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KuroChou
03-03-2010, 12:07 PM
I've been tossing around the idea, and I think I'll actually go for it sometime soon. Using a halogen lamp in place of an LED.

Of course this makes a lot of electronically damaging heat, and requires a ton of juice to work;
but for the sake of a high power proto-show-stunt capable of blinding in daylight, I want to try.

I was looking around for my exact power requirements, and how much light/heat would be generated, and I found my perfect candidate.
http://www.1000bulbs.com/MR8-Halogen-Light-Bulbs/7524/
# Manufacturer: Higuchi USA
# Manufacturer's Part #: MR-8510P
# Halogen MR8
# 20 Watt - 12 Volt
# Life Hours: 2,000
# Covered Glass Front
# 10 Degree Narrow Spot
# Height: 1.09 in - Width: 1 in.

That tells me what I need, but not how to get it..... this is where it gets expensive... but totally worth it in limited supply.
CR3032's.
they're now available in a high power 6V 560mAh lithium variety.... for $6 a pop....
I think I'll go disposable..... 3.2V 500-560mAh lithium @ $0.12 a pop from http://www.batteriesandbutter.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=CR2032GI&Category_Code=cn
The idea is to pack these as UBER C cells. 4 buttons to a battery, to make 12.8V and 2000mAh (2Ah) per $0.48 battery.
Assembled, each battery would have an OD of 30mm and a length of 12.8mm.
We need ten of them in parallel to power the lamp, making a battery chain 128mm (5.04in) long,
ultimately running 21,369 lumens at $5 per hour.
Sweet.

the only remaining issue is that these buggers get HOT!!!
I'll work that out later.

Sidd
03-03-2010, 12:25 PM
Liquid cooled lightsaber.


you can have a power supply and a pump for the coolant mounted on your hip and the power and coolant can be fed in a tube in your sleeve.

acerocket
03-03-2010, 12:28 PM
Curious. Where are you getting the number of lumens as 21369 lumens?

A typical 60 watt incandescent house light is only about 800 lumens (so google.com tells me). You are saying a 20 watt halogen is more than 25 times brighter?

I experimented with 12V halogen auto headlamps before. They really get hot and use a lot of juice. A 20 watt bulb at 12V is going to want about 1.7 amps of power. You chosen power pack might run it for about an hour if you are lucky. That's 5 dollars per hour.

If it were me, I'd go with 3 AW C cell li-ion protected cells. Thats only 11.1V nominal but 3300 mah rating in a 26mm diameter x 160mm long pack. Price is not cheap at 22 dollars each but you have a 70 dollar pack and if you figure another 30 for a charge, that will equal about 20 of your packs. Plus you have to factor in the time to make each one of your packs unless you can come up with a custom battery pack to make the changes easier.

I never went anywhere with my idea as the heat was a big problem. Good luck with your experiment. Maybe the smaller halogen lamps won't get as hot as the lights I used.

TroyO
03-03-2010, 12:34 PM
Why all the battery finegaling? 20w@12v means a 1.6A draw, right?

Throw one of these on it....

http://www.batteryspace.com/customizeli-ion18650battery148v2200mah3256wh.aspx

TroyO
03-03-2010, 12:39 PM
Ohh, and heat may not be the issue you think it is.... well, at least not on the electronics melting side.

My uderstanding is that incandescents throw their heat out the front, and LED throw it out the back (heatsink). You may find that melting the base of your blade is the heat problem, not frying the electronics.

acerocket
03-03-2010, 12:53 PM
Well you need a good connector for the Lamp also. There is a reason most halogen bulbs have ceramic heatsink/plugs on them. Go grab a halogen lamp after it' sbeen running for five minutes. Those things get real hot. The hilt will get hot, the base (lamp connector) will get hot, the blade will melt if too close to the lamp. Like I said, I already tried it a few years ago. I gave up because it was more problems than I wanted to try and solve.

I just want to know how he gets 21000+ lumens. Dang - for that kind of light, I may dig out my old notes and have a crack at it again.;)

TroyO
03-03-2010, 01:07 PM
Yeah.... a quick search shows that most bulbs that put out that much are designed for projectors and are 250+watts.

Now THAT would take an interesting battery pack....

