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View Full Version : Anyone tried the Z-led P4's ?



neophyl
04-07-2007, 04:14 AM
Just found a new (to me) led that looks good from the data sheet.

Seoul Z-Led P4, runs from 350ma to 1A and at 1A has 240lm output. Also has a forward voltage of under 4v so comparable to the 3w or a K2 electrically. They also appear to have the same star configuration and looks like they can use the same optics as a luxeon.

Ive just ordred a couple to test so i'll find out soon if they can. If everything is as the data sheets say then a good upgrade to my 130lm white K2, almost double the light for the same in.

Datasheet http://www.dotlight.de/datasheets/SeoulP4.pdf there if you want to check it out.

Dregan
04-09-2007, 02:43 PM
I would already have built one, but my usual suppliers either don't carry it (hint hint, Tim :wink: ) or only have the lower bins.

As soon as I get a decent one, I do intend on giving it a good workout.

darthdan
04-12-2007, 09:59 PM
What would you use for optics for these? And how would you go about mounting them to a heatsink? Specifically Tim's 1-1/4" sink tube heatsink. I may have to buy one of these...

Lord Maul
04-12-2007, 10:06 PM
if they do work in star format, then just like a normal lux :wink:

until neo confirms this, it will be a mystery

neophyl
04-13-2007, 02:56 AM
Well its on its way from Germany to here (UK) so I should get it early next week sometime. I'll be slapping it in my sabre as soon as it arrives dont worry :)

darthdan
04-13-2007, 03:33 AM
where would a guy go about getting a star board to mount one of these to? I've looked around...

neophyl
04-13-2007, 05:52 AM
The one Im waiting for is already in a star format.

Ive ordered it from dotlight in germany. http://www.dotlight.de/shop/product_info.php/cPath/292/products_id/909

If you want a blank star to mount your own emmitters on then you can pick them up on ebay such as here http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Luxeon-K2-Alu-Star-Neu-New_W0QQitemZ190031606516QQihZ009QQcategoryZ12950Q QtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem another german firm.

Marsupial
04-13-2007, 08:14 AM
I've been looking at an asian reseller that has the U-bin z-power SSC leds, always wondering if its good or if its just an asian luxeon knockoff with boosted up spec sheets. (also wondering if I can trust the asian reseller himself)

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1445

they also have cree brand luxeon shaped power leds in white that can go up to 100 lm at 350 mA. (altough I doubt they'd support up to 1 amp.)

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1302

neophyl
04-13-2007, 09:47 AM
Marsupial, the Seoul Zled-P4 rank U is what I have coming to me from dotlight but that seller is cheaper so thanks for the link :)

As for the Cree leds, well alot of the custom flashlight guys have been using them and having plenty of success. It was the CPF (Candle Power Forums) that put me onto the Seoul led in the first place. Saw them mentioned, read a few threads and noticed that dotlight who I get leds from anyway were stocking them. Couldnt really resist :)

I would have tried a cree but they need their own optics and so far those Ive seen are bigger than the equivalent luxeon ones so Ive not bothered.

At under $8 inc shipping I think that retailer is worth the risk. In fact I might just order a couple anyway once Ive tested the one I have coming. Can never have enough leds :) Besides Ive got loads of EL sabres I could convert.

Marsupial
04-13-2007, 11:16 AM
I'm seriously interested in whatever result you can post us... both at 1 amp and 350 miliamps.

If brightness is increased, even with colored filters, I'd think of changing my 1W star/Os for those P4 U-bin under Corbin's driver at 350mA.


But for now, I'll be moving in less then 3 months, so I start to stop ordering stuff as I'll be packing most everything soon. I'll mention it: I hate moving. but with the new place I'll have my own workroom. :)

anyway, I hope those SSC leds makes good results.

Dregan
04-16-2007, 09:16 AM
DealExtreme is a good dealer. I've bought a lot of stuff from him. Always a good experience.

He also posts @ candlepowerforums. Nice guy.

Marsupial
04-16-2007, 09:18 AM
Thanks a lot for the info dragan.

Novastar
04-20-2007, 06:36 PM
That would be awesome if they had more than white in the higher output ranges...

unless I'm missing something??

Marsupial
04-20-2007, 11:45 PM
color lee filters.


if you have 100 lumens, and the filter leaves 80% throug, you still have about 80 lumens. ^_^ in your choice of color.

neophyl
04-22-2007, 01:19 PM
Doesnt quite work like that though.

If for example you put a red filter on a white led you blockout everything but the red naturally. Unfortunately the red component only makes up about 1/3rd of the output so you get around 30 lumens. Id compare it to a 1w red really. Some combinations you dont lose much though and the ability to change it is great.

