CF with LEDENGIN 40w RGB?

[pointoforigin]

I have a CF yay! I'm planning now. I'm not sure if this has been done before, though it has been talked about.

After doing MUCH reading here and on FX, this looks correct to me:

http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy184/pointoforigin1/Lightsaber/cfwiring.png

But I am by no means an expert with anything to do with electronics.

Because CF can handle up to 11 volts, and the voltage requirement of the 40w green (the most voltage hungry) is 13.5@1A, power to the board must be regulated. Essentially I'm treating it like you would when using a cheap Hasbro board.

Potentially, the resistors could be swapped out for buckpucks or similar, with the potentiometers controlling them.

What I am not sure of is ... a few things actually hehe.

Number one, does my wiring look right?

Two, is a 9 volt regulator a good choice?

Three, are 15Kohm pots a good choice?

Four, am I missing anything? (Aside from the rest of the components like switches, speaker, accent LED's. These get wired to the CF as normal.)

[Sunrider]

Hey. I'm thinking of doing something similar. :) I don't know if that setup will work. I think its too much power for a kill key setup. The pots would have to be 10 watters to keep from burning up, and those are HUGE.

Some obstacles to overcome.
1. Batteries. If you want more than 15 min run time you 18650s or similar size.
2. VF for blue & green are 12v. 3 li ions will have a end of charge voltage of 7.3v. Not enough!
3. Heat... Extra cooling necessary.;)
4. Optics... and the star is a 28mm not 20!!! :eek:
5. Something is needed to switch all that power and were running out of room!

Hmmmmmm....

[Skottsaber]

The switches surely wouldn't have to be very highly rated, because they are still using the small signal from the board.
Also, I would suggest some form of heatsinking for the power extender running the main LED. With extended use those small FET packages can generate a reasonable amount of heat.
Either that or use a larger package MOSFET rated for more power, and with a heatsink on the back like your regulator has.

The wiring looks alright though :mrgreen:

[Sunrider]

Yeah. I'm not sure the PE can handle all that Powah. I don't think the recharge port will last very long with all the power going through it ether. Instead of 15k pots 10 or 100 ohm will give you more adjustment. I am looking at a regulators in the 8v range myself. And the wiring could work.

[pointoforigin]

Cool. So I am on the right path, at least, that's good to hear.

Battery wise, I was going for 4x 18650s. Pretty sure they will handle it no probs.
The cooling - I was intending to run a fan like you would an on indicator LED, that is when the kill key is pulled, the fan goes on. So even when you turn the blade off, the fan is still going, cycling the air.
Optics will be fun. I'm quite aware of the difference in size of the star ;) I think it was your thread I was reading on the subject, Sunrider. Finding one that covers the dome of the LED and spreads the light properly will be interesting.

So possibly use a high rated toggle switch instead of a kill key to handle the power? And a more powerful version of the PEX, with some kind of heatsink solution. Mounting it within the airflow of the fan should help also.

I'm slowly building this up as a 3d model to make sure all the parts fit in a hilt before buying them. The only parts I have at present are the CF, one PEX and a speaker :P This all SHOULD be able to fit within 12 inches of space. It does so far.

[thejedilestat]

WOW.... :confused: way over my head all this talk = something cool =P

good luck

[Sunrider]

Yes. 4 18650s will be plenty of power. But fitting them in a 12 in hilt with all the other stuff will be a challenge. :eek: I was thinking I would try to get away with using 3. I think the star can be ground down to 20mm to fit into a MHS BH. Fans draw enough power that they need regulators or battery voltage. I would use a real switch rated at a few amps. Recharge ports are not as good beyond a couple amps. MTFBWY :)

[pointoforigin]

The problem with three is you only get 11.1 volts... with the green die running at 13.5, it's not hitting full potential. It would probably light up, and there would be a significant amount more room in the hilt with only three, but the ideal way is with four. I'll probably run some bench tests with both three and four to see how significant the difference is before committing to that hilt design to house them. I've toyed with designs that go for either way.

A regulator for the fan is a given. I was toying with the idea of running it off the 3.3v pad on the CF, but am not sure if that would give it enough juice. If not, a seperate regulator would be needed - or it could be run in paralell to the CF board, taking directly from the pos and neg battery pads that would already be regulated. A lot of costumers use 12v fans at 9v with no issue, just a slightly slower fan.

Can anybody tell me the inner diameter of the new style heatsink, the aluminium part just after the threads, not the blade side? From the images it looks to be around 25mm, but I don't have one on hand to confirm. This would tell me how much the LED star needs to be ground down. I'm not sure it can go as far as 20mm - I think that would destroy the solder pads.

