Air cooled SSR90 with crystal chamber

[Sunrider]

After an epic failure at an attempt to obtain a CF5 I shall attempt to redeem myself by posting what I have learned about the high power SSR90 LED.

After getting my green SSR90 I found that the sweet spot for lumens vs current was about 4.5 to 5 amps. With the normal heat sink the blade holder would reach an uncomfortable 32C in 3 or 4 minutes. So the air cooling began.

After a failed attempt at adding fins to a mhs heat sink I successfully did just that & came up with this

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4045/4627609378_bb316ab335.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4045/4627609378_bb316ab335_b.jpg)

Also a small fan and vents were needed so it ended up like this.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3361/4627612270_bcd5d3601a.jpg (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3361/4627612270_bcd5d3601a_b.jpg)

It turns out the air cooling setup works well with my crystal chamber. Air goes in the big holes & out the small holes.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4045/4627004345_e86efa7918.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4045/4627004345_e86efa7918_b.jpg)

I also tried a number of plastic lenses & aluminum reflectors. The best thing I found to focus the light was a narrow aluminum reflector from a led flash light I had that was the right size & depth. I ended up having to drop the reflector down through the top of the blade holder & jb welding it. This is also good to keep the reflector from hitting the led dome.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4065/4627613910_e746e2a44c_z.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4031/4627006927_443515a669_b.jpg)

Pics of finished crystal chamber.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4055/4627610222_73f1c3913f.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4055/4627610222_73f1c3913f_b.jpg)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4014/4627004883_7a94f46fea.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4014/4627004883_7a94f46fea_b.jpg)

Pics of green laser.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4054/4627012049_d5f3872246.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4054/4627012049_d5f3872246_b.jpg)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4071/4627618982_a71e0f5490.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4071/4627618982_a71e0f5490_b.jpg)

Now for the power up stuff.

All the light output measurements were made with my simple analog light meter. With no reflector the led output is as on the spec sheet measuring about 1300 lumens at 4.6 amps.

I was impressed to find that with a good reflector (and positioning is very important just as with lenses) the output reached 5000 lumens straight out of the blade holder!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4045/4627616174_8326f14d5a.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4045/4627616174_8326f14d5a_b.jpg)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4069/4627615594_2f2718169e.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4069/4627615594_2f2718169e_b.jpg)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3315/4627617348_e9f5e307e7.jpg (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3315/4627617348_e9f5e307e7_b.jpg)

Keep in mind the lights & tv are on it is daytime & the window is open!

Chamber

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/4627008485_c825989028.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/4627008485_c825989028_b.jpg)

Now heat is still an issue but this setup will run for about 12 minutes before getting too warm but when blade effects are added it should go a little longer. :)

[slothfurnace]

Now THAT is impressive!

Props to you, my friend. That thing looks awesome!

[ARKM]

Very cool (and bright) saber. I'm also digging the crystal chamber.

[DJMoonbass]

SABERS!!!! WITH FRIGGIN LASERBEAMS ATTACHED TO THERE FRIGGIN CHAMBERS!!!

dude awesome. man i just love green lasers. i recently just bought a pair of Venue DMX 10mW green laser lights for my DJ set up. they are so awesome. what mW is your laser youre using? man i cant wait to see this thing lit up. this will be the brightest saber in SABER HISTORY!

[Sunrider]

The laser is putting out about 25mw I think. I don't have anything to measure it. I'm not using the original driver.

[cannibal869]

WOW... I mean... wow... picking jaw up off the ground...wow..

[Rafalema]

Now THAT is awesome! That will make super bright saber.

[Invisas1979]

Just out of pure curiosity. Why would you want an led so powerful it needs a heatsink with fins and a fan...... to make it last a whole 12 minutes?

That is mind boggling.

Cudos to the work but that seems like a whole load of effort.

[Shadar Al'Niende]

I wanna see it with a blade on it.....:cool:

[Sunrider]

Just out of pure curiosity. Why would you want an led so powerful it needs a heatsink with fins and a fan...... to make it last a whole 12 minutes?