If you want a specific colour that already exists in an led though go for that instead.

Novastar
04-25-2007, 02:08 PM
Totally agreed with Phil on this one (dang Phil... you KNOW YOUR STUFF left and right!!!)...

Light wavelengths are just that--wavelengths... they're not digital! Your eyes don't see *EXACTLY* just one nm measurement... they see several, with one particular wavelength (or a few that are super close in nm) as the MOST dominant.

For example, for... let's say a run-o'-da'-mill Cyan, whatever that means (middle bin???):

5% @ 520nm
10% @ 515nm
15% @ 510nm
33% -- dominant light you see, @ 502 - 507nm
15% @ 498nm
10% @ 495nm
5% @ 490nm

These are approximations, naturally. The point is--what Phil is saying is true. A filter would (most likely) cut out the "fringe" portions due to the nature of a filter. And you'd have more like this:

3% @ 510nm
30% -- dominant light you see, @ 502 - 507nm
3% @ 498nm

These are approximations, naturally.

However, I SUPPOSE you could... like... get *just* the right filter and make little holes... or... something... I don't know!!!

All I know is that if you MUST use a filter--you should make it as transparent as possible. In other words, like a tinted contact for an eye.

This is best if you simply want to just slightly tweak the color in one direction or another. Otherwise, leave it alone and try buying another LED later on--you might get lucky and get the bin you "want". :)

Marsupial
04-26-2007, 09:31 AM
Still, if they have high ennough white output, and you add a filter, you might gain in luminosity compared to a lesser output colored led.

which is why its not so much a downer that they don't have colored ones yet.


Phil, did you receive your P4? we're eager to hear about them.

Novastar
04-28-2007, 08:41 PM
That is a good point Mars... considering what Phil said--since black is simply the absence of most all "visual" colors... white being the presence of most all of them...

Still... I would like to see some technical data regarding whites + color filter... and then some colored LED where the white +filter "wins out".

I think it would literally have to be a very detailed, super-precise amount of work to "dial it in" all pimp and shizzle, heheheh

Marsupial
04-30-2007, 09:44 AM
Well, white + filters is what is used on stage. They don't own colored bulbs, just white ones and a bunch of filters. The samples we can get are actually smaller versions of the ones used for stage lights.

The question is mainly "how much luminosity remains after the filter".

neophyl
05-01-2007, 11:50 AM
Sorry its taken so long to report on the Seoul P4. I got them just before the weekend but we hve a big event this weekend that Ive been doing stuff for.

Anyway I also wanted to put it in a sabre for a proper test.

Ok test sabres are as follows. Sabre A has a white K2, rank U (130lm), its driven my Erv's crystal focus board.

Sabre B is the new one with the Seoul P4 rank U star installed. Identical optics to sabre A (5 degree). Rated at 240lm. Driven by a konlux driver at 1000ma.

Wish I could get some decent pics but I cant. First impressions is that yep its brighter thn the K2. But NOT 110lm brighter. As an alternative though at a cheaper price its great. Its also brighter at less current than the K2 (see pic towards end of post).

Heres where things get a bit complicated though. I started putting various filters in line with a blade to see what things look like.

Now I dont have the Lee filters book yet as they sent me the wrong one grrrr. Anyway I do have primary green, red and blue as well as orange and yellow lee filters from my old disco lighting days. I also have the assortment thats sold in the shop.

Putting a blue filter in the P4 gives a really nice pale blue thats brighter than the K2's blue.
The Red filter gives very similar results between the 2.
Yellow, prefer the P4 as its a brighter yellow, same with the orange.
Green filter. Heres where it gets weird. The K2 even at 1A puts out a better more 'green' blade than the P4. The P4's is more of a pale apple colour really compered to the green of the K2. Pity really as I usually stick green filter in my sabre.

The purple filter from the shop the K2 gives a 'better' purple as the P4's is a bit lavender in comparison. Brighter though. I want a better purple filter which is why Ive been after the Lee book.

Anyway I upped the current on the K2 to 1.3 amps (thanks Erv, makes it so much easier :) )

This is the comparison :-

http://www.spartandesign.co.uk/pictures/p4vsk2.jpg

as you can see the P4 still appears a bit brighter but not by much. When both running at 1A theres more of a difference.

In conclusion Id generally go for the P4, its just brighter. Also its pretty bright even at 350ma so I think its a good replacement for those setups with limited current drive.

btw sabre B (the new one) looks like this :-
http://www.spartandesign.co.uk/pictures/iksabreprogress3.jpg

which makes having the brightest white led pretty important doesnt it ;)

Marsupial
05-01-2007, 12:59 PM
Thanks for the review!!!

