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View Full Version : how bright is a "real" lightsaber?



dbraxton9
01-01-2006, 09:39 PM
with all the talk about lumens and LED brightness etc., it occurs to me that the since the movie sabers are special visual effects, we have no idea how bright a real one is. in ROTJ, luke's saber is plenty bright and colorful in the tatooine sunlight, but making ANY lightsource that could do that is nearly impossible (and unsafe to be sure). in ESB which shows lightsabers in near darkness, they do not even illuminate the actors' faces. so my question is "how bright is bright enough?" i usee my EL sabers for fanfilms so i only need it to show up on camera, but i wonder what others think.
DB

xwingband
01-01-2006, 10:09 PM
If you really want the look of the movies you need to rotoscope like they do. I think EL shows up badly in comparison and LEDs are closer but still seem like a lighted stick on film.

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dbraxton9
01-01-2006, 10:21 PM
the original effect in EpIV was a lighting trick in the beginning. they used a product called Scotchlite from the 3M company that is basically like the paint used on reflective street signs and road lines. it did not work well enough so they scrapped it and went with the rotoscoping. but the scenes with lightsabers BEFORE the duel with vader, they used the reflective paint (which has microscopig glass beads to catch the light). that's where the distinctive shimmer comes from, it's a tiangular blade with a motor in the hilt that spins it. looked cool to me, but can't work in a duel.
DB

xwingband
01-01-2006, 10:29 PM
I knew that.[;)] It doesn't even answer your own question so it is quite irrelavent.

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dbraxton9
01-02-2006, 04:07 AM
excuse me, but are you the moderator of this forum? while you definitely provide some useful technical advice, you have a really snotty way of replying to people's posts.
you bitched about me posting a question both as a reply and as a new thread even though it really DID pertain to two separate topics, mentioning something about "you will get banned for multiple posts like that. It costs money to host a forum and It costs more with more posts".
are you paying for this forum? if so I will happily quit wasting your time, space and money by not posting to this site anymore. I will also gladly caution any others to likewise cease. there are several pages of utterly pointless "nerd vs geek" discussions on this forum that also cost money. are you going broke because of it? are your crabby comebacks any less expensive?

you miss the point of this thread entirely with your response. Once more i will state it simply: the original prop DID glow with reflected light that CAN be measured and compared to the lighting around it (in fact it was because that is what light meters are for in filmmaking, but i bet you knew that too, huh?). therefore one can ask "when is it bright enough" with a real world frame of reference instead of comparing to rotoscope.
did you get it that time? is it "relevant" enough?
DB

Protein5000
01-02-2006, 07:33 AM
Lay it down Brax.......

Some people are too obsessed with forum etiquette.

If you pounce on everyone for making a mistake on the forums, people will be less likely to post because they will think someone will jump down their throat for not spelling "Light Saber" properly, or that people wont be considerate enough to try and understand what a foreigner is trying to say in their broken English. This means less posts, less information sharing, fewer ideas = less opportunity for development.

Relax....It's just a forum.

xwingband
01-02-2006, 08:34 AM
Jeez, I didn't mean to seem like I was jumping down your throat. Honestly I didn't appreciate the history lesson, but I didn't get angry. It seemed like "teach the ignorant one a lesson on star wars".

You also took what I said out of context. I said I've been at OTHER places where multiple posts get you banned, and by cost I meant Tim is paying to host this forum in some way. I'm pretty sure Tim doesn't care but in the interest of sharing information yes, "forum etiquette" helps. I also have no problems with the "pointless nerd v. geek" discussions because they are in the misc forum. If those topics popped up in say the LED blade forum I'd be "Why is this here?" just the same.

Since Lucas eventually gave up the skotchlite I think it's silly to pursue it to measure the brightness since you wouldn't be using skotchlite anyway. If you were given a light meter's measurement would you measure it against the EL? I think in practicality this would be a fruitless effort since it's a directional light (studio lighting) being reflected versus ambient light (EL). As a reflection wouldn't the brightness be slightly less than the source light anyway?

Just because I didn't give you a number doesn't mean I didn't address the question or "missed" the point. EL isn't bright enough but LED's are. EL looks like a glowstick on film. If a measurement is all you wanted you could have just asked if anyone had a lightmeter and a skotchlite blade. You asked for other's thoughts and I gave mine. I can't help it if I didn't give the response you were looking for.

Protein5000, If you think I've done any of that tell me. I have told people to mind their spelling because we have a spell check now and there's no excuse not to take the time to spell correctly. Also I did that one time ask someone who was a foriegner to restate what they wanted because I was confused but it's not like I said "WTF, what languauge do you speak?"

