess I'm stuck ordering my RGB's from China and still only having limited brightness. Grrr....

[Marsupial]

the internal diagram was drawn in the lower right-hand part of page 1 of those specs sheets.

I hope they have an alternate model of this, because I fail to see the point of RGB used that way.
but I believe their design was intended for a 3 intensity led system (3-6-9 leds of the same color) and the RGB is just a gizmo they came with.

[Dregan]

Nope. This is the only RGB they make.

And, when I called about optics, they said, "under development"

I suspect that the RGB is a spinoff of the monochromatic ones, not a seperate product. Hence the same internal wiring diagram.

Great potential. Stupid execution.

[neophyl]

Oh thats a definate RGB led. You can still drive any seperate colour you just have to wire it up differently.

In practical terms to use it as a multicolour changing led you would need to build a special driver.

With the way your connecting it you are using the common cathode and then supplying power to the anodes, of course that lights up either 1, 2 or 3 complete rows.

If for example you only wanted to light up the middle row then you would wire positive up to the '6 chips row' and wire neagtive up to the '3 chips row'. Power would then only flow through the middle row.

Thats what I mean about building a special driver, it would have to be capable of switching both positive and negative positions around on all 4 pins (well positive to the 3 rows and negative to the common and 3 and 6 row pins).

Pretty straightforward with a microcontroller and 7 mosfet transistors rated for the load.

[Dregan]

If that's the case, then there might yet be hope for this thing.

I still think it's a little large for a saber, but the mood light and auto fixtures I make could sure benefit from this.

On that note, i finished my first motorcycle install this weekend. Had to weatherproof everything, but (even if I do say so myslef) it's a very good-looking install.

[Marsupial]

yeah, technically... connecting between 2 of the side tabs (let say, between row 1 and 2 instead of common and row 2) should light what's in-between...

however, driving will be different then simply applying current to separate channels, as mentioned by neophil. That can prove to be interesting.

this being said, we need to think that at 1.76" large with the tabs (widest diagonal almost 2.5 inch) it might be something we won't want to use for sabers.

[Lord Maul]

it might work size wise, if you were to have a bubble so to speak in the emitter where it would sit. that would look cool if you did it right and make the diameter big enough for the led