Questions.

[Saarai]

i've been doing alot of reading, days worth actually, and i'm noticing some people responding annoyingly towards some peoples questions.
As if they're asking questions is beneath and at times belittling them. Like I said I've done alot of reading, and found some answers, and still looking for others. My point is a person can read and read, and still may not find the answer they're looking for. Either because the answer is in a thread that has a last post in like '05, or the subject may not exactly represent the answer they're looking for.

My question is this, what are these forums for, but to answer questions and help someone new to building a lightsaber. If you don't want to answer the question, or you think it's a stupid question, why say something? Why belittle someone for trying to find an answer? Stupid people don't ask questions, and wouldn't it be better for someone to ask and get the answer, then to not ask, and just try to do it themselves, possibly ruining their saber because they were afraid to ask a question for fear of being publicly belittled and humiliated? If you feel that way then just dont' respond. Responding negagtively and belittling people is counterproductive.

I honestly have questions I am almost afraid to ask because of some of the responses i've been seeing to similar questions. One thread the person practically belittled someone and told them what they were trying to do is obviously above their skill set and they shouldn't even attempt it. I thought these forums are for helping people learn how to do these things.

[duncan29793]

amen... it seems some people here are like the troll under the bridge. If you have nothing constructive to give other than a smart a$$ answer then leave it to others more willing to help out. But that advice won't be taken because this is "thier" forum and it gives them a sense of power I guess.

Yes I am sure they are sick of seeing the same old questions. They have been here long enough to have that happen, but the new people haven't seen the threads, posts or answers. Yes some of them haven't bothered looking long enough, some don't quite get it and need a little more clarification... whatever. Instead of smacking them down, let someone else with more willingness and manners help them out. Why waste your precious time to respond to such a ridiculous question. :-?

[Onli-Won Kanomi]

Saarai you raise some good points and sometimes we old timers can indeed be a bit too quick to 'roast the noobs' and we should strive to do better than that because it is indeed better to ask questions than ruin a saber and we don't want you or anyone to 'fail' at this hobby we all love. We want you to succeed at it and enjoy building sabers and saberplay. That is good for you, good for any friends that you bring into this hobby through your success at it [afterall if you find you can build a saber maybe you will encourage a friend to build one to join you as a dueling partner eh?] and is good for all of us to grow this hobby and good for TCSS sales for that reason too.

So we truly don't want to discourage you.

You should also understand that this is a 'Do it Yourself' kind of forum so we want to encourage people to 'learn by doing'. Sometimes that translates into some folks here feeling they dob't want to 'spoon feed' noobs with information they could easily learn by reading through the tutorials and prevent them from making their own progress through building...its one reason most of us encourage noobs to start off 'small' with a simple build of a simple 'stunt' saber without sound before moving up to more ambitious designs with all the bells and whistles.

Yes there is a LOT of information here and even though most questions may have already been answered long ago sometimes the particular answer to a particular question may be buried amidst the sheer volume of many thousands of threads here.

But if you search, and if that doesnt work look through the thread index, and be sure to read the tutorials thoroughly and still cant find an answer then it is probably not the kind of question that will get you or anyone flamed...the kind of questions where that happens are usually the ones where the answer is readily available in the tutes or elsewhere on the forums and it appears the questioner isnt willing to make the effort to learn for themselves.

But we certainly should watch our demeanor so as not to seem unfriendly...I can assure you that though we are all fallible most people here want to be helpful to new saber fans.

Welcome and very best of luck with your saber building.

[Saarai]

I understand that I really do. I totally and completely understand what you mean and where you're comming from. I guess my feelin is this, and it's the only thing that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth, is when someone takes the time to, not just say "Hey, your question is covered in a tutorial." But, to belittle the person for asking the question. It's not like a face to face conversation, the person litterally makes the decision to hit reply, to type out the nastiness, and hit submit. And in the same breadth acting like it's a waste of their time for doing that. No one tied them down to the chair with a gun to thier head to and said, "Answer or I'll blow your brains out." They decided to be nasty, they made the decision to deride and belittle someone, instead of simply moving on. That to me takes it a step further and tells me they made the decision to be nasty.

Maybe creating a forum for begginners, intermediate and advance users may be the answer. That way those who want to help beginners, and won't be offended by simple questions can help them, and the intermediate/advance users can read and deal with topics more suited to their time and effort.