I like lumens & want a bright blade, chamber, blinky ect. Call me obsessed if you want. I guess I'm trying to make a unique saber that reflects what I like. Maybe I like a challenge, or maybe I'm a glutton for punishment. I don't know which.;) Yes it's true I have at least 30hrs of failed attempts at parts & have spent over 100hrs on this saber so far. This bothers me not because I like what I have done & believe it or not working on my saber is therapeutic for me.

Oh & it's not like it runs for 10 minutes & it's dead. The battery pack will run it for an hour it just needs to cool off for a minute now & then.;)

[Shadar Al'Niende]

And my biggest thought on why to attempt this, is because it furthers the knowledge of the hobby and brings us new and innovative tech. Things that will most likely become common in the future... keep it up Sunrider, we watch with interest ;)

[xl97]

Art, develpoment and curiosity doesnt 'need' to abide by rules...

This isnt somethign for 'everyone' or a mainstream product/approach...

this is one guy pursuing his ideas and posting the results! (KUDOS!)..

will it lead to something one day? who knows.. (who cares)..

he took the time AWAY from the forum & shoutbox &FX Sabers being down..and PRODUCED SOMETHING TANGIBLE... and shared with us!

I think you should get a real crustal in there instead of a sphere.. (but thats just opinion of course) ;)

[FenderBender]

Interesting on the heat. So far I have only had mine up to 2A and it doesn't even get warm. Even at two amps it's brighter than any LEDengin 5W or LUX V green I've seen. Hell, at 1A it's brighter than a P4 and LEDengine 5W, but that's an expensive alternative to those two if you can only run it at 1A:D Good job Sunrider, look forward to seeing it with a blade and finished:D

[Sunrider]

Thanks for the positive responses guys. It shouldn't be too long before it's completed & I will do some comparisons.

[Sloda Foade]

Wow, Next step a REAL lightsaber. Hmmm might have to use liquid nitrogen to keep it cool :)

[Darth Leximus]

Not to mention the added effects nitrogen would add.

Hats off to you sir for a lot of hard work, nevermind whether or not it was worth it in the end. Very seldomly are my sabers ever lit for longer than 12 minutes at a time, but I'm no Novastar.

I too would like to see what this looks like with a blade attached.

[Skottsaber]

This is the next step to real lightaber blades. My hat would be off (If I wore one). :mrgreen:

[Jedi-Loreen]

My would be off (If I wore one). :mrgreen:
LOL, wut? :confused:

[Sunrider]

LOL J Lo are you doing one of those replace the word in the sentence games again!;)

[Matt Thorn]

Am I the only one who is as impressed by the machined emitter and crystal chamber as by the LED and cooling system? Is that all original, or have you modified MHS parts to the point where they are unrecognizable? Either way, gorgeous work. I was considering using a mineral sphere of some variety (maybe kunzite) in the saber I'm working on with Blue Fox, but I gave up on it. That is some kind of quartz, is it not?

What is your battery set-up? I set aside my green 10-Watt LedEngin because of the massive forward voltage requirements, as well as the heat issue, which I was too lazy to try to address.

I believe the missing word is "hat," J-Lo. I do have a hat, and it is off to sunrider for this one. Can't wait to see it develop.

[Sunrider]

Thanks again guys. The parts with the with the holes are mhs parts. No machining tho. Hand drill, rotary tool & files are all I have. I have new respect for what machines can do now.:) Much can be done without machines, but you can only file till your hands are worn out.

[Matt Thorn]

Thanks again guys. The parts with the with the holes are mhs parts. No machining tho. Hand drill, rotary tool & files are all I have. I have new respect for what machines can do now.:) Much can be done without machines, but you can only file till your hands are worn out.
Would you mind posting a list of the MHS parts you used? I honestly can't figure out what I'm looking at. The bottom-most part is obviously wider than the rest, but I don't recognize it.

