Resonance and bass effect for speakers

[Vlad Doon]

Hi, maybe some of you are searching the holy grail of the perfect and accurate movie-like hum and iddle sound. In my (humble) opinion, the sounds aren't low enough, so my question is, would it be possible to mount a speaker like some kind of sub-woofer ??? or this has no sense ??
If not what would be possible to obtain a similar low effect ??

[Crystal Chambers]

The best thing I can say is in my limited experience and a lot of reading here, with a reverse sound speaker set up and enough resonating space I've found it to be not quite as bright/loud but more of a warmer sound. While it's not quite as loud with the pommel blocked off it's still plenty loud and sounds nicer. And then the best part is having the sound coming from more then the pommel..like the rest of hilt and more ideally the blade.

Aside from this there have been studio tests by sound techs and everything.

I thought maybe the use of wood would change the resonance, like a wooden tube in front of the speaker, but I've yet to try and haven't heard of anyone else doin so either.

[Jonitus]

I've experimented with sound a lot over the years, and have come to the following conclusions:

1. Most of the soundboards we use in hilts (with exception of the Crystal Focus which allows for custom sounds), don't have sounds with enough bottom-end to have much in the way of real bass.

2. The speakers we use (even the good ones here at TCSS) don't have the capability inherent to their design to play low frequencies with much effect. Most of our small hobby speakers have a range from 250Hz to 20kHz. Decent bass is below 120Hz...where we can't get to.

3. The things you can do to a full-range stereo speaker to boost bottom end response are largely not practical in a saber, because of the room they take up. This includes baffles, chambers, poly-fill, membrane, phase coupling, chambers of different materials, etc.

4. Some things you can do to help the clarity of sound are to:
a. Make sure you vent sound from both ends of the speaker. Resonance works in either direction, since the diaphragm is moving back and forth
b. Make sure your resonance chamber is not too long nor too short (about 1 to 1.5" is fine), and make sure it fits snugly in your hilt. "tight" coupling like this will help the vibrations of the speaker to transmit through your hilt and it actually works somewhat like a vibrating motor. Kind of cool.
c. Pick a good material for your resonance chamber. PVC is about the best I have found. Acrylics, polycarbonate, aluminum...too hard and the sound is harsh.
d. If using the TCSS speaker holders, try drilling some holes where the backside of the speaker will be. You'll be surprised at the increase in apparent volume (because you are taking advantage of resonance in both directions), as well as the clarity of your sound.

[Vlad Doon]

Wao, thanks to you both for the detailed answers. I see it clearer now. I might test a pvc or a wooden chamber (not too long and tight speaker, as you said) , and maybe I'd experiment with an inverted speaker to a "vented" hilt (thx crystal C.). If I understand well, as the speaker's sound vibrations propagate either in front and behind it, I have to take care of both front and rear spaces as two types of resonance chambers ?!
Anyway, I can see now the limitations of our sabers speakers (thank for your super complete info Jonitus), but the marvelous thing about saber making is there is a lot yet to discover and experiment.;)

May the force be with you

[pipster79]

there is a thread at the top of this very section that has many techniques and ideas for resonance chambers. read thru it and try what you can. best thing is to play with it till you find what you like. myself i find 1 inch pvc pipe couplers work fantastic, they hold the speaker snug like a glove with no glue and they have a small lip in the center that the speaker can sit on.

[Sunrider]

Here's some test data for front of speaker resonance. Soon I will do a full hilt test.;);)

http://forums.thecustomsabershop.com/showthread.php?t=9608

[Vlad Doon]

Thanks to you all, I can experiment without wasting effort and time with useless settings. I couldn't imagine someone has been experimenting with sound the way you did sunrider. just awesome and valuable work..

May the force be with you all

[Novastar]

I'm gonna echo three key points Jon made... which are:

* Drill some holes in the hilt (some people don't like this, as... it could 'wreck' a movie hilt, but... it helps for resonance

* You MUST have some "room" between the speaker and the very end of the pommel... uh... well, if you want to make GOOD use of resonance. Just as an FYI... most of the MRFX/HFX sabers did/do NOT do this!!