And I know its a DIY community, but the point of DIYing is to learn how to do it yourself. Look at the DIY network, they teach paitently, and show people how to do things so they do it right and learn in the process.

[acerocket]

Saarai. You are new here and it is only natural that you will have questions. Some of the members have been here for 4 to 5 years now and are the pioneers of this hobby. You are correct in thinking these forums are for asking questions and getting build tips and such. As a general rule, the senior members will answer your questions. But asking basic questions or questions that have been asked countless times before (and answered countless times), you can't honestly expect an answer without getting some grief. I myself, will try and answer your questions if I feel that you have at least done some reading, researching and searching. There is a lot of information here and it is sometimes hard to find - I will admit that. As long as I can help, I try if you have made an effort. I have seen too many instances where a new member is so lazy they will post their basic (and probably answered a half dozen times already) question and preface their post with the ever popular "I searched but I couldn't find the answer". That means either two things. A, they have never searched in the first place. Or B, the searched for red LED in hopes of finding out how many volts and amps a Seoul P4 red Led needs to be driven at 20% overdirve. They ended up with 400 topics and were too lazy to try and read any of them or search more specific. Why should I take the time out of my day to search the answer for them if they are too lazy to even attempt a search in the first place? This forum is a DIY forum and we try and instill that in the newer members. If you want to build a saber, you will have to do some work. If you choose not to do any work, don't expect to be spoonfed.

Put youself in my (or any senior member's) shoes for a little bit. I have been here long enough to see many technologies grow and advance. I have spent countless hours reading, researching and buying products to experiment with in hopes of having just a 'little better than the last one' saber. I have invested alot of time and money in this hobby. I have posted my results (failures and successes), I have posted new technologies to look into and I have built many sabers. I see new members sign up every week. Most do read and research. But some insist on having everything handed to them. It is these members who usually incur the wrath of the senior members. It is not that hard to find them. The questions they ask (and to a lesser extent, the way they are asked) tells us a lot about whether or not you have made the effort to look for the answer. It is not our job as senior members to answer every question that gets asked. We answer when we can, or try and point you in the right direction. But we grow very tired of answering the basic questions over and over again.

If you have a legitimate question, than by all means, please ask it. We don't want people to feel frightened of asking a question. But if you ask 'what is a blade holder' (yes, this has been asked before), then don't be shocked if you get insulted. Likewise, if you ask how many lumens a red Lux III has, don't be suprised if someone tells you to search for it as it has been asked and answered about 100 times by now.

[Saarai]

I'm not saying there aren't stupid questions out there, you can simply choose not to answer those though if it pisses you off that much. And I respect all the work and research you and others have done, but when someone makes a derivitive comment about someone being on disability and having time on their hands (and this was the comment/straw that broke the camels back and spurred this topic) that's over the line. And that's what I'm addressing. I don't care if you simply say, "dude, it's been posted look for it." But when you get personal like that on someone, that is uncalled for. I am disabled, and recieve a disability check, and while yes i may not work, that doesn't mean i'm not dealing with pain, or other things most people wouldn't understand. So to make a derivitive comment about someones free time, is quite frankly bull and unneccessary.

[acerocket]

I do usually ignore those who ask the basic or endlessly asked questions. If I didn't, I would have a lot more than 317 posts;). I don't recall any time that I have insulted a member over a question that they have asked. I may have been short and said "google that" or "search is your friend". But I don't think I have insulted anyone. I am curious as to which thread you speak where a member was insulted about being on disability. Can you please post a link to this so that I may see it? It may be something that needs to be addressed by the council members here.

[Onli-Won Kanomi]

I agree that if one doesn't want to answer a question it is better to just not answer than to answer in an insulting matter and that it makes no sense for a respondent to insult the questioner saying they are wasting one's time when the respondent could have saved that time if it was of such concern to them by simply not answering at all.

Certainly we shouldn't be insulting other members over such things as disabilities or other personal matters that are none of our business.

[Darth Biff]

Greetings all,

Saarai: I think you're right in a sense, but I also think you are reacting to a particularly bad experience that really isn't that common here.

I haven't seen or read the response you mentioned, and if it was phrased as you said, then it was completely inappropiate, and I'm sorry you had to read something like that. But please believe me, as one nOOb to another, the vast majority of people here, the "old timers" as it were, are not that hard on us.

