Arduino sound board (design process)

[Darth Magnus.]

Hi guys, I have started making the first few steps towards designing an Arduino based sound board and I have realised that I need some outside input.
I know there has already been a failed attempt at a community based sound board so I'm really determined to make this one work.
Basically I wanted to start a thread on what people want and look for in a sound board, just a basic what is needed and what things make a sound board user friendly.

Fist things first what sort of price line should I keep this board to? I am hoping to make this sound board as a cheap (Hasbro like) alternative. As a guide I'm hoping to spend under $50

Second should I include a LED driver or RGB LED color control? I know there is a lot of confusion in the community about how to create different blade colors and it wouldn't be very hard to include a feature like this with the aid of the Arduino. If I were to do something with RGB control would it be better to do manual color control (with a potentiometer) or do the color control with the Arduino (program based color change) or would people find that to difficult to navigate?

These sort of questions are the ones I'm hoping to find answers to with this thread.
If this threads a bit to deep for this forum or if its in conflict with store interests, also let me know. I don't want to start upsetting people.

Anyway, everybody's input is defiantly welcomed.

(edit)

Ok guys, I have a few new question for everyone.

How important is sound?

and

How loud dose the sound have to be?

[Nick Knight]

Well more then anything i think a board that can handle high power is something lots of people are looking for. Everyone likes the 10 and 20 watt LED's. But Find me a sound board that can take 14 or 18 volts. I think if you build one around people that want high watt LED's it would be more then a little in demand.

[Darth Magnus.]

Excellent, thats another good point for me to think about. I will try to incorporate a high voltage input and high voltage switching.

[Skottsaber]

High voltage input is a waste. High power just gets turned into heat.
If you want to use ridiculously high powered LEDs there are well documented ways of doing so with boards that only put out 1.5A max.

[Darth Magnus.]

I wasn't talking about a high power input, just a high voltage input. Just a built in voltage regulator (for its internal electronics) I dont want to take the full power of the Batter pack. this board is aimed at beginners. They dont need to know how it works, just plug it in to what ever system they build and play around.

[Xanatos1986]

A board that is rgb ready would be cool like 3 diff led hook ups. So you could set the mA or A different to each dye... But I'm eltronically impaired lol

[Skottsaber]

I don't like to be a naysayer, but I would say if you're going for cheap then keep it simple.
RGB mixing hardware etc, it adds up.

If you want to go all out then by all means have at it, but be prepared to spend some more.

[KuroChou]

Arduino is a notoriously effective platform for RGB color mixing. Just put it in a conf file.

[Grubok]

As far as your plans for an accelerometer you need to take the considerations between analog and digital ones.
Digital ones would be easier to program but more clumsy with the swing sounds as the x,y,z are only on or off.
Analog ones can give varying outputs that can be monitored for changes outside a desired range from previous sample readings to begin/end swing sound

The switching, potentiometer controls,onboard dipswitches, or a rotary switch for presets for individual rbg controls can increase cost and space used quickly.
You could possibly use this persons work as a basis for single pot. control http://www.arduino.cc/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1207331496

[xl97]

Ive played with the Arduino before..

and IMHO.. while its can be FUN.. dont get set on some sort of retail 'product' ("I" feel it just wont happen that way)

bordering on if this should even be expanded on here on Tims forums.. I'll bring up many of the points that have been hashed out everytime this idea gets brought up by someone.

1.) taking a 'generic' platform like the Arduino/RFX..etc..etc will 'never' be as good as something designed for that specific purpose in mind.. (donest mean things cant be good..etc)

a bare bones 'arduino circuit' can be made for like $8 or something.... matter of fact here is one I made myself (etched the board,, designed the 'pcb'...etc) compared to a retail one I found on-line for around $10 or so..

also I think the board can only take up to 5v max..



5861

**(mine has a vRegulator on it.. the retail version does not)

Arduino doesnt just give you sound.. you'll need to most likely use someone elses code/library to get .wav files playing.. as well as implement an SD card.. and an 'amp' of some kind...