* Resonance room "in front" and "in back"... is exactly right, as... YUP... the speaker moves fwd and back or... in and out. Whatever you want to say.

Now... on the last point I just re-iterated... it's TRUE that the bloody magnet is (obviously) on one end of the speaker... and so it is sort of the "worse" end of the speaker for getting resonance... but still. Just the same, it's nice to have space "behind" the magnet-end also.

So... what Jon said--it's friggin' AWESOME advice. Should be stickied, and his experience alone tells the story.

Vlad (and any newcomers)... you'll find that sound is indeed 50% of the battle around here. Many of us spend a LOT of time trying to get more bang for the buck (so-to-speak)... and much experimentation, trial & error and certain "known to be effective" things have been discovered.

But yes... for NOW (2010??)... big, boomin', thumpin', bangin', rumble-in-the-bronx style bass... ... ...

... ... ain't practical/happenin' in an LED saber. ... ... ... For now. :cool:

[Vlad Doon]

Thx Novastar for the synthetic info. it has helped me a lot.
I'm aware we can't have bass boost effects with "sabers" speakers. I was just trying to find more low iddle sounds . In fact, IMO, you've reached the top level with the soundcard and sample stuff (The cds are a bible) , so now, I must focus on the speaker and resonance chamber, Thank you all for the valuable tips.


May the force be with you all

[tinfoilhelmet]

perhaps some experimentation with active equalization, 2 output speaker and amp phase reversal techniques and compression is in order?
easy to say, harder to do, eh?

[Novastar]

perhaps some experimentation with active equalization, 2 output speaker and amp phase reversal techniques and compression is in order?
easy to say, harder to do, eh?Any way you slice it (at least "for now"... although this is more of a physics/wave properties thing)... the soundwaves we know as "bass"... are simply pretty LONG wavelengths (from peak to trough). Which is why they require "big empty boxes" to... uh... for lack of a simpler way to put it... get 'er duuunnnn... :D

Another way to put it... as quoted by my friend Anthony Davidson (Necrolosis from the BOP series) regarding a completely different thing... "Fifteen pounds of potatoes. Five pound bag." :D

Bass waves "do not fit" in a saber hilt.

Wouldja look at THAT irony...
...yet ANOTHER bloody thing that doesn't fit in a saber hilt.

Like... as if we don't have enough trouble already regarding trying to fit 6,432,723 components + FoC + extender boards + super gizmoids + crystal chambers + uber batteries in there...

Empty space in a saber hilt??!?! Resonance chamber?!?!?!? HAH!! :P

[Vlad Doon]

perhaps some experimentation with active equalization, 2 output speaker and amp phase reversal techniques and compression is in order?
easy to say, harder to do, eh?

Wuu, sorry but you left me behind with this post.
Well, I'm quite sure now that bass effects as a general meaning is impossible for now (we can trust Novastar),...but experimentation is a way to the light (...perdon... to the sound).

Maybe, some of your ideas may be experimented, but I have to admit I'd need some precision about active equalization, amp phase reversal techniques and compression.

[cardcollector]

Empty space in a saber hilt??!?! Resonance chamber?!?!?!? HAH!! :P

That's exactly what I was thinking...:rolleyes:

[TroyO]

I'm doing something a bit.... well, odd in my next hilt. 2 speakers, wired in paralell and facing back to back with about .5 inch in between them. There will be a channel from that space in to a cavity in the main body of the saber.

I think it may be called an "Acoustic coupled" enclosure.

There's a few reasons for doing it that way, most of which won't make sense until I get some progress on thsi thing and can post some pics..... but those reasons are physical/space limitations rather than for sound.

I'll be curious how it sounds when mounted... it sounds pretty good when just taped together for testing. Double the surface area = more bass?

Anyway.... I'm curious too.. LOL, I'll post my impressions.

[Novastar]

I've tried something similar with CF before, and... although I think it's somewhere in this very thread(??)... the results were less than ideal.

Then again--there WERE limitations. The CF audio amp wasn't "super uber" by any means (nor was it "sucky")... and trying the speakers in // or in = seemed to produce similarly "ho-hum" results.

Additionally, I tried moving the speakers apart from each other (as far as possible within the hilt)... and put them close as well. In all honesty, I couldn't detect much difference.