It has a lot to do with intention. Asking about something or starting a thread in the wrong place will get some of the veterans snapping at you, but it is 95% benign. From a new guy perspective, I'm still waiting for Jedi Lorleen to come after me about something ;-)

New people always, and I mean ALWAYS ask questions that the vets have seen before, and if you are unlucky enough to have the last person to ask it be an @ss-hat, then you'll probably get yelled at. Please don't take it to heart.

Insults and demeaning comments notwithstanding, of course.

Anyway, welcome. I hope your experiences will be more enjoyable from now on. :)

[Jedi-Loreen]

Who's Jedi "Lorleen"? :rolleyes:

[ecko]

Greetings all,

Saarai: From a new guy perspective, I'm still waiting for Jedi Lorleen to come after me about something ;-)



Who's Jedi "Lorleen"? :rolleyes:

Oh come Loreen, he totally setup you up perfectly for better than that.:D
Too funny.

But seriously Saarai, I do agree with alot of what everyone says including yourself. Being polite is always... well, polite.

I know the feeling when someone first comes on here and feels overwhelmed by all the information. I have read and read and it still was not enough.
I followed the basic n00b threads, and then asked question about things I was not certain about. I made my first order, and still ended up making mistakes.

I do find that most people here generally want to help those that show they have a willingness to learn.

[Darth Biff]

Who's Jedi "Lorleen"? :rolleyes:

And there it is (and for a typo)...:oops:

Now I am a man.

[Jedi-Loreen]

Sorry, I had to.

Because you spelled my name wrong. :p

[Darth Biff]

J-Lo: You are now an entry in my spell checker. :)

[Jedi-Loreen]

wow, I'm honored.






I think :p

[Crystal Chambers]

One way to avoid this is for all to be aware of the title of the thread they're posting and making it a searchable topic to answer future questions.
If admins are frustrated with repeated questions, then changing thread titles to more accurate ones should help to avoid this in the future.

edit...how the search function doesn't work with 3 letter words makes it difficult too.

[DJMoonbass]

i usually just PM i person i can trust and that is eager to answer your questions no matter how noob.

but we still get these types of questions all the time

what is a blade holder?
how do you secure a blade?
how do i wire a MR board? (or anyboard for this matter?)
how many volts does this LED need?
what is MHS? (my favorite :D)


these questions are all easilly searchable and most of them are even stickied up top. the reason our senior members can get snappy is they have to answer the question again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. you get my point. they get tired of it.

and my biggest screw up: what bin code of amber is closest to gold?

i got flamed fairly well for this. when in fact the answer was a sticked thread one thread above mine. :mad: and i learned the hard way not to pull an attitude when i rightously got flamed.

some okay questions to post are questions with lots of variables. for example wiring two accent LEDs off a US board will using a PLI and other greeblies. these can go in wiring diagrams and what not. also problems that maybe you run into during construction that you need a quick answer for.

we dont expect you to read the ENTIRE forum. just to try and learn what you need to learn. LDMs sig helps alot. this whole saber thing can take YEARS to fully grasp since you need to learn lots of different skills.
Electronic laws and applications. building techniques (drilling, tapping, dremel fu, etc) properties of light and colorwave lengths, just so much stuff. we are here to help you but we tire of answering the same super simple questions OVER and OVER again.

granted though i do agree that some *cough* members can flame someone with a legit question. i have seen this. and i too think its unfair.

so basically befor you ask a question. identify what topic the question is. electronic based? building? then search in the appropriate sectors. 9 times out of 10 there stickied OR have a thread specifically for that. if that doesnt work try the search feature go advanced that sometimes help.

if that still doesnt work then throw a PM to one of our senior members. they wont be mad at that. if its a pretty legit question they will be happy to help. why some attitudes differ on the public boards and not in the PMs is beyond me;). most of the time though your questions will be about wiring stuff. THIS IS THE HARDEST PART OF THIS hobby, and sure there might be EVERYTHING there is to know about electronics here but you will never trully grasp it. the only thing that really works is trial and error (sometines expensive errors) and experience. we get this is hard and so our senior members wont get mad at you.

whew that was a mouthful!

[Eun Curl]

Saraai, this isn't a dis, I'm just letting you know, that you should be ready for an onslaught of negativity from any hobby related group that is as focused in genre as star wars or something similar. You see, to most people, probably not the original founders, but people who join the group soon after, are elitest, and see the group as a way to judge and exclude others, as has happened to them so often because of their love.