Lord Dottore Matto
03-03-2010, 02:11 PM
Okay, I know you all think I am a Doctor...which I am, but I also grew up in a family that owned lighting stores so This question is right in my sweet spot (I have worked EXTENSIVELY with Halogen and HP Sodium). "can I use a halogen bulb?" the answer would be "No way". There are many reasons, not the least of which would be that you CAN'T TOUCH THEM with your bare hands (the oil in your fingers frys them) and that they will melt polycarbonate when they have been on for longer than 60 seconds. Sorry, they are amazingly bright but they are also VERY fragile and will not work for this application. Nice try though :mrgreen:

DJMoonbass
03-03-2010, 02:46 PM
plus if it IS 21000 lumens? why the blazes do you need a saber that bright? i mean a 10 watt from LED engin are bright enough and the P7 is just pushing it.... soule P4 white is like right in the sweetspot! i dont think having to wear a welders mask while playing with your saber would be fun...

just my .02$

acerocket
03-03-2010, 02:48 PM
And... did you sleep at a Holiday Inn last night?

KuroChou
03-03-2010, 04:02 PM
Curious. Where are you getting the number of lumens as 21369 lumens?
I did the research for an exact conversion table, based on the way lumens and candela are measured, and 1candela=12.57lux, thus a 1700candela halogen spotlight lamp produces 21000+lumens.
Source: http://www.theledlight.com/lumens.html


Okay, I know you all think I am a Doctor...which I am, but I also grew up in a family that owned lighting stores so This question is right in my sweet spot (I have worked EXTENSIVELY with Halogen and HP Sodium). "can I use a halogen bulb?" the answer would be "No way". There are many reasons, not the least of which would be that you CAN'T TOUCH THEM with your bare hands (the oil in your fingers frys them) and that they will melt polycarbonate when they have been on for longer than 60 seconds. Sorry, they are amazingly bright but they are also VERY fragile and will not work for this application. Nice try though :mrgreen:
I work in stage theatre as a living, I'm an International Honors Thespian for my tech work alone, and I'm an avid photographic hobbyist with work in local galleries.
I'm well aware of how to properly handle halogen and soduim lamps, and also well aware of the issue of melting my blade.
LDM is absolutely correct, that these things are insanely temperamental.
If you touch them with bare hands the oils on your fingers will cause a hotspot, leading to explosion.
I know the melting point of the PolyC is way below the operating temp of the suggested lamp, and that was my primary heating issue. I know full well how hot these get, when they manage to raise the surface temperature of the metal instruments that use them to somewhere around 180 degrees in 15 min or less.
Focusing lights when they're that hot, and you're hanging off an extension ladder 30 feet in the air, isn't exactly a walk in the park.
I can scrap a ceramic lamp base out of an old source 4, or mounted spotlight, and build a custom holder for that.
I have access to some very specific materials from theatre/film/photographic supply contacts, that are specifically meant to handle this sort of thing. All sorts of high temperature insulators, flame retardants, and diffusion materials.

So, before anyone else decides to jump down my throat about something they don't think I know about... it's just a cool concept idea, that with the right amount of care and attention, just might work.
I'll certainly do a lot of research, before trial and error bench testing, and ultimately prototype construction.
I know I'm young and naive and completely out of my mind, but that's exactly why with dedication, it might work out.
Because I have the persistence, ingenuity, and lack of common sense, needed to figure out a solution.


EDIT: The purpose of the thread wasn't necessarily to inspire anyone else to follow me in my quest of insanity.
Just to notify that it exists, and I'm determined to find a way.

TroyO
03-03-2010, 04:23 PM
I certainly wouldn't want to hold anyone back... LOL, I'm always doing stuff that "can't be done" just because.... well, someone said it can't be done! LOL.

My big concern is just the specs don't seem to indicate the kind of light output you are talking about. It just seems to be breaking some laws of physics to push that many photons with only 20 watts.

I'm not saying it isn't possible, just to make sure you research everything you can (Or just be willing to throw the money at it and see what you get.) I mean, really... we are talking a $2 bulb, LOL. I'd just buy the thing and hook it up... or buy a couple, that way you can do a "quick and dirty" test just by powering it up with a 12V source and see if it blows right away. If it does... but was nice and super-bright before it did, you'll know you are on to something and it only cost ya $2 to find out.

Also, I would note that pointing out obstacles that may have to be overcome is in no way saying don't try it. It's just saying.... here are some forseeable obstacles you may have to overcome. LOL.

As to why go that bright? Why not? I'd rather have a brighter soloution and turn it down than to have something I want brighter but just can't do it.

By the way, here's some Wikipedia info too...