I have no clue on your experience level.... but speaking for myself.. not something that comes easy.

at this point not only are you just 'testing' a circuit.... where are you on room?.. also you havent even attempted to add in any LED driver.. (much less a 3-4 die RGBX driver addition)

Arduino can adjust the PWM of the pins.. but it can not power high power LEDS.. (only accent leds).... directly

You also wouldnt want to use a 'real' Arduino board in a saber each time.. as they are more a of a development board...


if you go ball bearing / nail & spring route for sensors.. you'll need to spend time on your code.. and figure out your own routine/algo for defining/triggering clash & swings..

if you go accelerometer..same things.. some events are easier than others to track

Good thing about Arduino is there is tons of community support on the internet.

[Darth Magnus.]

Ive played with the Arduino before..

and IMHO.. while its can be FUN.. dont get set on some sort of retail 'product' ("I" feel it just wont happen that way)

bordering on if this should even be expanded on here on Tims forums.. I'll bring up many of the points that have been hashed out everytime this idea gets brought up by someone.

1.) taking a 'generic' platform like the Arduino/RFX..etc..etc will 'never' be as good as something designed for that specific purpose in mind.. (donest mean things cant be good..etc)

a bare bones 'arduino circuit' can be made for like $8 or something.... matter of fact here is one I made myself (etched the board,, designed the 'pcb'...etc) compared to a retail one I found on-line for around $10 or so..

also I think the board can only take up to 5v max..



5861

**(mine has a vRegulator on it.. the retail version does not)

Arduino doesnt just give you sound.. you'll need to most likely use someone elses code/library to get .wav files playing.. as well as implement an SD card.. and an 'amp' of some kind...

I have no clue on your experience level.... but speaking for myself.. not something that comes easy.

at this point not only are you just 'testing' a circuit.... where are you on room?.. also you havent even attempted to add in any LED driver.. (much less a 3-4 die RGBX driver addition)

Arduino can adjust the PWM of the pins.. but it can not power high power LEDS.. (only accent leds).... directly

You also wouldnt want to use a 'real' Arduino board in a saber each time.. as they are more a of a development board...


if you go ball bearing / nail & spring route for sensors.. you'll need to spend time on your code.. and figure out your own routine/algo for defining/triggering clash & swings..

if you go accelerometer..same things.. some events are easier than others to track

Good thing about Arduino is there is tons of community support on the internet.

Thank you for your input, you have made many good points and I will try and address them all.

First of all I am not trying to build a high end board, I don't want to compete with the likes of Erv and hid Crystal Focus and Petit Crouton.
I just want to make a cheap and capable multipurpose board for beginners (People that don't want to spend as much).

I would have bought the base micro controller but for the development and building stages of this project I thought it would be much easier to use a pre assembled platform like the Arduino. I when with Arduino as there support base and forums are probably the best (I know thats debatable).

On the sound and SD card all the programming (code) and info is already done and is up on the Arduino forums. Im sure that some of it will have to be modded for this project but the base elements are still there.

Now for LED constant current drivers. I think this is were i will be tested the most. I personal don't know how Im going to add these at the moment, for now Im going to stick with Arduino controlled switching of the LEDs neutral. With straight battery power to the LED. I know this is frowned upon on these forums but again this is a beginners board.

Finally for the motion sensing abilitys, I have an analog Tri-axis acceleromter (as Gurbok pointed out seems to be the way to go) I plan on testing. It has variable voltage, gravity dependent outputs. They should be perfect for this application.
http://www.analog.com/en/mems-sensors/inertial-sensors/adxl335/products/product.html

If I have missed anything let me know and Ill try and answer it.

[xl97]

I have used both regular sensors.. and accelerometers in testing..

on both the RFX and the Arduino platform..

I dont know about selling a 'beginner board'.. since you'll be using public 'code' & libraries to build yours.. more like a DIY/tut board?

I would say ignore any/all LED driving and effects for now..

and yes using a 'real' arduino to 'test/dev' on is great.. but thats a huge step from porting it all to a pcb and related components.

so I say get your 'test bed' working with an SD card.. op-amp...vRegulator.. and practice playing audio by simple button press.

than move onto trying to trigger those same events from your sensor input.

[Darth Magnus.]

Excellent, I think were finally on the same page and Yes I think it will be best to stick clear of LED drivers for now.

I hope that when I'm done to either put a kit together with the code pre loaded on to the Arduino(or any other micro controller) and a straight forward color coded pin to pin wiring diagram or hopefully, just maybe a completed all in one board.