(Because lets face it, in school we all had to be just as secretive about our love of star wars as the gay kids were about their ***ual preference, unless we wanted to defend ourselves in the locker room with our plastic lightsaber)

And I think Loreen probably just likes being the "loose cannon", I mean, her sig touts "You must risk the darkness to see the light", clearly displaying that she has no fear of putting the hammer down, but then you were expecting her to slam harder than just pointing out the obvious, so again its just our expectations letting us down.

You just have to try to stay above it is all. Press on, and if all else fails, just get lost in loreen's beautiful face.

[Saarai]

Well no offense but, that is no excuse. It was done to you so do it to others? I'm sorry that's crap. This is not an elitist group, this is an open forum for ANYONE who is interested and wants to build their own lightsaber. I'm sorry but no, I will not let that comment slide. I'm sorry if you got picked on or made fun of in school, that's not the way it was for me. Irregardless this isn't anyones opportunity to repay whatever evil was bestowed on them. It's in the past leave it there. If you can't be nice and respectful and NOT make unneccessary comments, then you need to look at your life.

[Saarai]

i usually just PM i person i can trust and that is eager to answer your questions no matter how noob.

but we still get these types of questions all the time

what is a blade holder?
how do you secure a blade?
how do i wire a MR board? (or anyboard for this matter?)
how many volts does this LED need?
what is MHS? (my favorite :D)


these questions are all easilly searchable and most of them are even stickied up top. the reason our senior members can get snappy is they have to answer the question again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. you get my point. they get tired of it.

and my biggest screw up: what bin code of amber is closest to gold?

i got flamed fairly well for this. when in fact the answer was a sticked thread one thread above mine. :mad: and i learned the hard way not to pull an attitude when i rightously got flamed.

some okay questions to post are questions with lots of variables. for example wiring two accent LEDs off a US board will using a PLI and other greeblies. these can go in wiring diagrams and what not. also problems that maybe you run into during construction that you need a quick answer for.

we dont expect you to read the ENTIRE forum. just to try and learn what you need to learn. LDMs sig helps alot. this whole saber thing can take YEARS to fully grasp since you need to learn lots of different skills.
Electronic laws and applications. building techniques (drilling, tapping, dremel fu, etc) properties of light and colorwave lengths, just so much stuff. we are here to help you but we tire of answering the same super simple questions OVER and OVER again.

granted though i do agree that some *cough* members can flame someone with a legit question. i have seen this. and i too think its unfair.

so basically befor you ask a question. identify what topic the question is. electronic based? building? then search in the appropriate sectors. 9 times out of 10 there stickied OR have a thread specifically for that. if that doesnt work try the search feature go advanced that sometimes help.

if that still doesnt work then throw a PM to one of our senior members. they wont be mad at that. if its a pretty legit question they will be happy to help. why some attitudes differ on the public boards and not in the PMs is beyond me;). most of the time though your questions will be about wiring stuff. THIS IS THE HARDEST PART OF THIS hobby, and sure there might be EVERYTHING there is to know about electronics here but you will never trully grasp it. the only thing that really works is trial and error (sometines expensive errors) and experience. we get this is hard and so our senior members wont get mad at you.

whew that was a mouthful!

totally missed the point. Like I said prior, I know there are stupid questions, but you DON'T have to answer them. And secondly, like I said, I have no problem with, "dude look it up it's in the forum", what I have a problem with is the comment about someone having enough time to search the forum because they are disabled. That is completely uncalled for, and as a disabled person it did offend me tremendously. I wish I could find that thread again to show you, and when I do I will put it here, I've been trying to find it again. Some people act like if someone asks a question, you ABSOLUTELY HAVE to answer them. You don't. Just go on to the next one. If noone answers them you know what, it will force them to look it up themselves.

[$tarkiller]

I've been talking to another member about this recently, and ill day this. This hobby has grown over the years. There are members here that have been a part of this ever since the start. With growth comes experience. With experience comes a certain amount of ego. IMO, there are members here that enjoy flaming n00bz. But there are other members who enjoy helping. And if you post a question, expect to get both sides. Expect to get a sarcastic response from an egotistical member and an answer from someone willing to help you. Its kinda like shock therapy. As a n00b, you ask a dumb question and get flamed for it. I bet my CF you won't do it again. And if you do, then you deserve whatever you get. You have to understand that to a certain extent, there's gonna be negativity wherever you go. But the choice that you have is to keep going back or not. I hate to say this. It might come off as rude, but if you don't like how someone talks to a member, then you DON'T have to be a part of our community. But keep in mind. This is a hobby about building and sharing awesome sabers. Not a competition (as some other members have failed to understand). I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

[Marius423]

I think the moral of this entire thread is this. If you have a question and aren't able to find the answer or are a bit confused, you should be able to ask your questions without fear of being belittled or have snide remarks tossed at you. Now do I see this a ton? No not really. But even seeing it a few times can make a newcomer weary about posting, I know it made me feel that way.