__________________________________________________ ____

Relationship between luminous intensity and luminous flux
If a source emits a known luminous intensity Iv (in candelas) in a well-defined cone, the total luminous flux F in lumens is given by

F = Iv × 2π × (1 - cos(A/2)),
where A is the radiation angle of the lamp—the full vertex angle of the emission cone. For example, a lamp that emits 590 cd with a radiation angle of 40° emits about 223 lumens. See MR16 for emission angles of some common lamps.[12][13][14]

If the source emits light uniformly in all directions, the flux can be found by multiplying the intensity by 4π: a uniform 1 candela source emits 12.6 lumens.

Lord Dottore Matto
03-03-2010, 04:34 PM
LOL, no throat jumping, just educating. Like I said, nice try. You are doing a job that I have more than 20 years experience in so I am certainly qualified to help you young-ins out. That said, I love it when people use their heads and actually propose a novel idea even when it won't work. It shows me that at least the person is thinking and not being a lazy goof. Keep us posted on how it comes out. Maybe Blue Fox could chime in here since she used to build halogen bulbs for Sylvania (I think).;)

BTW:

"I'll certainly do a lot of research, before trial and error bench testing, and ultimately prototype construction.
I know I'm young and naive and completely out of my mind, but that's exactly why with dedication, it might work out.
Because I have the persistence, ingenuity, and lack of common sense, needed to figure out a solution."

Have at it. that is what they said about my great great uncles...and their names were Orville and Wilbur Wright, so have at it and I wish you success.:D

P.S.- it was obvious that you researched it, which is why I took the time to respond (wouldn't want you to catch on fire...unless you posted it on youTube later...:lol:)

KuroChou
03-03-2010, 04:50 PM
So wikipedia's source agrees with mine, that 1 candela = 12.57 lumen, and industrial lighting is rated in candela, rather than the LED lumen.

The thing about this kind of lamp, is that as far as power and temperature go, they're actually pretty sturdy.
You can underdrive them indefinitely, to tune them down, and you can overdrive them a bit, at the known cost of extra heat and reduced lifespan. This particular variety of lamp is intended for use in concentrated beam spotlights, and already has a reflector/collimator built into the housing at 10 degrees.

I was surprised to see these running around twelve volts, when I'm used to the more heavy duty stuff that runs off of mains voltage 120V @ 20A.

As for the real purpose of the intensity... this thing will be bright in daylight, and with the use of high heat filters (Gels) it will also be incredibly saturated in any spectrum of color, AND, when they're this bright.... blade evenness isn't much of a challenge anymore.

@LDM: Sorry if I got over defensive. No harm done. I appreciate your willingness to help out. I'm just a little oversensitive to people saying anything to the extent of "can't." Graduation's coming up, and I'm all but ready to kill my family.

EDIT: on a side note, I also have extensive access to a broad range of ceramic tools materials and applications. This may be the only way to insulate effectively enough from the hilt. The hard part will always be the base of the blade, though I'm thinking a gap between the Gel and the base of the blade will make all the difference in the world. Direct contact is in the hundreds of degrees, but the airspace between would be substantially lower. Film/Theatre Gels are already heat resistant, and somewhat flame retardant.

TroyO
03-03-2010, 04:54 PM
Opps.. I think I see a little flaw in the math... candella is based on the entire area of a sphere (That's where your 12.57 multiplier comes from) but because of the focusing effect of the reflector you are only seeing candella as representative of some smaller PORTION of that sphere... in this case 10 degrees.

Lord Dottore Matto
03-03-2010, 04:56 PM
@LDM: Sorry if I got over defensive. No harm done. I appreciate your willingness to help out. I'm just a little oversensitive to people saying anything to the extent of "can't." Graduation's coming up, and I'm all but ready to kill my family.

No worries, that is why I explained (the internetz are not very effective at demonstrating inflection and meaning after all;)) I also could have said "not a reasonable solution" rather than inferring that it was "impossible". Orem UT? BYU? Are we alumni? Don't stress over graduation it is the gateway to the rest of your life!

TroyO
03-03-2010, 05:01 PM
Here's an example... again from Wiki (God I love that thing!)

For example, a lamp that emits 590 cd with a radiation angle of 40° emits about 223 lumens

Now, as a rough arsed ballpark.... if 590 candella is 223 lumens at 40 degrees....

At 20 degrees 590 candella would be 111.5 lumens...

at 10 degrees 590 candella would be around 56 lumens.

If yours was listed at 1700 candella you are looking at about 3x that, or 168 lumens........

KuroChou
03-03-2010, 05:08 PM
LDM: I'm at the end of my Senior year at Provo High, just down the road from BYU.

TroyO, I think you have your math backwards though. I know for a fact, that my 240 lumen P4 isn't even in the same ballpark as that spotlight lamp. I's every bit as bright, but it doesn't carry with the same perceived brightness.