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WeirdoTransvestite
01-02-2006, 10:47 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Protein5000

Lay it down Brax.......

Some people are too obsessed with forum etiquette.

If you pounce on everyone for making a mistake on the forums, people will be less likely to post because they will think someone will jump down their throat for not spelling "Light Saber" properly, or that people wont be considerate enough to try and understand what a foreigner is trying to say in their broken English. This means less posts, less information sharing, fewer ideas = less opportunity for development.

Relax....It's just a forum.
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The Internet: Serious Business

Those who see the light at the end of the tunnel, need to stop staring at the sun.

scaarmor
01-02-2006, 03:23 PM
I think everyone here can agree with me that they, myself included, have at one time or another misread the meaning of a post, e-mail,etc. With no way to convay emotion or tone of voice they can be easily misunderstood...I have before (in e-mails, not here) tried to ask a friendly question that was inturpreted incorrectly and lost a friend over it. Everytime I read an e-mail, post, etc. I read it several times using different tones of voice and all that good stuff to make sure the guy who just put me down, and should be hunted and shot in the street, didnt possibly mean it in another much nicer context. When you have no emotion or facial expressions to go by you have to naturally give some space for errors in inturpretation. I am sure that I will someday leave a post here that will be read wrong and take some flack for, but when that happens I know everyone will be able to be adult enough to hear me out and get back to why we are here in the first place.

I am not trying to further the argument, just thought everyone should remember that errors happen, and always will. We have to just expect it and be able to appoligize and move on.

Cain

***It is now that we battle.When you die, await my arrival in the afterlife where we will battle again.Perhaps there you may have the ability to defeat me,but not here,not now,not this day.So let us part with words and embrace the blade.***

Strydur
01-02-2006, 04:16 PM
I am not going to comment much on this discussion. I dont moderate the forums much and will leave it for you to work out among yourselves as long as it doesnt get violent in here. I will say though that at this time I dont have any bandwidth issues. As far as I can tell my current status is.

Bandwidth: 9114.03 MB of 250000.00 MB

and rolls over on the 4th I believe. So it looks like we are far from having bandwidth issues.

Tim
The Custom Saber Shop

xwingband
01-02-2006, 05:19 PM
That's a lot of bandwidth, but in the future it may not be enough. Hopefully your bussiness will take off that much.[:D] I suspect someday a type of index will have to be made so that we don't have to refer to previous discussions when someone asks a "noob" question or just something already discussed.

Again I'll say I never intended to come off as "snotty" in any of my replies. I'm just trying to help like everyone else. I like this saber board a lot mostly because it's just people building their sabers. On ASAP many people like to withhold their work for fear of getting "their" ideas taken. Example: Jeff Parks won't touch any forums because of people that reverse engineered his work.

I've learned some stuff and I hope others have learned some from me too. Peace everybody???[8D][:)]

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TI-525
01-02-2006, 08:13 PM
uhm honestly if you take this stuff too seriously then some comments are better off to your selves
and forum etiquite? why????
sometimes the subject of this thread will get off topic and that will happen often and sometimes the topic will change to another
sometimes you really shouldnt care unless its really getting on your nerves
forums should be fun and dumb sometimes not all serious and straight to the point
once in a while correcting people is nice but then when you do it constantly people dont like it
im not saying anyone does this
but if you do tone it down
this is a hobbie for fun

Protein5000
01-02-2006, 08:28 PM
I agree Xwing, This forum has a much nicer spirit about it than the other saber forums.

I also totally agree with you that the newbie's (me being one) should carefully read and search all forums before asking questions -I read every forum and have been visiting this site for about a month before I even posted - because they should find their basic questions will be answered. But I suppose if people aren't used to forums there should be some kind of warning telling people to carefully read through the posts before asking questions - I learn't the hard way on Bodybuilding forums.

Mur-Pa DiLos
01-03-2006, 03:16 AM
I agree with Cain about all of us do this every once in a while, so let jedi be jedi and get on with it.

So how about getting back to the topic?[:D]
In Ep II, there is a fight between Count Dooku and Anakin that I think we could look at for a reference. Yeah the fight was slow and Anakin only used two sabers for about 5 seconds but the pointless "glow on face gag" does have some merit to what we are trying to do. If we could figure out what Mr. Lucas used in that film for the glow, we could figure out the brigtness. Just a thought. I'm sure it is flourescent or LED, but how bright? Hmm.

