A better way to do sleeves?

[Gungn1r]

Hey guys! I'm neck deep in my first saber and I've run into a bit of an issue. I'm trying to use some of the MHS sleeving to do a fore-end covering on my saber, but after six hours with a dremel, my results are less than stellar. Is there another way to go about manufacturing sleeving that can take my shoddy dremel skills out of the equation? I've mocked up my shroud in sketchup in the hopes that I could use a CNC machine, but I'm obviously way, way over my head there. Is there any other method that anyone has had success with or should I just purchase some MHS sleeving in bulk and go at it until I get a decent product?

Thanks!

[Silver Serpent]

Practice.

Also, get the flexible shaft attachment for the dremel. You get +50 to your Dremel-Fu score instantly.

I attach my printed template to my shrouds with a glue stick, and cut carefully just outside the lines, leaving a little extra. Then use hand files to bring the cuts back to the lines. You can always remove material, but you cannot add it back on.

Organic shapes and curves tend to be easier than straight lines, especially if you have shaky hands.

Get some PVC pipes from the plumbing section of your local hardware store, and practice on those. You can build shroud mockups for less than a dollar/foot while you're honing your dremel skills.

[Gungn1r]

I was afraid that was the answer, but your probably right. I just need to throw myself into it until I develop the full capabilities to make it look like I want it to. I've got the flex shaft attachment, but I still struggle with it.

You said you rough out the shape with the dremel and hone it in with a file. Do you have a good set of files you can recommend? I tried finishing my design out with the dremel and I think that's where I ran into some issues with run away lines and such.

Also, could you go into any detail about how you polish/finish the sleeve after you've got it in the shape you like?

Thanks again for all the help!

[Silver Serpent]

I've got a bench vise that I hold my saber parts with, and an old towel to prevent marks on the parts when I clamp down. My dremel is held up by a stand, so both hands are free for fine control of the the dremel's business end. If you're wrestling your parts and your dremel while you're trying to make cuts, you'll never get good clean lines. Be prepared to cut, stop, adjust the part in the vise, cut more, repeat.

I went to Lowe's and picked up a few standard sized files, plus a nifty set of needle files for detail work. A flat file, round file, and a half-round file are all good for general shaping. Then a decent set similar to this: http://www.lowes.com/pd_60199-86580-SF17_4294607655__?productId=3243140&Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNs%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar%7C1&facetInfo= for detailing work. The exact set is unimportant, so long as you get the sizes you need to work in the spaces of your saber parts. If you don't have any tight interior angles, you may be able to get by with the larger files. Check that you're getting files for metalwork. Woodworking files tend to have larger teeth that just chew up aluminum.

After I have my edges in the shape I like, I'll often clean up the sharp edges with a fine cut file, and then again with the sanding flapwheel attachment for my dremel. The sanding flapwheel can turn a hand-slicing nightmare of a shroud into a smooth, buttery experience.

If I want a polished finish on my aluminum parts, I start with sandpaper. Depending on how rough I've been in the crafting process, I'll usually start at 200-400 grit, and work upwards from there. For a mirror finish, I'll move up to 800 grit, then to 1200 and possibly 1500 grit, all wet sanded. The real magic happens when I break out my Mother's Magnesium and Aluminum Polish. A little dab of that with my buffing attachment, and I get a beautiful mirror shine on aluminum parts in seconds.

It's all about starting out with a rough design, and slowly refining it. The reinforced cutting wheels for your dremel are only the first step. I've easily spent 2-3 times as long working on a shroud as I have on the wiring for a single saber. Most of that time is just spent removing a few millimeters of metal here and there until I get the look I want. Practice and patience are going to be your best friends if you want a good shroud.

[Gungn1r]

Thank you so much for your in depth response. You've built me up at least enough to give it another go and see how it turns out. Part of the issue is that I was struggling with the limited selection of attachments I had for my dremel at the time, and part of it was eagerness. I'm going to buy a couple more reinforced cut-off wheels, some of the files you mentioned and really settle in and take my time with it. I really appreciate all the detail you've provided. I'll take another go and let you know how it turned out.

Last thing, I promise. Any advice for making tight radius'd 180 degree turns? I've got three on my saber that are only .25" across and I'd say that that was the part I struggled most with. How are you supposed to make a round hole with a dremel? Is it better to take a drill press to it instead?