In your math you're thinking of uncompressed light metered from x degrees of space in the light sphere, but what you're forgetting is that the x degrees referenced on the lamp isn't just saying the effective illumination area, in this type of model, it's concentrating the entire 360 into the space of 10, making it brighter, not dimmer. It's not quite as efficient as an ERS (ellipsoidal reflector spotlight) but it's based on the same science.

Think of it in the same sense as using a magnifying glass to focus the sun. It's the same principles as physical force multiplication and PSI, just in terms of light. You're taking all the light that the sun casts on the diameter of the magnifying glass, and compressing it all into a space the size of a pin head, thus multiplying the intensity of both light and heat. The same works with a thumbtack, you may only press with 5psi, on a half inch square, meaning only 2.5psi of force on your thumb, but the sharp point at the bottom compresses the same force into a microscopic space, multiplying the effective pressure by a few thousand times.

Lord Dottore Matto
03-03-2010, 05:10 PM
I know where that is (obviously);) I lived in Provo for 2 years. Hope graduation goes great!

KuroChou
03-03-2010, 05:24 PM
LED technology is infinitely more efficient than tungsten filament or even fluorescent, but efficient doesn't always mean more effective.

You may be able to meter the same burn intensity from both a P4, and a 60 watt incandescent, at the source, but this is because the LED is specifically designed to concentrate all of it's light into a smaller space. They may appear to burn with the same intensity, but the P4 will only light half as much space in practical use (outside of a 1sqin lightsaber). If even though they meter the same at a metered focal point, if you put an ERS reflector onto the 60W bulb, and compress the light into the same 1 sq in, it will read much higher than the LED, and from a much greater distance.

The reason we use the LED's instead of Incandescents is because of the heat and power restrictions given to the hobby. If I find workarounds for both, then the incandescent will always be superior in such a small space.... for a few more years anyway.....

Sunrider
03-03-2010, 05:54 PM
Try the SSR-90. Not super easy but doable.

acerocket
03-03-2010, 05:58 PM
I agree with TroyO on this. You need to factor in the difference between a full sphere and a 10 degree (5 degree half angle) cone of same sphere. I bet the manufacturer is playing with numbers to make their light seem brighter. I have never seen a Halogen lamp rated that high. I have a 20W M16 bulb in my closet and the box says 230 lumens. I googled Halogen bulb lumen ratings and found some 50W lamps listed at 600-800 lumens. I find it hard to believe that little 20W halogen could be 25 times brighter than a 50W halogen house lamp.

I am not going to get into the math, but measuring lumens is a tricky business. If you have the time, read this pdf: http://files.intl-lighttech.com/handbook.pdf particulary the part about luminuos intensity on page 37. If you don't want to read, let me post a section of that page:


Suppose that two LED’s each emit 0.1 lm total in a narrow beam: One
has a 10° solid angle and the other a 5° angle. The 10° LED has an intensity
of 4.2 cd, and the 5° LED an intensity of 16.7 cd. They both output the same
total amount of light, however - 0.1 lm.
A flashlight with a million candela beam sounds very bright, but if its
beam is only as wide as a laser beam, then it won’t be of much use. Be wary
of specifications given in beam candela, because they often misrepresent the
total output power of a lamp.

I learned long ago to take all the lumen ratings of LEDs and lamps with a (very big) grain of salt. The manufacturers are always looking to outdo the competition even if that means fudging the results.

I am not suggesting you not undertake this experiment. I would love to see you try it and post your results. My experiment with halogens was a disaster - the aluminum test setup got so hot I couldn't touch it after 5 minutes. Not very handy if you want to hold the saber at a con. Just be careful throwing out numbers like you have because lumens and thier calculation is a little bit of black magic in my opinion. Ask 10 people to calculate lumens from a lamp datasheet and I bet you get 20 different answers.

Lord Dottore Matto
03-03-2010, 06:03 PM
We have all been trumped by Acerocket. He is an actual Astrophysicist so I'm betting he knows better than me...Oh well, I am off to install a vita-grow lamp top try and regrow my hair...:lol:

TroyO
03-03-2010, 06:18 PM
LOL, well like I said earlier... for $2, I'd try it!

I've seen folks that made flashlights that could catch things on fire.... if it wasn't a hoaxed vid that's gotta be one poopload of lumens.

(A whole new measure for lumens? How many pooploads have ya got there?)

acerocket
03-03-2010, 06:58 PM
Hey now!!! Don't be telling lies. I am not an astrophysist. I am an aerospace engineer. Besides, who has more letters after their name? I only have B.S. and we all know what that stands for (and I don't mean Bachelor of Science).