[Sunrider]

The blade holder is #13 then 2 in dbl female extension, then dbl male with slots (thanks for making this part extra thick Stryder), then custom made 1.5 in I.D. adapters & tube section. Not TCSS:(

Oh & the setup will run on 4 18650s dbl barrel that give me 7.5 amps at 7.4 volts for 1hr.

[Matt Thorn]

The blade holder is #13 then 2 in dbl female extension, then dbl male with slots (thanks for making this part extra thick Stryder), then custom made 1.5 in I.D. adapters & tube section. Not TCSS:(

Oh & the setup will run on 4 18650s dbl barrel that give me 7.5 amps at 7.4 volts for 1hr.
Thanks, Sunrider. Are the custom pieces threaded to match the MHS threads? If so, wow, how did you match that? I thought the MHS thread was as secret as the Colonel's recipe. ;)

[Vlad Doon]

Oh my god, you're going to need sunglasses when you put a blade in it !!!

I'm interested to know more about these leds

[Caden]

The fan is a genius way to cool it. Quite honestly, that is the most hardcore setup for cooling I've seen in a saber in a long time.

Kudos. Maaaanny kudos.

[Sunrider]

"The fan is a genius way to cool it. Quite honestly, that is the most hardcore setup for cooling I've seen in a saber in a long time."

Thanks Caden The setup is simple in principle but I must say soldering the 8 heat sink fin parts together at the same time was quite the balancing act. Like juggling red hot copper.:eek: Several attempts were made before I got one together right.

[Obi-Ben]

I want to see if it melts the blade!

[Matth Jedi]

Can you look at the blade in daytime?
Man this is SOOOOOO cool.
I'm a brightness Junky, and I love it.

[Sunrider]

Ouch I think I just got my butt kicked by gift wrap. Getting the stuff in the tube just right is an art to be sure.

Not unbelievable results from the completed blade but it is a couple steps up from my MR Luke ROTJ with new batteries.

Lights on

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4065/4670877654_a04bae1680.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4065/4670877654_a04bae1680_b.jpg)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4017/4670876134_48b39cc089.jpg
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4017/4670876134_48b39cc089_b.jpg)

Lights off

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4006/4670250379_a3d1e12561.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4006/4670250379_a3d1e12561_b.jpg)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4670876684_83a00ba824.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4670876684_83a00ba824_b.jpg)

Blade effects are on so the blade may be flickering when pic was taken.;)

That's about as uniform as I can seem to get the blade. it has 7 feet of cellophane in it. If an optic that could fit in the hilt could be found it could be better but the reflector works ok.

Parts to get this setup running are about a hundred bucks but they are out there to be had.

Luv your lumenz

SR

[DJMoonbass]

dude get an 8.7 degree lense in there and youll be seeing a huge green streak in your vision for DAYS! this thing is sick. how come the lenses wont fit?

[Skottsaber]

You mentioned blade effects. What board are you using for this one?

[Matth Jedi]

Man what a differense.
I'll take the room is hot quickly by turning that saber on.
I'm really impressed.

[Sunrider]

dude get an 8.7 degree lense in there and youll be seeing a huge green streak in your vision for DAYS! this thing is sick. how come the lenses wont fit?

If you look at the shot I took down the blade holder you can see that the dome on the SSR 90 is big. It's way too big for normal lenses to fit over. Lenses that are made for the seoul P7's large dome don't quite fit ether.

There are a couple out there that are made to fit the SSR 90 but they are not very narrow and are 30 x 30mm. Too big to fit even with modifications.


You mentioned blade effects. What board are you using for this one?

I am using Tim's add on board with a 6.6 amp buck driver made by the same guy that makes the add on board & some of the other stuff for Tim.

The boards work well together. The setup is adjustable from 1500 to 6000ma with ramp up & down flicker & clash flash circuit.:D

[Shadar Al'Niende]

*Drools*

[Sunrider]

If anyone wanted to know what reflector I modified for this setup. It came out of one of these flashlights.

http://www.inovalight.com/bolt/bolt_2a.php

[Matt Thorn]

If anyone wanted to know what reflector I modified for this setup. It came out of one of these flashlights.

http://www.inovalight.com/bolt/bolt_2a.php
Thanks. I did want to know, actually, since I've never come across a non-plastic flashlight reflector.