If not I will be making a detailed tutorial with completed straight cut and paste code system, were you can add your own functions and sounds (and hopefully RGB LED colors) by copying the code from the tutorial and uploading it to the board. I hope this isn't to hard for beginners.

As you said I will be working through this in stages, first of all getting the SD card sounds to play on start up, momentary switch pressed (for any given period of time) (the board already powered up) and then when released to play a repeated sound at idle. So on till I hit the task of decoding the analog signal from the accelerometer, using the varying pitch to differ a clash from a swing.

I realise this will not be a quick and easy project, but I think it will be some fun and at the end I hope to at least have created a working prototype. Somthing that someone can make user friendly and available to lightsaber wilding community.

[Darth Magnus.]

Ok guys, I have a few new question for everyone.

How important is sound?

and

How loud dose the sound have to be?

I'm debating the idea of adding an audio amplifier to my sound board, the cost of adding an amp will only be minor (about $5 if that).
The amp will not increase sound quality, just make everything louder.

On a side note I have the final sizes for the board, 26mm x 65mm or a little over 1inch x inches. I will hopefully get it smaller with some experimenting.

So what do you think, how important is sound?

What do you think about the size of it?

[xl97]

if its a 'soundboard'.. then Id say/think 'sound' is fairly important! no?

otherwise.. what are you doing? just making an LED driver? (there are tons out there alrerady?)

Not sure why your asking? I thought this was all taken care of, with code and examples posted on the net?

Also.. I can say that over 1.0" in. in width is a no-no... most people want/need under 1.0" in. now... alot of customs and conversions have inner/core tubes around 1.0" in. ID

(needs to be able to fit in them)

I would think any/all boards need an amp for the sound...? like an LM386 or something..

[Silver Serpent]

Size doesn't look bad. You want it to be able to fit inside MHS pieces easily. As for sound, the volume depends on a number of factors. Do you just want to use it indoors in a quiet area, or in the lobby of a crowded sci-fi convention? Also remember that the volume of your speaker sitting on the bench will not compare to the volume once you've installed it in a hilt with proper resonance.

I don't know the specs on the TCSS premium speaker, but if you're driving that properly, you should have plenty of volume.

[Darth Magnus.]

Ok I will add an audio amp, and that is a good point on size. It is just on 1" at the moment, that is the width of the micro SD card break out board I'm using. Once I have my first board 100% operational I will look at ways to reduce the size.

The reason I'm still asking questions is to keep people involved in the thread. Otherwise who am I building the sound board for? just myself?
I obviously worded my question wrong, The question I was trying to get across what how loud should the board be?
If I wanted I could produce a board with 5.1 surround sound but if people don't want a feature like that it would be totally pointless and a waste of money
Thats why I'm asking people, what do you wan't? how much should it cost?

[xl97]

I dont think anyone is using surround sound speakers.. so you answered your own question there.

you need an amp because the speakers use do not have them included.

and if you are talking about sizes on your DEV board.. its a bit ..umm.. premature I guess?

using breakout boards for the SD socket..and other components is FINE for prototyping and developing your board.. but IMHO have no place in a finished product.. (and hence no bearing on size at the moment)

I think you should do the following.. THEN report back for features.. (when you are ready).. you are far away form taking any requests IMHO..

I would first get a demo working of JUST playing a .wav file from an SD card.. with a simple button press.

you get to that point.. your doing good.

post a video too..

[Darth Magnus.]

Cool :p
I already have the board playing .wav from the SD on one for the pwm outs of the Arduino, the only problem is that the pwm out is limited to 5v 40mA max. Thats why I was asking about the amp (which I'm defiantly adding now).

I know its a little premature asking questions about what people wan't on the finished product but while I'm waiting for the rest of the parts to get here (postal service is on strike over here) I'm working on the code.

If you want I have a crude but to scale render of what me development board will look like ?