I am a strong advocate of experimenting. I would never tell anyone to not try something (unless it was dangerous or something). But I have noticed a lot of times people will post their ideas and then get angry when someone points out flaws in their plan/idea. I think it boils down to a loss of common sense in the face of a new discovery. Sometimes we see something that looks real promising and run to post about it and how we are going to do it. But when someone with a little more common sense looks the idea over, can find flaws. I am just as guilty of this as anyone. Does anyone remember the Tri-Lux idea? Oh it sounded great but ended up being kind of impractical after I prototyped it. It worked OK, but not as I thought it should have given the base numbers. It's great to see people experimenting, but pause a minute to think before you jump head first into your plan. If it sounds to good to be true, then it probably is. In KuroChou's case, he thought he found a great Halogen bulb. But I find it hard to believe that a little 1" diameter 12 watt halogen bulb could pump out 25-30 times the light a large 50 watt house lamp could. I have learned long ago to never trust manufacturer specs. They are always fudging the number to make themselves look better than their competitiors. In the case of LEDs (and lamps in general), unless you know the exact spefic conditions the 'published' values were taken at, it is hard to quantify the results and compare to other products.

KuroChou - if you feel passionate enough about your idea, then please try it out. You may just prove us all wrong.

KuroChou
03-03-2010, 07:09 PM
Ace: it still all comes down to the angle. Maybe they did fudge the numbers because of the angle, but that doesn't matter as thats the angle we're using for the saber anyway.
It may be the exact same amount of actual "light" as you're getting in your closet, but it will still appear much brighter to the eye, because I'll be using it in a smaller space, with a shorter distance.
That, and near as I can tell, this isn't your ordinary track-lighting flood halogen.
It's specifically intended for industrial spotlight instruments, and if it turns out it's not, it doesn't change my intention of using an industrial, or at the very least better focused one.
Either way, the perceived "brightness" of the blade will likely still surpass the P7; and regardless, I'm not trying to argue it. If I'm wrong I'm wrong.
I'm just trying to make sure we're all on the same page as far as terminology and mathematics.
When I actually get one wired up, I'll be using light meters and ir laser thermometers to find the maximum usable lux/temp ratio, and what electrical power that falls at.

Moving on to the real issue (because that doesn't really matter until I find the physical limits of my thermal management)....

Wikipedia rates PolyC as gradually softening above 150°C (302°F), and flowing above 300°C (572°F).
Halogen lamps typically run at or below 250°C (500°F), because this is the temperature required to initiate the tungsten-halogen cycle (the chemical reaction that preserves the fillament).
That means that I effectively only have to insulate or dissipate a little over 100°C (212°F).
Granted that means that I'm reducing it by the entire boiling point of water. Running at that temperature it's still enough to cause really nasty burns, so hilt insulation or dissipation is totally different can of worms.
Good thing I don't mind gloves.
The interesting part of using an incandescent instead of an LED, is that the heat dynamic completely reverses.
The lamp will never get hot enough to damage itself, but certainly hot enough to damage everything around it.
The issue then, is figuring out to do with all the heat it conducts in such small spaces.

Wikipedia still has excellent information for this, in the form of exact conductivity ratings for a broad spectrum of materials, from the very insulating silica gel, to the very conductive graphite.
I'm getting the impression I'll need both in order to make this thing effective.

The issue, is that all the formulae I've scrounged up from there are very precise and impractical for such a small scale.... that and I don't completely understand them.
I'd love it if someone could help me convert the information there, into something relatively useful i.e. how many degrees of heat from the lamp I can move away from the blade using 1-3cuin of circulated replenished air.
From there I can scale it down with filter Gels, and finally operating current, until it's within a usable range for the PolyC.
I realized in the very beginning that when all was said and done it would be a very careful balance of heat, current, and lumens.

Thank you to everyone willing to help with the math and research, or at the very least to lend a word of encouragement.
I think in the coming days, the most important thing to remember about this is that in no way is it intended to be practical.
I just want to prove it's possible.
It's silly to think that I'll cause a revolution in the community using deprecated technology;
but it'll be hoot if it works.

TroyO
03-03-2010, 07:36 PM
Aero-Gel! Love that stuff... or at least the idea of it. LOL... one of these days I will order a chunk off ebay. Anyway... it's an amazing insulator... there's common pics of a thin sheet of it with a blowtorch on the botton and an undamaged rose on top. It looks almost like smoke and is the lowest massed solid or some such.

http://cgi.ebay.com/AEROGEL-NANOGEL-GRANULAR-250CC-BOTTLE-BLUE-SMOKE_W0QQitemZ270527554314QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item3efcb2e30a

Here ya go... this has a pic, but with crayons instead.