I look at it this way, sarcasm doesn't go over very well when you are typing it out, so just reply to someones post in a manner you would like yours to be replied to.

/rant off
/bow
/gets ready for flame

[$tarkiller]

I think the moral of this entire thread is this. If you have a question and aren't able to find the answer or are a bit confused, you should be able to ask your questions without fear of being belittled or have snide remarks tossed at you. Now do I see this a ton? No not really. But even seeing it a few times can make a newcomer weary about posting, I know it made me feel that way.

I look at it this way, sarcasm doesn't go over very well when you are typing it out, so just reply to someones post in a manner you would like yours to be replied to.

/rant off
/bow
/gets ready for flame
Good call. But I repeat my last post.

[Eco]

The best thing I can recommend to avoid these questions all together is simple: When you purchase something from TCSS, comment on it, Rate it, and explain how you used it so that it has an item description!

[Marius423]

$tar I agree with your entire post. I was actually typing mine up at the same time as you did yours, so I didn't get a chance to read it before I did mine. I was just stating that people who need help don't want to be flamed and such. Now questions like " how does my blade stay in?" , "how do I wire this?" and other questions that have been answered time and time again, do deserve a little flame, but don't be a total a$$ about doing it. A simple link helps more then the emote eyeroll.

The one thing which should be brought up is the fact you will not get flamed if you ask specifics on something or need a little guideance as long as you explain everything and make sure the question isn't to general.

And with that, my itouch is dying so I'm off.

[Marius423]

The best thing I can recommend to avoid these questions all together is simple: When you purchase something from TCSS, comment on it, Rate it, and explain how you used it so that it has an item description!


Amen to that!

[Lord Maul]

I will say this... I only flame people when
A) They are being rowdy, disruptive, and insulting the Council
B) They repeatedly ask stupid questions that have been answered many times

The former is pretty self evident. The latter I'll elaborate on.

I have spent (no joke) probably 50+ hours cleaning, organizing, compiling, and sorting information on these forums to make them run more efficiently. After the forum change, I rebuilt the ENTIRE Thread Index which is over a hundred incredibly useful links, sorted by category. I continually update the "New to the Saber Scene" threads with new parts and information. I went through and looked at every single thread ever made on the forum and moved them when necessary so the search engine works better. I even renamed a bunch of them so they wouldn't be affected by the 4 letter minimum in the engine. LDM makes tutorials for new MR saber conversions and I am remaking the old ones to reflect updated kit technology. There's even a list of parts with hyperlinked text at the top of each tutorial for exactly what you will need for the conversion.

Do I get mad when people ask questions like "what is a blade holder for?" Or "What is the ID/OD of MHS parts?" or "how do I wire a MR sound board?" You bet your ass I do. Especially when the answers to those questions are in stickied threads.
http://forums.thecustomsabershop.com/showthread.php?t=2031
http://forums.thecustomsabershop.com/showthread.php?t=8593

If people are too lazy to read a thread that is essentially titled "If you are new, START HERE" then I will yell at them. I take it rather personally as I put a TON of work into keeping all of this stuff updated.


When people ask a legitimate question, then of course I will help them. If you just want to be spoonfed, then this is not the forum for you.

DIY sabers. Do it yourself sabers. This acronym not only refers to building a saber yourself, but researching and figuring out how to build a saber yourself.

[Eun Curl]

@ Lord Maul, as someone else already pointed out (Saarai), nobody has an obligation to respond to a question they feel is dumb/pointless/lazy, all the more reason not to respond to it and move on, unless you feel wounded by it in some way and now you have to retaliate at that person because they've been so incensitive to the amount of work that you've put into a system that keeps you or anyone else from having to answer such a question.

@ Saarai, I wasn't excusing the flamers/rude people, I was being sarcastic, and trying to comfort you, because some people, like China, just do whatever the kitten they want, and it will always be that way, and sometimes the only defense against it is just to know its like that and let it blow off. Basically just the same thing starkiller eventualy said. PS: I used to be disabled too, High Five!