[Orthus]

Okay, I, like xl97, have done much of this. The lm386 audio amp works well and gives decently loud sound. I used the accelerometer to Doppler shift the sounds but the results were somewhat mixed. I used a BuckPuck w/control to drive a Luxeon/Seoul and had a really nice power-up power-down effect. I used high magnitude accel to trigger clash and had a blade flicker. If I added an SD shield and SD card, I was approaching the price of a crystal focus in a significantly larger form factor. I'm a hacker, so I liked tackling this project, but be forewarned, either keep it simple and cheap or go overboard and expensive. The middle ground is a soundboard wasteland. Tim's swing and clash sensors are mucho cheaper than the accelerometer. Including the sounds in the Arduino code is practical with the 328-based AtMega's and an 8k sampling rate, so no SD card. PWM through the lm386 gets you decent sound. With a BuckPuck and an LED, this adds up to $30-$40.

[Darth Magnus.]

Thanks for the advice, I have quickly realized that you can spend money real quick on a project like this. I'm starting to realize for the price the Petit Crouton is hard to beat. Even if I produce a working sound board, with the time I've spent developing it as a factor, the cost of the board would be close on the $100 mark.

The aim of this project was to produce a sound board to compete with the other cheap sound options like the Hasbro board. the time assembling the board and the high end components (accelerometer, Arduino etc) are the bulk of the cost, with out these i could easily keep the cost under $30

Maybe I should change the scope of this project?

If I were to aim it at the "hacker" community, the ones that like to tinker with high wattage LEDs, audio amps etc. Maybe I could put a package together with the PCB a basic audio amp (I went with a TDA2040. Vin, up to 20V), SD card holder(cheap and not to hard to configure and I could pre load sounds and functions) and RGB mixing hardware. Provide a tutorial with all the different code you need to get it working. Do you think people would be interested?

If I was only putting together just the basics it would be much cheaper. That way if someone wants mechanical switches over an acceleromter it would be cheaper or if you want to use a bare micro controller over an Arduino nano it would be cheaper again.
Would this be a good option?

[xl97]

I think what you propose is (alot) already post on the Arduino forums?

"I" personally like the idea of a generic platform..

(matter of fact I have a few demos I did and few more coming out)

example:
5905

and I have an RFX one in the works. (still) lol

I think if you spend the time working on a PCB. and just the components needed

adding in an led driver.. not to mention 3/4 to RGBA mixing... well costs go up..but more importantly..so does size (and by default usability then)



(vreg, amp/pot, resistors, caps, diodes.. sd socket, atmel) your price will be even cheaper.. and if you do in lots of min. 100 qty they will go down further.
development costs are always going to be more in price & time.. as well as using breakout boards and add-on shields..etc (which would never work in an end project)

I usually try to get components and breadboard it up..so I can 'transfer' the same layout/design to a PCB...

[Darth Magnus.]

All good ideas (and nice board), I will concentrate on getting what I have now working, post some pics (maybe a vid) of it. Then I will work on getting it on its own PCB.

I will wait and see if I can get any interest in the finished board before I start getting to excited

Also when do you think your projects will be finished :p

[xl97]

'my projects'?

no clue.. Im lazy.. (plus super busy.)

but I can tell yuo the RFX project is slated to be done 'first' (after that Arduino demo I posted)...

the Arduino project just needs to be converted to SMD chip/components..... an amp added and the uSD socket..

then I'll have a generic platform for whatever the end user likes to use it for.

they want to add sensors to it.. (great)... they want to add an LED driver to it.. (great)..

but the main 'brain' (platform) will be there and usable..


Im doing the same for the RFX chip (dead/defunct 'open source' API) as well...


and I know what your saying.. but your just going down the same path as others before you when you do this..

'creating hype' for a board that doesnt exist.


I understand you like to hear the feedback.. and the wishlists..and the...and the....etc..etc

but there is NO PRODUCT.. and all those posts really do nothing but talk... (and we've seen them again and again over the years) =(

the realty is, you 'should' know enough to make a version 1.0 of the board that YOU want..and the includes the features you know of

ramp up effect
ramp down effect
power on sound
idle hum
power down sound

clash event detection (accelerometer or regular clash sensor)
swing event detection (accelerometer or regular clash sensor)
clash sound (random from an array/list of clash sounds)
swing sound (random from an array/list of swing sounds)

maybe a blaster effect (button that plays static or random blaster sounds)


If what you say/your goal is true.. the hardware will be the same.. doesnt matter.

Its the code that will change the 'abilities' of the card..... so you could have version 1-100 if you want.. all on same hardware (more or less)
so DO SOMETHING.. put it out there.. 'then' take feedback about imporvements on a material object people can see/review.