Also, remember that most things have a max possible temp, and if that is within the operating range of the device then you don't need to dissipate anything... just insulate it away from whatever it can melt. Ohh, and make sure not to touch anyone with the bulb end, LOL.

KuroChou
03-03-2010, 07:52 PM
I think you got my point exactly. the only reason I'd want to conduct, instead of insulate, is to pull the heat to an area of the saber with more space to deal with it.
for the most part, the next step is figuring out exactly how much heat (in degrees rather than watts) I can effectively shield and/or dissipate. From there I can just scale back the lamp itself until it's within a usable operating temperature.

TroyO
03-03-2010, 08:10 PM
Well, 20 watts is 20 watts.... the "conversion rate" of watts to heat is pretty consistant no matter the technology as a remarkably small percentage of the energy involved is actually converted to photons. So, see if you can find a generic electrical watts to heat conversion.

Next thought.... don't discount thermal mass, either, You don't have a ton of room but but you might be surprised at the amount of heat that a solid 1.5" diameter by 3 or 4 inch chunk of copper can "suck up" and hold. If you are going to run out of battery before you fill up your "heat storage tank" anyway, it will have time to naturally dissapate in the meantime.

Sunrider
03-03-2010, 08:44 PM
I think you got my point exactly. the only reason I'd want to conduct, instead of insulate, is to pull the heat to an area of the saber with more space to deal with it.
for the most part, the next step is figuring out exactly how much heat (in degrees rather than watts) I can effectively shield and/or dissipate. From there I can just scale back the lamp itself until it's within a usable operating temperature.

You could totally use air cooling. I am doing that very thing now. There are plenty of fans in this size.

TroyO
03-03-2010, 10:07 PM
Yeah, I'm working an air cooled system for my next one myself. I'm setting the fan up to run 20% longer than main LED was on (Up to 2 minutes).

That way, if the blade was on for 5 minutes straight the fan runs for an extra minute to cool things down. I just figure that leaving it hot after a run kind of defeats the purpose, LOL.

I can give you an idea of how much it helps on a 10w LEDEngin's heat factor when i actually get it mounted up.

KuroChou
03-04-2010, 12:36 AM
I already have a source for thermal grade graphite roundstock (tooled by carbide) and aerogel insulator sheets at
http://www.mcmaster.com/#graphite/=62f9di
and
http://www.mcmaster.com/#thermal-insulation/=62fblu
They're not cheap, but they'll get the job done.

What I'm now dubbing with the pet name "Project Solaris" is sure to be many months and a couple hundred dollars in the making.
Certainly not a lighthearted task for a 17 year old.
Sounds like fun.

acerocket
03-04-2010, 07:32 AM
If you are planning on spending so much to make the saber, why are you going for such an unorthodox battery setup?


I think I'll go disposable..... 3.2V 500-560mAh lithium @ $0.12 a pop from http://www.batteriesandbutter.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=CR2032GI&Category_Code=cn
The idea is to pack these as UBER C cells. 4 buttons to a battery, to make 12.8V and 2000mAh (2Ah) per $0.48 battery.
Assembled, each battery would have an OD of 30mm and a length of 12.8mm.
We need ten of them in parallel to power the lamp, making a battery chain 128mm (5.04in) long,
ultimately running 21,369 lumens at $5 per hour.
Sweet.


If I read this correctly, you are taking 4 of the CR2032 batteries and stacking them in series to get a 12.8V total battery. Your math is a little off there though. In series, you will get 12.8V but it will still only be a 500 mAh setup. You can't multiply both values by 4 on the battery. You can certainly stack four in series for 12.8V then put 10 of them in parallel for 12.8V and 5000 mAh total rating. This just seems like way too much work when there are easier alternatives. I would imagine that with 10 seperate packs of 4 batteries, changing batteries every couple hours is going to be a complex job. I would really look into other options. I don't think Ni-Mh is going to work. At 1.2V each you need a 10 pack just to get 12V. Assuming AAA size, you would again need 30-40 to get a good run time. I think you should really look into Li-ion. I know they do scare some people but they are not that hard to work with. If it were me, I would really look at the AW C size protected Li-ion. Each one is rated at 3.7V nominal (more like 4-4.2V when fully charged from my experience) and 3300 mA. Three of these in series would give you a 11.1-12.6V pack with 3300 ma and you only have to worry about 3 cells and two wire connections. Granted, charging them becomes more of a pain but in the long run, they would be much more cost effective I think. Just my $.02.