Just trying to get off the b****ing and back onto the subject.[;)][:D]

LAN-ED-TUL
01-03-2006, 03:47 AM
the whole point of this forum is for folks to share ideas and give input to be kicked around. a lot of great ideas have already come from here and hopefully will continue to do so. i thoroughly enjoy this forum. i have learned a lot from fellow saber building enthusiats. i have tried to help with what i know too. thats what its all about folks. like my place of works motto goes: people helping people being successful.

yeah, theres gonna be the occasional post, that might irritate some folks. but we all have to show a little forgiveness and go on. this forum has so much information to share with everyone, and a lil' bump in the road once in a while is going to happen.

we need to just shake it off and get back to whats important, sharing ideas and info with one another.

Lan-Ed-Tul

Mur-Pa DiLos
01-03-2006, 10:36 AM
I think that this post should be now labeled "I love you, man" post.lol[:D][:p]j/k

Anyways what about my idea for the original topic, you know the one about "how bright is a "real" lightsaber?

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mur-Pa DiLos
So how about getting back to the topic?[:D]
In Ep II, there is a fight between Count Dooku and Anakin that I think we could look at for a reference. Yeah the fight was slow and Anakin only used two sabers for about 5 seconds but the pointless "glow on face gag" does have some merit to what we are trying to do. If we could figure out what Mr. Lucas used in that film for the glow, we could figure out the brigtness. Just a thought. I'm sure it is flourescent or LED, but how bright? Hmm.
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By the way, I chose Tim's shop because of this forum. I think that pretty much sums up my feelings of complete gratitude to all you guys (Xwing included). I've already e-mailed some of you and look forward to meeting the rest.[:)]

May the Force be with us all

Mi Gin Gonn
01-03-2006, 10:11 PM
I've read that having your camera's shutter speed around 60 frames per second gives a nice saber look. Yes, LED's will work, EL is most likely too dim. However, even a nice 180 lumen 3-watt red is going to look unusably weak in broad daylight...that's when rotoscoping will become necessary.

For darker lighting, like the very brief Anakin vs. Dooku shot in AOTC that was mentioned, this is where a LED saber really could give you the facial lighting effect. It's done so for me for still pics, makes no sense why it wouldn't for motion. Even if you rotoscope over the blades later it'll still light up your actors' mugs, saving you additional postproduction. This is, of course, assuming that the set is dark enough & looks good on video/film.

As far as the original question, how bright are sabers "supposed" to be, I don't think they are. There are a lot of technical inconsistencies in them from film to film that Lucas & his guys never overthought too much (stuff that's later revealed in the EU, geez they have an explanation for EVERYTHING, no matter how trivial...) I, personally, have always thought of them as a few times brighter than neon lights, the good clear ones that you can see in daylight. But that's just this fellow's opinion. By the way, I didn't put the word "supposed" in quotations to be smarmy, I mean that in a movie world vs. reality way[:)]

Keep up the excellent work everyone, it's a lot of fun to participate with people putting their noggins to good use on a friendly forum like this. Even if it does occasionally get off topic or we sound like the Falcon's flight computer droid brains bickering with each other.

"Chaka, call off Dawson, will ya?!"

dbraxton9
01-04-2006, 03:08 PM
Wow. I didn't mean to start all that! I just got the impression (mistaken, I now take it) that I was being singled out for making "dumb posts". I said all I had to say about it. I'm not mad and was not trying to make enemies anymore than anyone else here.
Truce!

I have almost no expertise in metalurgy or electronics etc pertinent to building lightsabers, but I have been making homemade videos and no-budget special effects for a long time and it crossed my mind that this all started with a low-budget practical effect that was actually seen on set.
If you dig Dr Who (which is shot on hi-def video), they used the same trick on a glowing sword effect in the 1988 Silver Nemesis episiode. I highly recommend all Lightsaber builders to watch at least the bonus features on this DVD. it shows behind the scenes clips that are WAY better and more informative than any about lightsabers in Star Wars have been. The glow is identical to that of the SW props (minus the flicker caused by the rotating triangular balde). Based on these clips and having experience with video's greater sensitivity to highlights, I'd say it is comparable to a car's highbeams in daylight, visible but not as bright as reflected sunlight off a mirror.

Lucas abandoned the scotchlite not because it didn't work but because the swords were very expensive and were getting destroyed in the duel scene. That is why David Prowse did not play vader in the other Trilogy duel scenes: because as a weightlifter he was too hard on the props.
Watch the original un****ed-with Star Wars (only available on VHS now). the blue sabers are scotchlight with rotoscoped color, the red is rotoscope only. In the duel with both together, notice the difference between vader's obviously rotoscoped opaque blade (looks like the laser bolts from stormtrooper rifles throught the film) and kenobi's glowing scotchlite blade. also notice the classic FX "flub" where vader steps between kenobi's blade and the light causing it to flicker on and off. One sword looks like an special effect, one looks like a regular photograph. you have to look at the original movie, all publicity stills are airbrushed and the dvds are digitally "corrected" to ruin the greatest film of the 1970's.