[Sunrider]

Here is some info on the buck driver used in this setup.

I spent days searching the internet for a good buck driver that could drive the SSR90 to its potential. In the end I ended up where I started with the drivers here at TCSS!

This is the H6CC it is an adjustable driver to 6 amps.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4019/4719715836_b133e802c5.jpg


This thing is a little bigger than your normal driver & needs a good size heat sink at the higher drive levels. Here is mine.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4026/4719068195_2e58e5b3c3.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4026/4719068195_2e58e5b3c3_b.jpg)

This driver with the add on board (D2Flex v3.0) here at the shop make up the SSR90 drive section.

This setup could be run by 2 18650s but a full setup (w sound) would only run for about 25 minutes.

[Matt Thorn]

Sunrider, I see you are using a Sunon fan. Could you tell me the model number? Since it seems to be a pretty snug fit, I'm guessing it's one of their 25mm x 25mm models.

[Darth Xusia]

What batteries are you planning on using that can handle a 6A draw?

[Sunrider]

Sunrider, I see you are using a Sunon fan. Could you tell me the model number? Since it seems to be a pretty snug fit, I'm guessing it's one of their 25mm x 25mm models.

The fan is better than I hoped to find. The mag lev vapo bearing can take some punishment. This is a 12v fan but will run on 4.5v. It moves a good amount of air & doesn't make much noise. One thing you do have to watch with these is do not block the intake or it will rev up & it won't move air.

It is a 25 x 25 x 10mm fan model GM1202PFV1-8

It just fits in MHS tube. It works best if the gaps around the edges of the square are sealed.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1314/4722067863_1608e4e88e.jpg (http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1314/4722067863_1608e4e88e_b.jpg)





What batteries are you planning on using that can handle a 6A draw?

Here is the pack I am using. It is 4 18650s

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1043/4722721004_19624df5c4.jpg (http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1043/4722721004_19624df5c4_b.jpg)

The load of the led at 3.7v 5 amps only pulls about 3 amps from the 7.4v pack. As I stated earlier you could run this setup with sound with 2 18650s. You don't have to use a pack as big as mine.

[Darth Xusia]

Ah... I see. I must've misread you saying it would be running at 6A.
I can't wait to see this thing in action and some comparison vids.

[Matt Thorn]

Ah... I see. I must've misread you saying it would be running at 6A.
I can't wait to see this thing in action and some comparison vids.
The SSR-90 runs at either 3.15 Amps or 6.3 Amps. But even at 3.15 Amps, it is way bright. The "U" bin of LedEngin's 10-Watt LZ4-00G110 claims a Luminous Flux of 955 while running at 1500mA, and that's the brightest of their 10-Watt greens. The SSR-90 claims a luminous flux of 950 at 3.15 Amps, and a mind-boggling 1659 at 6.3 Amps.

What's striking to me is that the 10-Watt LedEngins have "ordinary" forward current demands (700 - 1500 mA), but off-the-chart forward voltage demands (14.72 - 20.48 Volts); whereas the PhlatLight SSR-90s have extremely modest forward voltage demands (3.4 - 3.7 Volts), but wild forward current demands (3.15 - 6.3 Amps).

But at this point, in terms of brightness, PhlatLight phlat-out beats the competition.
....

Sorry. Couldn't resist. :oops:

I wonder if the H6CC LED driver would work with a LedEngin 10-Watt? :-?

Thanks for the info about the fan, Sunrider.

[Rhyen Skytracker]

When the LEDs require a higher voltage and a normal current it means the dice are wired in series (requiring a higher voltage) and when they require a ton of current it means the dice are wired in parallel (requiring a higher current). When you have multiple dice that means you would treat them as individual LEDs and either wire them in series or parallel or a combination of both. I have seen 4 die LEDs that are wired in series parallel too.