KuroChou
03-04-2010, 08:50 AM
Honestly I hadn't put much thought at all into the batteries.
I know a lot of people are scared of finding high voltage high current solutions, and shy away from a project that require them.
The coin cells are only one of many possibilities.
One of my other ideas, was fabbing some custom batteries out of the individual cells from a 9v rechargeable (there are six in each).
That's the difference that most people don't realize between the nines and any other size.
With AAA, AA, C, D, N, etc. they're not actually "batteries" in a technical sense.
A "cell" is a "pile" of reactive disks, submerged in a reactive chemical, in most cases acid.
The strength of the chemical used, determines the maximum voltage and run time available from the cell, and the size of the discs determines the maximum current.
This is why a broad variety of single cell *batteries* will have differing currents with the same voltage; and similar sizes with differing chemicals will have different voltages.
A "battery" is a series of cells together. Most traditional sizes are single cell format, and as a result have more juice (bigger can means longer chemical reaction).
The nines have the awful runtime that they do, because the are actually batteries.
Inside of each 9V battery, is six miniature 1.5V AAA's wired in series to total 9V.
This is where the adage "a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link" comes in. While the battery as a whole has achieved 9V, the total charge of the battery is the same as just one of the cells.

They're still not likely to be the most efficient set up, but they're another small format cell with a lot of possibilities, if one has the patience to use them.
Their smaller diameter makes them much more space efficient inside of a cylindrical holder.

KuroChou
03-04-2010, 11:04 AM
Thermal Density

Material.......Specific Heat(mJ/g°C)...Density(g/mL)......Thermal Density or
.................................................. ..........................Volumetric Heat Capacity (J/mL°C)

Water............4190..........................1.. ........................4.190
Iron..............450........................... 7.874....................3.543
Copper..........380............................8.9 2.....................3.390
Aluminum......920............................2.7.. .....................2.484
Silver............235............................1 0.49...................2.465
Alcohol..........2450..........................0.7 85....................1.923
Graphite........710............................2.2 3.....................1.583
Sand.............664............................1. 78(packed).........1.182
Clay..............130............................1 .36(fired)............0.177


Thermal Conductivity (W/m·K)
Silica Aerogel.......0.004-0.04
Alcohols..............0.1-0.21
Rubber................0.16
Water.................0.6
Aluminum...........120-237
Copper...............401
Silver................429
Graphite............4400-5780

not sure exactly how to go from here....

PhoenixReborn
03-04-2010, 11:14 AM
Well if you're still going to try to do this.... I recommend a Mr. Fusion with a flux capacitor.

KuroChou
03-04-2010, 12:04 PM
OR we could be even more realistic than that, and make a belt out of 64 trustfires, and power a full scale 120V 20A lamp... nah.

acerocket
03-04-2010, 12:35 PM
not sure exactly how to go from here....

:confused:

Then you really need to do a lot more learning I think.

You are way over-analyzing this project. I saw you post that you are a senior in High School. It's great that you can pull charts from your high school Physics textbook or from Wikipedia but if you don't know what to do with them, then isn't it pointless? I majored in Aerospace Engineering with an emphasis in structural design. Beleive when I say there is a lot of thermal issues to take into account and I know a little about thermal transfer, thermal analysis and the like. You don't need all that here. You just need to apply some common sense knowledge from what you already know.

At the root, you have a light source that generates heat. It is going to generate both direct and indirect heat. By this I mean you will have components in direct contact with the lamp that will be pulling heat from heat from it. You will also be heating up the surrounding air which in turn will heat up components of your hilt (indirect heating). You want to minimize the heating of your components so you don't burn your hands. You have mentioned that you want to buy graphite and aerogel. These are both great insulators, but very poor conductors. In essencse, you will be creating an oven inside your hilt. You need to make sure you can get rid of the heat created by the lamp. You want some heatsinking and a way to keep the air surrounding the lamp cool so it will not conduct heat to the other components of your hilt. I would concentrate on finding a way to deal with exchanging the air and a design that will maximize heat transfer to the surroundings. You don't need to buy fancy, expensive amterials to accomplish what you want.