[Sunrider]

I think I will have to grind the star down to 20mm to fit. The big pads will be lost but I think I can work with what is left. If not it's time to make a PCB. I'm gonna go for purple with 3 series parallel sets for 7v each at 3amps and the rest for flash.

[pointoforigin]

Not ambitious enough! Mine will be a colour changer ;)

I do suspect you might geterdun before me though. You may have slightly more experience with this kind of thing hehe.

[thejedilestat]

24mm ID of the aluminium part for the heatsink i think im eyeballing it with a ruler

[pointoforigin]

Excellent, thankyou. I'd need precise measurements though. I'm putting in an order soon at any rate, so I'll find out then.

[Darth Magnus.]

Just looked at the pdf for this led its a min of 14.7 for the green. From my experience if you really want bright I would be looking at getting closer to that 20v it is capable of taking.

[pointoforigin]

Where are you getting 14.7 from? The PDF I'm reading (titled LZC-00MD40.pdf) says at 1A the green needs an average of 13.5v. Are you perhaps looking at the PDF for the green only, rather than the RGBW?

[thejedilestat]

so wearing a welding helmit is a must when you use this saber =P


alot of Australiasns around here now a days :cool:

[Darth Magnus.]

Might of got it wrong :S
http://www.ledengin.com/files/dist/40wLZ/LZC-00MC40.pdf

[pointoforigin]

Ah. That's the plain RGB, not the RGBW. Four die for each colour not three!

[Darth Magnus.]

Cool, sorry for that just read your title and amused it was the RGB.

[pointoforigin]

That would be my bad :P

I can't imagine that the plain RGB would be useable in a saber. You would need another two cells, and four 18650's is pushing it already. Six would be... enormous. No room for anything else, and already longer than 12".

[Darth Magnus.]

Haha it's cool. Ill have a look out for batteries that can produce a 11-15v battery pack.

[Don Se Wion]

Had a look at the diagram and I think you need to replace at least the Power Xtender going to the RGB dies with an high power MOSFET.
I guess at full power the 3 colors will drain around 3A from the battery and the specifications for the Power Xtender report 12V/1.5A.
Probably mixing the colors you will not reach the 3A limit, but you will most likely have a steady current around 2A running through the LEDs and I bet the Power Xtender won't last very long.

[pointoforigin]

Magnus, You need to take that link off dude, Tim sells 18650's in the store. It's not allowed to post links to other places that sell the same products.

18650's are what I'm looking at yes, but four of them to reach 14.8V.

Don, thanks for that. I had not yet looked up the specs on the PEX. I'm thinking at the moment of using a buck driver on each channel that has a PWM input and a ref/ctl like the 6 wire pucks in the store. The PWM input would negate the need for a PEX to get the effects, and the fact that they're drivers would negate the need for resistors. If that makes any kind of sense.

[Darth Magnus.]

Ok will do, not 100% up with all the products on this site.

[Skottsaber]

The power extender specs may be outdated, because people regularly draw 2A+ from them, so the FET is capable.
I wouldn't go over 2.5 though. You may want to ask Erv' if he can make you a "double" Power Extender, which allows for twice the current than a normal one.

[pointoforigin]

Ahah, that is an excellent idea. I've seen him offer this to others in the past.

Would that technically just be two stacked on top of each other? So if I got two extra and bridged the same wires to the same points on both it would have that effect?

[Skottsaber]

Pretty much yeah. But I would recommend desoldering the 10k resistor on one of them. Erv' actually just stacks the FETs, not adding another resistor IIRC.

[Natesroom]

is there info on this site detailing what a power extender is and how they used it in their build?

Also why 18650? why cant you go with a 25500? Is that because the size of one of those vs having x2 18650 isn't a good tradeoff?

[pointoforigin]

http://www.plecterlabs.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=131

You'll find instructions on its use in the Crystal Focus or Blastercore manual. There may be some info in the Crystal Focus sub board of the Sound board on here, but reading the CF manual is the quickest way to understand what it is and what it does.

[Natesroom]

ok thnaks

Also why 18650? why cant you go with a 25500? Is that because the size of one of those vs having x2 18650 isn't a good tradeoff?

[pointoforigin]

For starters, four cells are required to bring the voltage up to 14.8V. 18650's are the most efficient capacity per size, meaning run times will be the best. They also output enough current for the application.

Using 25500's would mean a full 20cm of hilt space would be taken up by batteries, with no chance of stacking electronics on the sides. This leaves 10cm for a soundboard, three pots, a fan, a heatsink, a bladeholder, two switches, 7 accent LED's, two power extenders, a kill switch and a recharge port. While I'm sure someone like LDM might be able to pull that off, I wouldn't. 18650's make sense.