[Sunrider]

The Led Engin 10w is similar in power consumption to the SSR90. The upper current limit for it is 6 amps (4 dies x 1500ma) all in parallel. Heat production is also similar at 6 amps. Price is very close too. But light output is far superior with the SSR90 giving 1600 lumens at 6 amps. :eek: If you can find a bin U 10 watt (I coudn't) you would get 900 lumens but the more common bins would be more like 800 lumens.

The color is closer to the movie color green too with the SSR90. The 10w is a little darker.

Both of them really start producing heat after the 5 amp mark.

[Matt Thorn]

When the LEDs require a higher voltage and a normal current it means the dice are wired in series (requiring a higher voltage) and when they require a ton of current it means the dice are wired in parallel (requiring a higher current). When you have multiple dice that means you would treat them as individual LEDs and either wire them in series or parallel or a combination of both. I have seen 4 die LEDs that are wired in series parallel too.
That's one of those really basic rules I seem unable to keep from falling out of my brain. :p

The Led Engin 10w is similar in power consumption to the SSR90. The upper current limit for it is 6 amps (4 dies x 1500ma) all in parallel.
See? I hadn't thought of it that way. If I only had a brain.
http://poietes.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/if-i-only-had-a-brain.gif

Heat production is also similar at 6 amps.
<snip>
Both of them really start producing heat after the 5 amp mark.
I can vouch for that. Using a basic MHS heatsink and blade holder, the 10-watt LedEngin got too hot to handle after about 5 minutes.

[Sunrider]

I was wondering how the Led engin 10w would compare to the SSR90 so I ran a comparison between the SSR90 setup & a green Ledingin 10w.

All tests were run with the leds running at 6 amps. All the dies for the Ledengin were wired in parallel to keep the setup the same.

With the meter 4 inches away from domes.

Lumens
SSR90 1400
10w 800


With the meter 8 inches away from the end of the optic (or reflector).

Lumens
SSR90 3400
10w 1600 with Ledil MCE 10 degree
10w 1800 with rebel 8.5 degree from store
10w 1400 with 5 degree from store

None of the lenses worked great with the 10w. There still doesn't seem to be a 20mm optic that fits the 10w. :(

I think I'll try a reflector on the 10w! It could be better than the available lenses.

[Matt Thorn]

Thanks for the data, Sunrider. I'm a bit surprised by the seemingly counterintuitive results of the different lenses with the LedEngin. You would think the 5º would produce the best results. And I would think the dome on the LedEngins would be way too big for the Rebel lenses. I have always used the 5º lenses from the store with my LedEngin RGGBs and RGBAs, which have the same dome size and optic configuration.

[Sunrider]

The rebel lens did fit over the dome but the inner lens was useless. The outer part of the lens however was great at refracting.

When used with the Rebel it is the opposite. The inside lens is dominant and light is more focused. Very tightly I might add.

[Sunrider]

I carved up a reflector for the 10w

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4142/4858977774_94c4afc71e_z.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4142/4858977774_94c4afc71e_b.jpg)

With the meter 8 inches away from the end of the optic (or reflector).

Lumens
SSR90 3400
10w 1600 with Ledil MCE 10 degree
10w 1800 with rebel 8.5 degree from store
10w 1400 with 5 degree from store
10w 2100 with reflector!

It looks like good reflector isn't so bad. The pattern looked pretty good too.

Also I did a comparison between a green rebel at 1200ma & the SSR 90.


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4075/4858977024_6b63a24370_z.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4075/4858977024_6b63a24370_b.jpg)

You can see that the 8.7 degree lens makes a very tight pattern with the rebel & makes a bright little spot on the wall.

When I put my fingers near the optics I feel nothing with the rebel but I can only hold my fingers near the SSR90 for a few seconds.

[Matth Jedi]

Is this result the same when the LED's are driffen by a CF board?

There is a red saber coming for me.
Are those SST90's also in Red?
I did ask for a LedEngine 10W, Maybe I have to change that.

[Rafalema]

I do not believe that a CF can handle/give your LED 6 amps.