[Silver Serpent]

That size? You're most likely going to drill a hole. Get a set punch to mark the location of your hole, drill it out with a smaller bit than the final diameter of your hole, and finish it up with a rounded needle file. Drill press if you have one, or drill bits with your dremel if you don't.

[amwolf]

What SS said, and adding the advice to let the tool do the work. Don't force it; there's no time limit or medal for speed cutting. Also, don't get frustrated (hard to do, right?!?). We've all really screwed up a shroud at one time or another; if it can't be salvaged or re-purposed then toss it in the recycle bin and start again tomorrow.

Dang, i type slow. Y'all had a whole conversation while I was writing.

[Gungn1r]

I'm not 100% sure what I ended up with is salvageable or not. What do you guys think?

9705
9706
9707

[Silver Serpent]

Definitely salvageable. The two side cuts look pretty good. A little cleanup, but nothing major.

You'll want to mark a couple straight lines on the back (top?) cutout. Either a sharpie and ruler, or some painter's tape. Then take a good-sized flat file (I'd use one of my 8" files) and slowly cut away the material until you have nice straight lines. Use long, smooth strokes to help get a straight line. Use a round file at the end to adjust the bottom rounded part.

You'll end up with a wider cutout on the back (top?) part than on the sides, but it'll still look good.

[amwolf]

You'll be surprised how many of those little dings on the surface near the cuts will sand out with some elbow grease and wet sanding with ever finer sandpapers (400/600/1000/1500). Easing those edges slightly will help as well and keep your fingers razor-cut free.

[Jabbas_reluctant_slave]

I've got a bench vise that I hold my saber parts with, and an old towel to prevent marks on the parts when I clamp down. My dremel is held up by a stand, so both hands are free for fine control of the the dremel's business end. If you're wrestling your parts and your dremel while you're trying to make cuts, you'll never get good clean lines. Be prepared to cut, stop, adjust the part in the vise, cut more, repeat.

I use an oven mitt and hold the shroud in my hand, it may be considered a little (a lot) less safe, but I feel I have much more control this way. Another tip I have is to do any drilling and detail cuts first, it can get tricky cutting little angles and drilling holes when the majority of your material is already removed, also save those little worn down cut off wheels they can be very handy for tight cuts.

[brett]

I think you are being much too hard on yourself judging by the look of your first attempt. Very few would not make mistakes on a first piece. I know in your mind you want perfection, but keep any attempts that did not turn out perfectly for practice, or even to rework in the future with a new design, on top of that, if your saber will be weathered small dings and chunks just look like battle scars. I have seen some sabers where jagged holes have been cut on purpose to imitate damage. But as far as your work goes I think it is pretty damn excellent, you will ALWAYS see improvement with practice. Long straight lines like your design (which I really like by the way) are difficult by hand, so you have done truly well. Do not be disheartened, outer sleeve material is relatively cheap, it is only time and sore muscles that you are paying for. (Well, I don't mean 'only', like that is unimportant ) Also these parts can always be replaced! Upgrading your saber is half the fun, and gives it a truly 'used world' look. I also found to pay for the best cutting wheel you can afford, some of the no name cheaper stuff blunts quickly, change your wheels as soon as it seems to cut not as well, and I often use the grinding burrs for getting through material fast, again, using the best I can afford.
Actually I just re-read your post with the images and you asked if it was SALVAGEABLE! It is more than that. Use it! It only looks like the real difference in the straight lines is the 'Top' cut, and where the biggest out of alignment area is you can put your blade holder screw there, if you use a larger headed thumbscrew,even a colour one to draw the eye, I am sure it could help, also, you could 'step' the wobbled cut, by making the crooked area wider, doing it in one or two steps. Might be a bit complicated, or not fit in with your design ideas though. But there are usually ways out, don't forget you are focussing on the imperfections, working on a tiny area of what will be the whole saber. It will lose some of its intensity when fully constructed with lights and sounds. Please, do not be disheartened! Wish you good luck in this and future builds!

[cannibal869]

The others give really good advice.
I tend to us a paper template as a guide for my cuts, then sharpie them onto the shroud.
I personally use a mechanix glove to hold my pieces while I dremel.
For complex curves, I basically cut straight or shallow curved lines and then smooth them out once I have enough material removed.

Practice, practice, practice. The Dremel-Fu is something that comes with time and patience. Also the more you practice and gain experience, the more you'll develop a "feel" for when things are going well. And you'll develop a better self awareness for when you're tired, frustrated, and need to take a break.