KuroChou
03-04-2010, 01:06 PM
I actually converted all the volumetric heat capacities myself, before realizing wiki had those as well.
I understand very well that there are two different elements key here, not just insulating components but either storing or dumping the excess heat.
That's why I was gathering the data on the different materials, to figure out, not only which ones would be most practical/ideal for each purpose, but also relative volumes needed to accomplish this.
The problem is that there's a lot of math to be done, to solve which is more practical, an advanced air cooling system, or to direct the heat to a copper or iron core, insulated from the hilt.
I never intended to use sound, and at this point I'm not even worrying as much about an in-hilt power source, because the batteries are the most heat sensitive element, apart from my hands.
Unless I can keep the hilt as a whole, relatively cool, they'll have to be stored elsewhere anyway.
Either way, I think the most effective method is going to be to thermally compartmentalize the whole saber. The lamp can handle it's own heat, so if I sufficiently insulate the hilt and electronics to push the heat forward, all that's left is protecting the blade.
The idea with the graphite is to machine a lamp holder that will force everything forward, and then wrap everything in mylar and aerogel sheet material to insulate it from the hilt and make sure everything is pushed forward.
After that, I need an effective way to circulate air in and out of the gap between lamp and blade.
I'm thinking a more practical version of a crystal chamber, having a fan in the pommel to pull cool air in through the space between lamp and blade, and push it out the bottom.
If it works, then again this is where the aerogel comes in.
The hot air moving through the hilt needs to be separated from everything else, meaning a lot of compartmentalizing, miniaturizing, and fancy chassis work.

An alternative setup, would involve having the fan immediately behind the lamp housing, and have another vent behind that, keeping all the hot air in the upper third or so of the hilt, and keeping everything else completely insulated.

I also managed to scrounge up two more power sources
http://shopping.microbattery.com/CR17335SL
and
http://shopping.microbattery.com/SAFT-LO25SX


All this, and the most important thing right now, is actually ordering and metering the lamp to see if it's even worth it.
All the prototype cooling systems in the world, won't be worth it if it's not brighter than a P7.

On a side note, I never took physics. The limit of my thermo-dynamic experience, outside of what I've read exclusively for this project, was from equilibrium equations in chemistry.

Enolmano
03-04-2010, 02:40 PM
Confess:
I havent read the whole thread, and I definetely don't understand everything you are talking about, but I do get the most of it.

The point:
Don't stop being stupid. I love it! This is the kind of stuff that makes things evolve!

Sunrider
03-04-2010, 06:04 PM
Wow that sounds like an awful lot of trouble to make this bulb work. Are you sure you can even get the light down the tube without the heat?;)

Have you looked at the SSR-90 specs? Much better than P7.

KuroChou
03-04-2010, 06:31 PM
While a ridiculously bright blade is a byproduct of the project, half the novelty is making a functional saber out of a deprecated and condemned technology.
To prove that something thought impossible, is in fact possible, however impractical.
If I ever get it to work, it will have left me with the technique and experience needed to make a saber out of pretty much anything.
At this rate it'll all be documented right here, so the entire community can learn from my exploits.
If I can conquer 250 degrees celcius, we'll never again have issues with heat management.
If I can power the incredibly greedy incandescents' 12V@1.7A, we'll have a limitless supply of options for higher power boards and LED's.
It's more than making a ridiculous saber, its pioneering and developing the obscure techniques needed to operate higher level components.

That's the part that everyone else should be excited about.

Sunrider
03-04-2010, 09:18 PM
May the force be with you.:)

KuroChou
03-05-2010, 12:54 AM
I did source the Platlight SSR-90, by Luminus. The only official retailer is their partner Avanet.
Supplies are extremely limited and they're on a 14 week hold but they're only $45.83 each for the whites here (http://avnetexpress.avnet.com/store/em/EMController/LED/Luminus-Devices/SSR-90-W65S-R11-GN100/_/R-9046428/A-9046428/An-0?action=part&catalogId=500201&langId=-1&storeId=500201).

They have pure colors, and RGB's as well.
800+ lumens in Red
1900+ lumens in Green
450+ lumens in Blue
and 1000-2250 in white.
All diodes operate on 1-9A (lux scaling somewhat linearly), making them usable for almost any saber application once they're available.

Since I'm already working oh high level power sources, I think the true holy grail of LED tech is actually the CSM-360-W, running 3600-6000 lumens at 3.6-6.9A.
The drawback being fact that it's actually four 90's mounted on a single chip under a single dome.
Still... if someone could recreate the format on a star..... daylight in a can.

Sunrider
03-05-2010, 06:18 AM
All diodes operate on 1-9A (lux scaling somewhat linearly), making them usable for almost any saber application once they're available.


They are available and a few of us are already using them. You may find that after the white is filtered & reaches the tube you have no more light than these.