There is a huge difference in EL brightness depending on the color selected. Some do indeed look like glow sticks. However, I took a chance on a hot pink one and a yellow one for characters uncommitted to either sith or jedi. They look great with the video exposure set at normal comfortable levels and moderate (100w)incidental lighting. Slow Shutter helps the blade look brighter and the swing look dramatic but makes the rest of the figure look like stop-motion. someday I'll figure out how to upload these videos to show you just how much like the Trilogy these ELs can look. I have one of the pink saber in the dark extending slowly from the hilt using the forced-perspective optical trick used for Kenobi's draw at the end of EpIV. It looks WAY more real then those licensed sabers with the LEDs in the blade.I'll try to get some stills up in the meantime.

Nightwing
02-01-2006, 06:40 PM
For my upcoming FanFilm, I plan to use LED sabers, then rotoscope over them. That way, I'll ALWAYS have the glow coming off the sabers, in every scene.

Am I correct in assuming that a saber as bright as a "real" one would probably blind you?

dbraxton9
02-01-2006, 10:07 PM
i bet you decide your LEDs look better than the roto. My ELs look better than roto in fact. roto will look like the movies, but the LEDs will look REAL, more real than the movies, and that is truly something awesome. McGregor and Christenson missed out on having props that really light up, look real, and have built in sound effects. i bet a million bucks they have some of these themselves.

"Size matters not. Look at me! Judge me by my size do you? And well you should not! For my ally is the force, and a powerful ally it is!"

gundamaniac
02-03-2006, 02:51 AM
My two cents: If you watch the prequels, which I realize are practically blasphemy in almost every die-hard fan's book because of all the inconsistencies and tinkered-with storyline, the lightsaber actually casts a glow on Yoda simply because he is CG and can reflect the glow thanks to being a part of the artificial environment. However, the glow is not reflected in any human actors or other lightsaber-wielding Jedi/Sith. This, imo, leaves it up to the individual to decide whether they want a glow cast on surroundings or not. I personally think the reflected glow looks awesome.

As for ELs and LEDs looking "more real" than the movies...well I personally loved the ESB rotoscoping. Sure, no reflections were cast, but the blades shimmered a bit, not due to reflective tape on a rotating rod this time, but due to the imperfections in hand-rotoscoping entire scenes, and the blades still had a distinctive white core and a soft (note, soft) glow. In RotJ, the green skywalker blade lost its white core in several scenes, with a muddied olive green core, and in the prequels, the glow of the lightsabers was rather sharp and harsh, not soft like ambient light in the original trilogy. And the reason that I like the shimmering blades is that they are arcs of energy; the shimmers in my opinion added to the image of a powerful blade of energy that is emitted and barely kept in check by a mere cold metal handle.

Sorry for rambling...I realize I gave more than two cents. Maybe a dollar's worth? It really just comes down to personal preference and judgement, especially since we're dealing with completely impossible technology here and trying to equate it with reality.

A Jedi gains power through understanding; a Sith gains understanding through power.

dbraxton9
02-03-2006, 09:27 AM
my current video FX test is a lightsaber duel between a live actor (me) and a stop-motion animated Vader action figure. It looks better than it sounds, believe me. I had the chance with the action figure to try scotchlite on the saber blade. it looks really cool, but I still insist the ELs (getting LEDs later this year) look better. The scotchlite blade doesn't spin like the fullsize props did, so the shimmer is missing. One reason the rotoscoping looks the way it does in the prequels is that it's digital this time instead of done by hand. It looks better by hand to me. I agree the ANH and ESB shimmer (vader's blade in ROTJ shimmers better than luke's) is the coolest. I am trying to achieve this type of effect with a dimmer circuit that a friend is building for me, we'll see how it turns out.

"Size matters not. Look at me! Judge me by my size do you? And well you should not! For my ally is the force, and a powerful ally it is!"

photonalterations
02-04-2006, 04:15 AM
I would guess that it would be as bright as a spark gap from high voltage electrodes.only 3 foot arc instead of 1-2 inches
Here is a pic of my spark gap from a cold cathode driver.
http://www.photoninnovations.com/DVC00151.JPG

swear000
12-27-2012, 12:14 PM
Lumens are generally a measure of light intensity. However, the saber blade is much more than just a light.