That said, that particular shroud design -- even if you had perfect cuts, I think you would find that the distal end would start to "splay" outward anyway. It's one of those things that you'll sort of learn to compensate for over time.

[FenderBender]

When I first came up with that design back in '08, I did it by hand and had to match the rear to the front as two separate shrouds. I glue grid paper on the sleeve material and draw the shroud direct onto the tube. Now, I use my mill to get the straighter lines and I don't usually have any problems with splaying. Though, you have the grooves pretty close to the end which will create a weak spot for 'tearing'. Shroud work is all about practice. I still have my first shroud for nostalgia and will never get rid of it. It serves as a reminder of where I started and what it took to get where I'm at now.....and it also provides a good laugh for my wife whenever she sees it....

[brett]

When I first came up with that design back in '08, I did it by hand and had to match the rear to the front as two separate shrouds. I glue grid paper on the sleeve material and draw the shroud direct onto the tube. Now, I use my mill to get the straighter lines and I don't usually have any problems with splaying. Though, you have the grooves pretty close to the end which will create a weak spot for 'tearing'. Shroud work is all about practice. I still have my first shroud for nostalgia and will never get rid of it. It serves as a reminder of where I started and what it took to get where I'm at now.....and it also provides a good laugh for my wife whenever she sees it....
Ha ha! That is a great story Fender, and I think, considering the quality of your work, an encouraging one too.

[Gungn1r]

Thank you all so much for your amazingly encouraging words.

Fender: I've been drooling over your designs for years, and of course I just HAD to to make a tribute for my first saber, regardless of whether or not I had the skill to do so. But it's really, truly comforting to hear from some amazingly talented people who all share similar stories of their first shroud work. We all have to start somewhere, and I plan on sticking with it until I can churn out something truly spectacular.

Thank you ALL for all of your advice, words of wisdom, and techniques. More than anything, this community is what is making this process such a fun and enjoyable experience and it makes me want to continue. I can't wait to get back to work on my shroud and make something I'm proud to share.

[Defcon4]

A piece of Aluminum corner trim works great for laying down a straight line on the tubed surface. Takes the fuss out of trying to hold a ruler in place.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v153/DEFCON4/rightangle_zpsd161a114.jpg

[AckAck]

I have also used a door jam to lay down lines on a rocket body tube. Same basic principle. I like the idea of the angle piece better though. Less chance to draw on the wall. :D

[Gnar-Gnar Gin]

wow brilliant with the angled trim! I too use the door jam but find making a long perfectly straight line almost impossible! I'm going to rig on up tonight!

[Denz]

In addition to a dremel you will want a good set of small files of various shapes. Taking your time and getting the filling / smoothing step right is key to having high-quality results.

Follow that with progressive sanding using 400-600-1000-1500-2000 grit paper. Stop when you get the finish level you like. 1500-2000 grit will give you a mirror finish. Personally I like to sand up to 1000 then do a directional sanding with 600, this gives a nice brushed look.

-Denzil

[Gungn1r]

A piece of Aluminum corner trim works great for laying down a straight line on the tubed surface. Takes the fuss out of trying to hold a ruler in place.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v153/DEFCON4/rightangle_zpsd161a114.jpg

That's brilliant! I've been trying to figure out the best way to get a straight line down for planning. Bravo!

[Defcon4]

Not trying to hijack the thread topic..

This is another jig I made for finding center on a pipe(There may be betters way of doing so). It works well if one end is larger or flared or something.

Because of the nature of the jig the pipe will always fall to center. I believe I set the gap on this at 1 inch(so the center line is 1/2 inch)

Made from some yard sticks and a strip of thick paper to lay the center line down on. Just set the pipe in the jig and mark on both ends at the center line.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v153/DEFCON4/FINDCENTER1_zps17a6a3b7.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v153/DEFCON4/FINDCENTER2_zpsf60f22b2.jpg

[Gnar-Gnar Gin]

Not trying to hijack the thread topic..

This is another jig I made for finding center on a pipe(There may be betters way of doing so). It works well if one end is larger or flared or something.

Because of the nature of the jig the pipe will always fall to center. I believe I set the gap on this at 1 inch(so the center line is 1/2 inch)

Made from some yard sticks and a strip of thick paper to lay the center line down on. Just set the pipe in the jig and mark on both ends at the center line.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v153/DEFCON4/FINDCENTER1_zps17a6a3b7.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v153/DEFCON4/FINDCENTER2_zpsf60f22b2.jpg

epic! between these two jigs, i'll always have straight lines! thanks guys!