[Natesroom]

For starters, four cells are required to bring the voltage up to 14.8V. 18650's are the most efficient capacity per size, meaning run times will be the best. They also output enough current for the application.

Using 25500's would mean a full 20cm of hilt space would be taken up by batteries, with no chance of stacking electronics on the sides. This leaves 10cm for a soundboard, three pots, a fan, a heatsink, a bladeholder, two switches, 7 accent LED's, two power extenders, a kill switch and a recharge port. While I'm sure someone like LDM might be able to pull that off, I wouldn't. 18650's make sense.

yeah that's what i though as i was looking at the difference and since everyone else is using the 18650... i was wondering if the tradeoff was even worth it but in our application the size is what is precious

[pointoforigin]

For those interested, here's some basic layout shots of my 3D model, just to prove that the parts fit ;)

http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy184/pointoforigin1/Lightsaber/Screenshot2011-09-09at32322AM.png

http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy184/pointoforigin1/Lightsaber/Screenshot2011-09-09at32404AM.png

By my calculations, there could even be room for a crystal chamber.

I'm not 100% on the pots pictured, they stick out too far for one. One thing I've found with 3D modelling, you can draw it any way you want. Actually building it like that takes a bit more effort. But it's a good planning tool.

I'm using the MHS sleeve as part of the structure of the hilt, not just aesthetics. The normal MHS outer diameter is about the same as two 18650's side by side, which means they fit in the sleeve just fine.

[Natesroom]

What program are you using for that? SketchUp?

I really...really love those Pots sticking out like that its not like anyone else.. .and the PLI going up in the slot of the shroud is awesome

[Sunrider]

Nice illustration. If you really want to try to use pots I think you need to check part sizes. Each one will need to handle 10w. I have never seen any near that small. And be prepared for a bit of work to get those batteries in there without weakening the body too much. :o

[pointoforigin]

Yep, I use Sketchup.

Would I still need 10w capable pots if I were using 6 wire buckpucks with the pots wired into the ref and ctrl?

[Sunrider]

Oh. Oops. Was that your plan? Small pots can be used with the drivers yes. I don't know what value though.

Oh, and the heat sink would need some fins for the air to flow through.

[pointoforigin]

Right, excellent. That should save some space. I'll look up the spec sheets for the buckpucks to find out the right pot to use.

I was planning to mod the heatsink yes, in the spirit of what you've shown us in the past ;)

[Skottsaber]

I think for buckpucks you use attach your positive to ref and the pot's wiper to the ctrl.

[pointoforigin]

Thanks, Skott. The datasheet on the buckpucks says to use a 5k linear pot, and the current on it is 5mA so no worries there. A small 9mm pot will do the job nicely, and leave plenty of space in the hilt.

http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy184/pointoforigin1/Lightsaber/cfwiring1.png

Slightly messy diagram, but I think I got it right. I've drawn this up with completely separate anode and cathode on the LED, would it work with common anode or common cathode to reduce wiring? Or would the buckpucks disagree with that?

I'm now wondering about wire - will 26 gauge wire carry all that current? I imagine not. Heavier gauge required?

[Skottsaber]

If your fan wants 12v then why is it after the voltage regulator?

[pointoforigin]

I put it there because I figured it'd be safer to run it off 9v than 14.8v. I have seen lots of 12v fans run off 9v before with no issue. Also Sunrider said before that the fan would need regulating because they are power hungry.

Would it be infinitely better to run a 5v regulator also, and use a 5v fan?

Or try to run a 5v fan from the "always on" accent LED pad on the CF (The one on the top of the board, near the FoC pad) or would that not supply enough current? 18 mA is not much, I realise.

[Skottsaber]

That pad isn't an accent LED pad. That taps into the direct 3.3v line from the regulator.
I don't think you'd run into too many issues running the fan from the regulator, except that you are going to need to look for a package that can have lots of current drawn from it, at least 2A.

[pointoforigin]

How's this one? http://www.x-on.com.au/details-new.asp?i=201561&t=1&p=L78S09CV

9V 2A

I couldn't find one with a higher current rating at that voltage.

By the way, thanks everyone for all the help here, especially Skott and Sunrider. I feel like I'm asking a lot of noob questions, and you guys are firing back answers that make heaps of sense to me. I appreciate it a lot.

[Sunrider]

The CF in this config should only draw about .5 amps and the fan .2 maybe. So a 1 amp part should be enough. I would look for a very low dropout regulator and don't forget to add the filtering caps shown in the datasheet diagrams. And for the main switch It is easier to have it break the positive wire only. 26 guage will work except for the pucks pos & neg back to the battery. The rest have 1 amp or less.