@Starkiller, I know you were adressing Saarai, and I think Saarai is probably already aware of the fact that there are gonna be a holes wherever you go, but I think the reason she ventured forth to ask her original question is legit. I mean seriously, why can't we all just get along? wtf? Why cant you just say "this is already posted somewhere else go find it" or then give the link and say look harder yourself next time. I mean, within 2 days of finding this community I came up with 3 unique questions that hadn't been answered anywhere on the site, and one council member was wanting to flame so hard that she called me annoying for calling myself a noob.

Uneccessary, and I support Saarai's mature approach in adressing the issue. Of all people, the people in this community should be understanding of each other. Don't spoon feed da babies, but don't try to poop on every porshe you see either.

[Lord Maul]

@ Lord Maul, as someone else already pointed out (Saarai), nobody has an obligation to respond to a question they feel is dumb/pointless/lazy, all the more reason not to respond to it and move on, unless you feel wounded by it in some way and now you have to retaliate at that person because they've been so incensitive to the amount of work that you've put into a system that keeps you or anyone else from having to answer such a question.


No one has an obligation, but the question shouldn't be asked in the first place. All the info is there for the basic questions, people just need to stop being so lazy. Just because you are on the internet doesn't mean you will be spoonfed by nerds who live here.

[Saarai]

Lord Maul, that is alot of work I know, and I whole heartedly appreciate all the work you put into it, and can understand you getting frustrated at stupid questions. I'm not even saying a LITTLE flame, tiny bit, may not be warranted some. My point is, towards the ones who get personal, or like someone already said, was just itching to flame so got on someone for calling themselves a noob.

There is a right and wrong way to go about doing things. Getting personal with someone because they ask a stupid question is not the way. Me personally, on some of the forums I've monitered in my life, stupid questions simply got ignored. The askers either found the answer themselves, or left. You know why Jesus said to turn the other cheek? It wasn't to be a pacifist. It was because in those days, if a Roman slapped you once across the cheek, he was saying he was better than you, if he slapped you twice across the cheek, he was bringing himself down to your level and embarrassing himself.

So yeah, turn the other cheek. It may feel an insult when someone asks, "D'uh what is a blade retention screw?" but, when you in turn flame him, and others start flamming him, the idiot then looks like the victim and you come out looking like the one in wrong. And maybe not to the veterans, but to those who are new, and are thinking of joining this hobby, yeah it doesn't look good. And may turn people away from it alltogether. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. If you want people to join, and get their friends to join, i'm not saying but kiss but, but at least look professional.

And my original suggestion stands, why not divide the forums/access to Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced. That way those who really want to help the newbs can troll the beginner forums looking to help, and anyone else can simply hang in the intermediate/advanced forums and not have to see posts like, "Which side of the soldering iron do I use?".

[Scars Unseen]

And my original suggestion stands, why not divide the forums/access to Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced. That way those who really want to help the newbs can troll the beginner forums looking to help, and anyone else can simply hang in the intermediate/advanced forums and not have to see posts like, "Which side of the soldering iron do I use?".

There really is no need. We have a beginner's section. It consists of the many carefully indexed topics of which LM just spoke. Because that's where a "beginner" should be: reading of that which has come before. At least, at first. And how do you define intermediate? How would you separate intermediate from advanced? In my mind, you are a beginner until you've built your first saber from the planning to the install. Which places me at the level of... beginner. Still. I've been doing research and asking what I hope to be thought out questions(haven't had my head bitten off too many times, so I guess I'm at least staying above annoyingly common). I plan on building my first saber once I move.

The point is that this is a site for people that are willing to put in the hours needed to learn at least the basics. All of the information, and I mean all of it, that is needed to build an MHS saber, to include light and sound, can be found very easily by someone who has taken the time to read the "Start Here" section of these forums. No search feature needed. That means that if you are asking how to secure a polycarbonate blade into an MHS blade holder(for example), you have shown that you couldn't even be bothered to read the second stickied thread in the same section(it explains the MHS system and links to a tutorial).

The proper response to this sort of behavior is neither to flame nor to ignore. The proper response would be to briefly tell the person that if they aren't willing to do even the most basic of research, then perhaps they should find a different hobby. This is not cruelty, it is merely the truth. Without fully understanding what to do, one could potentially destroy a sizable sum's worth of parts and electronics. In fact, that's very likely even if you do understand what you're doing, as I'm sure some of our veterans can attest.