And secondly, it's SSR90 not SST90

[Crystal Chambers]

Since this is still being tested I'd consider that maybe no one else would want to try an LED that is so hot.

A comparison to a 10w ledengine might be a better comparison. Rebels are ok but not the brightest available to the average sabersmith.

[Skottsaber]

And also the issue of having to create a heatsink for the SSR90 would hinder its common usage.

[Sunrider]

Is this result the same when the LED's are driffen by a CF board?

These last tests were ran at 6 amps. The CF5 can only pull 2 amps.


Are those SST90's also in Red?

Yes but they are not worth using below 3 amp drive level.


I did ask for a LedEngine 10W, Maybe I have to change that.

For red the 10 watt is just as bright as the SSR90 at 2 amps & easier to install than the SSR90. Don't expect a saber smith to install a SSR90 for you.
There are only a couple of prototypes that have been done. This is not a (drop in) part.

If doing blue or green the SSR90 will be brighter than the 10 watt at 2 amps but again a reflector is more difficult to install.


Since this is still being tested I'd consider that maybe no one else would want to try an LED that is so hot.

The led only runs as hot as you want to push it.

At 2 amps the SSR90 will run cooler than the 10 watt btw.


A comparison to a 10w ledengine might be a better comparison. Rebels are ok but not the brightest available to the average sabersmith.

These numbers are a comparison between the SSR90 & the Ledengin 10w

With the meter 8 inches away from the end of the optic (or reflector).

Lumens
SSR90 3400
10w 1600 with Ledil MCE 10 degree
10w 1800 with rebel 8.5 degree from store
10w 1400 with 5 degree from store
10w 2100 with reflector!


And secondly, it's SSR90 not SST90

SST90 designates the led only. SSR90 designates led on 20mm star board.


And also the issue of having to create a heatsink for the SSR90 would hinder its common usage.

Lumen for lumen the SSR90 puts out more light AND LESS HEAT than a 10w when run below 4 amps.

In my tests I am pushing these leds to their MAXIMUM LIMITS. They can be run anywhere in between.

[Panzer]

Greetings from Russia!
Sunrider!
I see you experienced in electronics, so i need some help.
I will use ssr90 and ssc p7 leds in my next sabers.
What power source should I use to provide 4-5A with 2.2-4.5V ?
Thank you.

P.S. Sorry for bad english.

[Sunrider]

See page 4 and the rest of the thread too! All info needed for a setup is here.

[vctrsone]

thats not a saber! its a small portable toaster and instant tanning wand.


hahaha its looking really good tho..I love the heat sink you built.

[Natesroom]

hey sunrider all the photos you have here cant be displayed, i was wondering if you knew what happened?

[Sunrider]

I deleted a few of them to make room for others. My newer setups are better to look at for this kind of led setup. The data in this thread is still useful though. If you have a specific question or pic you want to see I should be able to add it here.

[Natesroom]

ok what is your newer setup thread listed as?

[Sunrider]

This saber is a refined version of the first setup.

http://forums.thecustomsabershop.com/showthread.php?12976-Sunrider-s-Praxis-Saber

[cooky069]

it would be so cool to see this developed in to an mhs compatible drop in unit. what a step forward in lighting our sabers that would be

[Darth Magnus.]

I'm not sure if this has been answered already but how did you mount the led. Was it soldered to a star or something?
Oh and what battery configuration did you use to get your current?

[Natesroom]

I'm not sure if this has been answered already but how did you mount the led. Was it soldered to a star or something?
Oh and what battery configuration did you use to get your current?

http://forums.thecustomsabershop.com/showthread.php?12976-Sunrider-s-Praxis-Saber

Its in there

[Sunrider]

it would be so cool to see this developed in to an mhs compatible drop in unit. what a step forward in lighting our sabers that would be

Because the hilt needs holes for air cooling, and the supporting components must handle more power than typical ones a hilt must be made to support all the unconventional parts.

Normal switches and kill keys, even pololu boards, ect. cannot be used reliably because the current involved.