2 questions tough.

how does the optics work. Same optics as normal stars?

also...

Also its pretty bright even at 350ma so I think its a good replacement for those setups with limited current drive.


let say I have 2 of the old corbin 1W drivers, should I think about changing my star/Os for U-bin P4s?
I have a red-orange, an amber and a green star/o.

(maybe I should do a run test myself..?)


nice new hilt BTW

neophyl
05-01-2007, 01:23 PM
The optics were 'standard' ones designed for a 3 or 5w luxeon star. They fit to the seoul stars I got with no mods needed. The ones I use though are not quite the same as the ones in the shop. The holders are slightly different but Im 99.9% sure that the TCSS ones will fit as Ive used them in the past. Its just the ones I use now are cheaper for me to pick up in the UK.

http://www.rapidonline.com/netalogue/zoomed/Large/55196001.jpg

As for replacing your 1w leds I havent seen what they look like in person so its pretty subjective. If your happy with them Id just leave them, especially the green one as Im not impressed with the P4's green output. A high rank K2 in the specific colour should do well even at reduced current if you really wanted to change out.

Always better to build new ones though 8) More sabres that way lol.

Novastar
05-03-2007, 12:56 PM
Great comparison, Phil! Thanks...

As to the white vs white (1A P4 to 1.3A K2)... is it me or does it look like one is "warm white" while the other is more of a "true white" (with bluish tones)?

Reminds me of that 6500K vs. 5000K thing you can do on a monitor to see warmer tones vs. "brighter".

So do tell... is there a wavelength difference???

neophyl
05-03-2007, 01:49 PM
Id definately say there was as that would account for the fact that even though brighter the P4 produces a worse looking green blade when used with the green filter I had compared to the K2. P4 was better on blue though.

Then again if you really really want green tht bad you could just use a proper green led lol. Im going to swop out the K2 after this weekends events for my second P4 and turn my toast down to 1A which should increase the run time even more :)

Novastar
05-03-2007, 08:04 PM
That's true... going from 1.3A to 1A is probably not very noticeable visually... but your saber will run longer I'd imagine.

Mine was originally set to "58" when I got the Plecter v1.2 runtime of around 3 hours 40+ minutes. Insane!

Now I'm setting it to "60" just to see.

lol...

enter Princess Bride quote:

"NOT TO FIFTY!!!!" :D

darthdan
05-10-2007, 09:31 PM
I just put one of these in a saber direct drive 4.5V with a 1ohm 2watt resistor. This is the resistor that the calculator I used came up with.

Someone on another thread said that I should use a smaller resistor for this.

I am wondering if this is true since I put it next to a 3W white with the same setup and I really can't tell a noticable difference between the two.

Thoughts?

Novastar
05-10-2007, 10:32 PM
Hi darthdan...

Well, in my opinion--the visual difference is ultimately the thing that matters most. After all, who cares if saber X is at 1.3A, saber Y is at 1.0A... and no one can visually TELL?

I'll offer a guess on what the person who is telling you to use a "smaller" resistor is saying...

They are basically trying to help you eek out every last lumen from the LED, every last bit of current from the batteries without smokin' your LED.

But it is very simple. If you gain a 1% (or even 5%) increase in brightness.... who CARES?!?! Also, if you push your LED *TOO* far, you won't just reduce its already long lifespan... you'll kill it completely.

To me, the only things worth seeing are differences by 25% or more. Preferably 50% or more in my thinking.

Otherwise, the eyes simply won't tell the difference, especially under the following conditions:

1. Differing LED colors.
2. Differing blade lengths.
3. Differing diffuser materials.
4. Differing drivers (resistor, Corbin, Plecter, FX, etc.)
5. Differing LED bin itself.
6. Someone looking at your saber from 4+ ft. away.
7. Someone looking at your saber from 4+ ft. away while you're using/spinning/fighting with it.

Ultimately, it is up to you though. Getting a different resistor that gives better results (via a multimeter or whatever)... is fine! And inexpensive.

Visually however--won't make the slightest bit of difference unless your resistor calcs are WAAAAAY off in the first place. Which it appears--yours are not. :)

darthdan
05-10-2007, 11:08 PM
Right, but why would a LED rated at 80 lumens and one rated at 240 lumens have the same output? It really doesn't seem like its working much past half capacity...

Novastar
05-11-2007, 01:24 AM
Post the spec where they claim the 240.