As for elitism in niches, well I'm sorry, but take a look at the world around you before you label people so. As has been mentioned, some of these people are not only well versed in the technologies and methods involved in saber smithing, they pioneered them. Would you deride the chief engineer of Boeing for not teaching you how to safety wire two bolts together? Would you chastise a professor of mathematics because he didn't feel it was worth his time to teach you your multiplication tables? Heck, does your regional manager of McDonalds show people how to operate the fry machine? The people on this forum are far more accessible than you think. They just aren't here to parrot basic tutorials for you.

[Saarai]

Talking about reading thouroughly, you obviously only read what you wanted. I am not asking anyone to parrot what's in the help section. Heck more than once in this thread have I said I understand a response of, "Dude it's in the forum look it up." And i"ve more than once in this thread praised and thanked those "elders". What I"m saying is there is no need to get personal and say something about someones disability. IF you are going to sit there and make comments about reading somethign thoroughly than do it yourself.

What I'm saying is yeah, until someone builds a saber from beginning to end, they not have access to the intermediate advanced levels. This way would weed out those who are committed to this hobby, but also keep stupid questions away from those who may get pissed and say something totaly out of line. All the research, all the information on building a lightsaber would be there, and once you build your saber, post a pic, then you gain access to the intermediate advanced group. Because honestly, if seeing stupid questions is going to compelle someone to get nasty with someone new, it be better to remove that temptation alltogether.

This way, if you see a stupid question, it's because you chose to go into the beginner group, and you chose to read that particular question. If you don't want to deal with that, you can stay in the intermediate, advanced group and deal with the more likely intricate and thought provoking questions.

And dude, seriously, who said anythign about elitism or niches? I'm talking about basic human rights here. Anyone who would or can sit there and say it's ok to use someones disability as a means to bilittle them with a straight face, needs a reality check. That's what I"m talking about, that's what this thread is about. Now please, read the whole thread before responding so you don't start a tangent that has nothing to do with what's being discussed.

[Scars Unseen]

I believe my response was in line with the overall tone of this thread. But to be fair, I decided to rise to the challenge and read more thouroughly. More specifically, I read every single post you've made. Guess what I didn't find? Anyone replying to a single question you've asked in a manner that would prompt a thread like this. So I'm going to apologize for allowing myself to be drawn into this discussion. I have my thoughts on the matter. For the time being they shall remain my own.

[Saarai]

Yes the first part of your response was, I was addressin the elitism niche comment. Because quite frankly I never implied that once, nor do I want that idea being spread in this thread. It's not elitism if you've been doing this for upteen years and or pioneered advances in the hobby. My point in all this is to find a happy medium so the "elders" don't have to deal with stupidity, and newbies don't get roasted alive, or worse someone decides they don't want to do this because of a nasty response to someones question.

Put yourself in a newbies shoes. He's new, trying to find out how to do something, looks it up. Comes across the latest in a looooooong line of stupide questions on a certain topic. But he's new he doesn't know it's a stupid question, and he reads what the person asked, then scrolls down to see if anyone answered since it's what he's looking for.

Now this person is doing what you're all saying he should do in searching the forum to find the answer, but in looking he sees reply after reply after reply of experienced people roasting the guy for the question, and doesn't really get the answer he's looking for.

What does that tell this person? How does it look? Quite frankly I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people decided to go somewhere else after reading that. How would you feel if that was your first experience not knowing anything about this hobby?

Like I said it's not elitism, it's respect, and professionalism. Its remembering to (yes cheesy golden rule) treat others as you would want to be treated, and respect each other. So yeah I came down hard on the last part there because I don't want lines to be drawn in this thread and make it seem like an us vs them thing. It's a trying to understand both sides so there is mutual respect and find a solution so deriding comments about someones disability don't happen again.

[Darth Biff]

Greetings all,

Saarai, dude, just let it go. This is now a topic of flame-worthy responses only.

There are plenty of people here who are/will be willing to help you out with questions. Are there some "bad people" in this forum? Well, I haven't been unlucky enough to run into them yet, but statistically speaking, sure. There would have to be. If you run into them, ignore them. I would. If they're uncivil towards you (or anyone else), we'll see it, and from what I gleen from the moderators around here, they don't put up with that kind of cr@p.

Seriously friend, just let it go. Do your best, try to find answers on your own, and if you're stuck, ask questions.