I think the main reason I didn't hear a difference was simply like this: imagine if you took your desktop speakers and placed them RIGHT NEXT to one another. First of all, now you aren't hearing sound "from both sides" (since they'd normally be at least 2' or more apart). Secondly, try turning off one speaker (or use the computer to "go all right" or all left with the sound output). I couldn't detect a difference with my ears.

What Troyo is doing (if I THINK I understand it)... might work... MIGHT work... but I honestly think it would take:

* Precise specifications, materials and "tweaks" regarding the hilt/resonance cavities (read: "pro" dremel-fu or better, like CNC)
* Precise calculations on just what size, type and freq response the 2 speakers should be all about
* Precise calculations on how far apart the 2 speakers should be (Troyo mentioned 0.5")
* The driver board and battery solution would have to be ideal in the sense that the audio amp would have to be able to CORRECTLY handle the speakers in // or in = , depending on what is desired

...and to me... all of that ALSO being limited into a 10" to 12" hilt... is a TON of trouble for... maybe a barely perceptible result.

Granted, I think the possibilities in a STAFF (read: hilt is 20" or far greater) would be more feasible and "worth the effort"... but I don't know. :? It seems like one tiny little error would mess it all up, since the wavelengths would be finicky.

Further... since the sound output wavelengths CHANGE all the time... you'd really have to "aim for" a particular set of wavelengths (Iiiiiiii Guuuueeessss the lower end ones??!?!?)... and hope for the best?!?

I wish Troyo some luck though!! Any experiment is better than none at all most of the time!

[TroyO]

It is an expirement... mostly I had a situation where I couldn't add a speaker in a traditional manner.

I actually got the speaker mount and battery bay done, so here's a quick pic. Overall idea is to build it up in layers... like a custom knife is made.

(Link to see how knife handles are made.. http://www.knivesby.com/handles.html)

Anyho... here's what I'm working on... the speaker mount is cut out, there's another speaker just like it on the other side. There will be a notch in to the battery bay, and it will be sealed off between the battery bay and the outside world by the handle "scales".

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1112/1001304.th.jpg (http://img169.imageshack.us/i/1001304.jpg/)

I haven't done a mounted up sound test... in theory it's double the surface area... maybe more bass?

[Novastar]

Oh, ok... so a SIDEWAYS mounting of the speakers? It's an idea...

lol, I remember suggesting such a thing back in the day to Corbin Das (when he was designing the sabers of BOP I)... and I wanted to mount the staff speaker just that way--"sideways".

It never happened, as a sound board (sadly) never even went into the Necrolosis v1 (or my v2 for that matter) staff... but... I always wondered...

[farlander]

I've seen pictures of archaic lightsabers that were powered by a belt-worn energy source. Perhaps one option for a more full sound would be to pipe the audio to a small guitar amp, disguised as a lightsaber power source. Marshall and others make really small amps that can be worn on a belt... Though I'm not sure how to get the sound converted from a CF or other board to a guitar audio cable... Hmm...

[FenderBender]

Those micro amps don't really have great bass either, I have one, and used to sell them:D

They also for the most part don't have the ability to produce the sound cleanly, and will distort the sound at most volume levels.

Really, the best way is to probably use an oblong speaker mounted sideways inside the hilt, if you have room. There are plenty out there that will fit, and have more diaphragm surface than the standard round speaker.

[Novastar]

Yah, agreed with Fender... in fact... I *think* in another thread--it was... Troyo(?) talking about mounting a speaker in a saber--and I interpreted his drawing as if he was going to do a "sideways" mount?

I mentioned to Troyo (or whoever posted it) that I wanted to do this back in 2005/2006 with the Necrolosis staff for BOP I... but that saber ended up not even HAVING sound, period. Which was a shame... but that was how it was...

[mongo]

What up,
please check out my solution for sound,[better bass-better treble] it may not be for everyone,but give it a try,you might be supprised.

peace
MONGO

[Vlad Doon]

What up,
please check out my solution for sound,[better bass-better treble] it may not be for everyone,but give it a try,you might be supprised.

peace
MONGO


Ur, where is it ? I'm curious

Peace