I have a feeling that... they may have EMBELLISHED, lol. Which is not surprising, since methods of measuring lumens... is about as questionable (sometimes) as measuring the "fog density" of a fog machine.

I believe even Neophyte thought the P4 was not exactly "ridiculously" brighter than a Lux III/K2/V whatever on an apples to apples thing.

At 240 vs. 80... you're right--you would THINK you'd see a large difference. By at least 50% brighter.

Just know this... 2x the lumens... doesn't really equate to "twice as bright". It depends on many things.

But certainly the thing SHOULD be brighter. Are you able to measure the thing with an ammeter to determine if you're driving it near the suggested max continuous current?

neophyl
05-11-2007, 01:43 AM
Yeah Ive got some thoughts :)

Before I bought mine I checked the data sheets naturally and it stated a forward voltage of arounf 3.8v which is similar to the K2. Now all leds the forward voltage tends to increase the closer you get to its driving limit so more juice through it = higher forward voltage which for a resistor setup means less current through.

In actuallity though the P4 I used had a Vf greater than 4v. Now transistors have a slight voltage drop, battery conectors have a slight voltage drop, heck a less than perfect solder joint can drop voltage. If your running a stock MR then the cumulative voltage drops are probably only barely enough to go over the P4's forward voltage i the first place. There will be no way you are running it at full.

Even replacing the transistors on my MR mace for a much better one I cant get it to drive a normal 3w white properly due to the diodes that the 6 battery mace has. The mauls and other 3 battery versions though dont have those so can drive the led much better.

I was at a troop with a friend who had an ultra converted white maul, I was using my Imperial knight sabre, also with a ultra blade in there but with a P4 driven properly by a driver. The visual difference was massive. Mine was alot brighter, at least 2x as bright although Im sure the 3w led could do better if it was properly driven.

From your description it sounds like theres definately not enough juice getting through and with a 3xaaa mr driven solution there might not be any chance to either.

Novastar
05-11-2007, 01:53 AM
Hi Phil... good to hear from you again...

I also just saw on a P4 site that the 1000ma is really only referring to "peak fwd current", which it details as the following:
------------------------------------
The surge current describes at what maximum current the LED can be operated short term.
Attention!
Here the controlled surge current in the range of milliseconds is meant. A LED will IMMEDIATELY BE DESTROYED if this current will be used longer term.
-------------------------------------
I don't know if that's pretty much the same with the K2 @ 1500ma, but I can only wonder...

Know anything about this Phil? I mean, MY assumption is that the Lux K2 Green's "max cont. current" of 1500ma... is NOT meaning that if you run it at 1500ma for a long time, you'll fry it, lol

Sounds like 1000ma on the P4 Seoul will kill it if you do so for longer than 1s or so.[/u]

neophyl
05-11-2007, 02:39 AM
Got a link to the site you saw that on ?

In my impknight sabre the P4 is being driven by a konlux 1A constant current source. I was certainly using it for more than a few minutes. Not sure of the max time but it was certainly on for more than 10 minutes at any one go and over an hour total and its still working perfectly.

The datasheet I have for the P4 has a note about not driving at rated current for more than 5 seconds without a proper heatsink but thats apllicable for all the high power leds like luxeons.
It also states that it can be pulsed at 1.8A if the duty cycle is 10% or less with a frequency greater than 1kilohertz so it can certainly withstand higher currents for a few microseconds. 1A appears to be the max continuous though. Like the K2's 1.5A continuous max.

darthdan
05-11-2007, 03:21 AM
I'm not driving mine off of an MR board, just 4.5V and a resistor.

Is a 1 ohm 2watt resistor the right one for these?

Novastar
05-12-2007, 05:40 PM
Wish I could tell you, Darthdan... my guess is that it would be fine, given your battery setup. But I don't know how the P4s work.

NeoPhyl... here's the link
http://www.leds.de/product_info.php?language=en&info=p265_Seoul-Z-LED-P4-Emitter--wei---240-Lumen.html

I *STILL* don't get the "240" lumen thing. Ha. My left uh... ... uh... leg. Yes, my left LEG. :)

neophyl
05-13-2007, 03:37 AM
You might find this useful http://www.luxeonstar.com/resistor-calculator.php

If the led does have a 3.8v forward voltage then at 4.5v @1ohm you are only going to be pushing 700ma through the led. You need a 0.7ohm resistor to get 1amp through it. If your P4 actually has a higher forward voltage like mine (4.05v) then thats going to be even less current through it.

You will get 1a through if you use a 6v supply and a 2.2ohm 3watt resistor. You wont get full capability out of it at 4.5v.