[Saarai]

You're absolutely right, I was actually letting it go, I just saw that last comment,and wanted to make sure like I said it doesn't become an us vs them thing. Since I started it, (i'm wierd this way) I feel its like my responsibility it doesn't go off the deep end. I don't want people to use this just to bash the "elders". Cause that's just as wrong.

[Crystal Chambers]

I think you're making a bigger deal out of this then needed. You made some great points but the debate is dragging on and now this is just making the whole issue of asking questions worse.

There are a variety of people here so the occasional mistake in social conduct is bound to occur and you can't blame anyone but the individual responsible. Like any community specifically internet you need to be tolerant of everyone and of course the potential for taking things out of context.

The whole experience/skill segregation is silly. The forum already has a welcome mat so to speak with a welcome, glossary, tutorials, etc. so the basics are very accessible.

Maybe it's time to "turn the other cheek". You could have spent this energy doing research on saber building to avoid the need to ask more questions yourself.


edit..missed your last post while typing...good call!

[DJMoonbass]

wow. this is alot of discussion. basically i just learned to live with community as it is. you cant change the attitude here. it is what it is. what i have learned the hard way to do: i post sabers, i talk with people, i comment on sabers and i help new members always, and i PM my friends when i have a question, thats all i do. if i get flamed i let it roll off. i no longer take it personally. that just leads to MORE problems. trust me I KNOW! ;)

[Invisas1979]

This is a discussion that must come up every 6 months or so. I've had this same issue with the elders or olde guarde as I like to call them.

However, as people have rightly said this is a do it yourself forum which is all about building and creating lightsabers.

I read a lot before I even wrote my first post, why? Because I don't like to look stupid (which still happens from time to time) and because here, like the outside world, people appreciate hard work.

The longstanding members of this forum have not spent alot of time and considerable effort to write the tutorials and threads which make this hobby possible. To have new people completely ignore it and ask a 'newb' question or 1000 is just a touch dis-respectful.

Everyone who is new, starts a 'I'm new' post and 9 out of 10 replies will be, read read read. So don't complain then you don't and get flamed for it. However there's no excuse for flaming someone and everyone else joining in to belittle them, this is just harsh.

Some people have moved on from using this forum, but the worrying thing for me is how infrequently some of the more experianced saber builders post. I can think of a fair few who I rearly see on here now and this is down to people taking this forum from granted.

Me, I'd rather hear from the people who bring something to the table than those who can't even apply a work ethic to answer their own questions in a forum full of answers.

[$tarkiller]

I see this thread getting out of hand soon. Like the others have stated, let it go. It isnt worth all this hassle.

[DJMoonbass]

i think this is a good thread. i dont see it getting out of hand IMO. were just poeple expressing our opinions. ;) but like i said IMO

[Saarai]

yeah it's good to express feelings, but I think anything on the issue has been said, anything further would either just be going in circles, or opening the door for bunny trails into directions I do not intend, nor should they go, so I agree that at this point for now the thread has done what it set out to do, and barring another insensitive flaming is dead.

Basically the point is think before you burn, think before you ask, put yourself in the elders shoes, and remember what it was like when you first started at something you had no clue how to do.

[Jedi-Loreen]

Your last sentence sums it up nicely.

[Simmo]

how the search function doesn't work with 3 letter words makes it difficult too.


That is true. I just got this whilst searching for Lux V's, as I notice they're not in the store:


The following words are either very common, too long, or too short and were not included in your search : lux, V, where, to, buy

That's my entire search. But it seems like such a noobish question that I wouldn't post it anywhere here. Now maybe because it could have been considered soliciting and it automatically blocks 'where to buy' I don't know, but it sure is useless to me!

[Lord Maul]

The filter blocks words that are under 3 characters or are just incredibly common. If 'where' 'to' and 'buy' were included in your search, then every single thread on the forum would have come up.

It does put some restrictions on what you can search for in regards to Luxeons.

For a Luxeon V, since they are now discontinued, it'll be tough to find them anywhere. I would just try a google search for them.

[mihunai]

I stil think some basic links like those in LM's sig should be part of some Welcoming message,
I mean, as soon as you register you get a PM with the basics.

That alone should save a whole lot of 'bladeholder' threads, if you know what i mean...

I know there allready is a topic that holds all the basics, but since there
seem to be enough people that miss that particular part,
i still think it would be worth the effort.
Just one final 'spoon' full of information to filter all the noobish question
and leave room room for less obvious questions.

Just my 2cents...

mTm